Birthstar: Frontline, Proof of Concept: Help Wanted...

[rdaly]

Birthstar: Frontline has positions available for any highly experienced Unreal Tournament 2004 artists and coders. Birthstar: Frontline is a proof of concept that will be taken to publishers in the industry in order to get funding for the full project. Matthew Collins, a screenwriter, is the lead designer for this project. His partner is David Carson, (director of "Star Trek: Generations.")

In its present state, Birthstar: Frontline has the potential to be the next great gaming IP. It's hyper-realistic gameplay is similar to "Ghost Recon 2" or "Rainbow Six" with the intensity and scale of "Call of Duty," wrapped in a gritty far-future science fiction setting. It will also be the first game to incorporate sixteen-player cooperative play into the game's story with unique characters each with their individual roles in the military unit that is the focus of the game's story. Needless to say, it is an ambitious project that has the potential to revolutionize how games are made. A design document has been written, a small team comprised of a few modelers, concept artists, and designers has been formed.

Matthew regularly consults with Seamus Blackley (inventor of the X-Box) and Larry Shapiro (President of EA Australia) who are now heading up the gaming department at his agency, CAA.

What we need here at Birthstar is a group of skilled level designers, coders, skinners and artists to create the first mission of this game for the purpose of raising money to finish it. At that point, there's a slight possibility that anyone who has worked on the proof of concept will continue to work on the full game. Your chances of continuing work depend wholly on your dedication to the game and the amount of work you put forth for us. That being said, we cannot guarantee a position.

We are very serious and passionate about this game. If anyone is curious or interested in being a part of this project,contact us at the following email address: [email protected].

PS. This is not a modification that will be released to the masses. This is a proof of concept that is going to be taken to prospective publishers. That being said, DO NOT apply if you don't have a solid portfolio to show us. Having "shipped" mod experience is a plus.

 

[katanaX]

This is probably a scam of some sort. Look at this thread:

http://forum.moddb.com/thread/10357/

They have no website and use hotmail and gmail accounts..Just be warned.

 

[rdaly]

This is probably a scam of some sort. Look at this thread:

http://forum.moddb.com/thread/10357/

They have no website and use hotmail and gmail accounts..Just be warned.

KatanaX, this is not a 'scam.' I have phone conversations with Matthew and maintain contact with him on a constant basis. I have also had a conference call with David Carson, his partner; I know it's him because I've heard his voice before in interviews.

Please don't turn this thread into the one on moddb.com. We're looking for a few good, dedicated guys to help us out here. While we have been in contact with the Red Orchestra guys, we still need to fill out the ranks a little bit more.

See this for the opportunity it is.

 

[JDThomason]

Hey,
I'll vouche for Ryan. Birthstar: Frontline is truely all he says. I'm also a member of the team, and have had multiple phone coversations with Matt, and have talked with David breifly. Having hotmail and gmail accounts means nothing honestly. It's as real as can be, and its the oppurtunity of a life time.

jd

 

[RegularX]

Hey,
I'll vouche for Ryan. Birthstar: Frontline is truely all he says. I'm also a member of the team, and have had multiple phone coversations with Matt, and have talked with David breifly. Having hotmail and gmail accounts means nothing honestly. It's as real as can be, and its the oppurtunity of a life time.

jd

That might be all grand and true, but you guys are going about this very oddly.

Without some preliminary info about the design, premise and status of the project it might be hard to attract people. OK, so it's a 16 player coop realism mod in a sci fi setting. That's interesting but not entirely informative. Telling us how ambitious it is or how great it will be is, well, even less.

Who is on your team already? Is this class based? Skill based? Are there vehicles? How big are the maps? Are the maps more linear mission-based, goal orientated or are they more open-ended objectives?

So you're not telling much, but you expect people to resond with full portfolios and previous experience. This is for a project not intended for public release, but intended to gain you capital - money which may or may not go back to the people who help you build this proof of concept? Would people involved at least be able to show their work to others or is this all NDA?

This, and lots of other forums, are flooded with "great ideas" just about daily, or at least weekly. They're usually people with little to no modding experience hoping a bunch of other people will build their idea for them. And here you want to do that for profit with no promise that it will profit the people who will build it?

My suggestion would be to either open this up publically, get a website, make it a public mod, etc. Or try another channel like gamedev forums or other people who might already be entrenched professionally.

If for some reason you can't build a website, at least write a design document and put up a wiki page about the project. But don't try and sell it on ambition alone.

 

[JDThomason]

That might be all grand and true, but you guys are going about this very oddly...

Hey RegularX,
We're not releasing designs docs, or scripts to the public for reasons. Anyone interested in joining will get all of the information they need to decide whether or not they want to join. Ofcourse we have design docs, preliminary work, a strong and growing team, a great script, but we wouldn't want to just dump all of that out to everyone. This is *not* a public project.

As far as the money issue: Possibly due to the lack of information, you're wrong about the developers profit. We're currently building a demo. No one can be payed for a demo. We couldn't even sell a demo and make profit. What happens after that is a different story though. Once the demo is done it will be taken to development companies and such. Then we will have an actual budget, in which anyone who continues on the project development into the full game, will receive payment, as in any job.

Thanks for the time,
JD Thomason

 

[RegularX]

As far as the money issue: Possibly due to the lack of information, you're wrong about the developers profit. We're currently building a demo. No one can be payed for a demo. We couldn't even sell a demo and make profit. What happens after that is a different story though. Once the demo is done it will be taken to development companies and such. Then we will have an actual budget, in which anyone who continues on the project development into the full game, will receive payment, as in any job.

You're missing your own point I think. I never said you were trying to profit from a demo - but you're still trying to profit from the work of others.

What we need here at Birthstar is a group of skilled level designers, coders, skinners and artists to create the first mission of this game for the purpose of raising money to finish it. At that point, there's a slight possibility that anyone who has worked on the proof of concept will continue to work on the full game. Your chances of continuing work depend wholly on your dedication to the game and the amount of work you put forth for us. That being said, we cannot guarantee a position.

So let's say I'm a modeller. I join your project and make some models. Because the project is super-secret, I can't show the models to anyone or use it as part of my portfolio. So it's no good to me for trying to get a job in the industry. If you go and sell the proof and actually raise money, there's no guarantee that I'd see any cash out of out or get a job out of it. Slight possibility? So you guys would end up keeping all the assets and then decide who stays and who goes? With a public project at least I could point to some models and show a recruiter "I did that" - but you guys wouldn't even be allowing that.

So basically you're asking people to put in several hours of work in the hopes that a) you can actually sell this and b) they'd actually get to tag along or else c) they've just essentially wasted all those hours.

That's just not really the way mod communities work. Most of us do this with no real profit motive in mind, just so that we can get work out there and share it with others. The whole notion of an NDA is somewhat antithetical and usually deep sixes a mod project all on it's own.

I'm not trying to be negative here. I'm sure your intentions are honest and you just want to try and make a good game. But basically you're not coming here recruiting for a mod - you're asking for some really cheap labor. I don't know why anyone would work with such restrictions and risks when there are dozens and dozens of other projects out there not placing them.

 

[JDThomason]

We never said you can't use your models in a portfolio. They are indeed your property and you may show them to whom ever you'd like if you're trying to get a job. Also, from Ryans post it makes it sound like we just want temp members ("cheap labor") who only have a slite possibility of making it any futher than the demo, but that's not what he means I don't think. Anyone who actually joins the team and helps us, is going to move on with the team, as long as the Dev. Company allows (which we plan to fight for). We're not looking for cheap labor, we're looking for a long term team to go all the way with. As long as they show good work ethic and do a good job on their work, they have a job (that is, assuming we get the budget). Also, this project isn't "Super-Secret", its just not public.

People put hours of work into mods for no profit, and no gain at all other than a better portfolio. All they have at the end is a product. And at the end of this demo that is what we will have. In the end, if we don't sell this, I'm sure we would atleast release the demo for the hell of it. But thats not what we're planning on.

I'm not sure what "risks" you were talking about, considering there arn't any. Its not a risk to work on a development project by any means.

I would just stop trying to argue about this, because there's really no point (and I' not completely sure what your point is..). Theres no point that you could argue, its a simple thing. We're a Dev team, working together on a project, and we're recruiting more members. Plain and simple. No risks.

 

[RegularX]

We never said you can't use your models in a portfolio. They are indeed your property and you may show them to whom ever you'd like if you're trying to get a job.

Then I guess I find your reasons for not making it a public project pretty odd. If anyone on your team can publish their work, then it's only as private as anyone on your team decides to make it. If I could write code for the project and then put up a wiki tutorial about that code then it's pretty much public. If the production crew is retaining the rights to their respective works then there isn't anything to keep them from reusing them later in a different project or putting them on the net - which is a bit odd for a project intended from the outset for eventual commercial release.

I' not completely sure what your point is

My point is that you've posted some very unspecific information about a very unspecific project. I'm trying to help you by pointing out the specific things that most people in the mod community would want to know about before considering joining a project under these circumstances. There are distinct differences between a commercial dev team and a mod team. Just by trying to create a private demo for the purposes of commercial release you raise very thorny issues about rights and compensation and I would recommend clarifying them if you intend people to respond.

 

[[SAS]Solid Snake]

Hmmm, I agree with RegularX on all points. The way you guys are attempting to recruit/hire people is a little odd to say the least.

Anyone who actually joins the team and helps us, is going to move on with the team, as long as the Dev. Company allows (which we plan to fight for).

You obviously haven't dealt very much with publishers. If they want you to change something you don't really have much of say. Either you change or they pull their cash out. You can fight every tooth and nail for what you want, and you may get it ... but if it flops then you've got a serious issue later on.

Then we will have an actual budget, in which anyone who continues on the project development into the full game, will receive payment, as in any job.

You will need more information than that. Will you relocate the members to the job destination (It is best to have all members of a team in one location), will you support them in the relocation, will people be paid enough to continue their life style, etc.

I'm not sure what "risks" you were talking about, considering there arn't any. Its not a risk to work on a development project by any means.

The risk is time. Your looking for professionals not amatuers by the sounds of it in terms of level of skill. You guys aren't looking for people who say have just started using Max the last couple of days. Thus the risk is that your asking people to work almost full time on a pre production project which may not go anywhere. So do people quit their jobs, their life style to join the projec? If you say no, then wll you recruit anyone as everyone with a normal job can't do lots of work at once (i.e it may take a few weeks to produce one final model).

There are a lot of other issues, but this isn't really appropriate forums to ask for professional level help without payment. Actually I'm not sure where you could ask for that ... ... ...

 

[JDThomason]

You keep saying more information is needed. More information will be given to any one who contacts Ryan or Matt. Obviously there are answers to every question. Publishers can be dealt with to an extent. They want our product, plus regardless, we're the team that made what they want, and there shouldn't be any huge issues with that.

As far as your question of "Will you relocate the members to the job destination (It is best to have all members of a team in one location), will you support them in the relocation, will people be paid enough to continue their life style, etc."

Yes, we would *like* to move all team members to L.A. And obviously they'd be able to support themselves, or else they wouldn't come out. Correct?

"Thus the risk is that your asking people to work almost full time on a pre production project which may not go anywhere."

We never said anything about full time. And full time isn't required to get the job done. For some members, there are some time constraints, but as long as they are getting the apropriate work done, we're fine. We never said we wanted this demo done in a very short amount of time, or that we wanted people to quit their jobs.

And this no different than joining a mod, no one can ever say for sure what will happen, so therefore in this business, risk is a given.

JD

 

[RegularX]

And this no different than joining a mod, no one can ever say for sure what will happen, so therefore in this business, risk is a given.

And that's the thrust of your misunderstanding. You're making the assumption that all mods are intended for eventual commercial release - which is false. Virtually no mod project makes that assumption - whereas it's the basis of your project. So you don't have the luxury of ignoring these issues - and not posting them upfront or at least making them readily available isn't beneficial to either your team or people considering joining. Adding in the potential for profit changes things drastically. You said you talked to the RO guys, go ask them about how MSUC winnings can complicate things - and that's comparatively simple to this.

The fact that you're even trying to debate this seems indicative that your team hasn't completely thought this out either. You shouldn't be leaving out details like "you might have to move to LA" when trying to recruit people, or force them to fish those details out.

 

[JDThomason]

No no no,
lol, sorry, you misunderstood what I was saying. I know that mods arn't made for profit. I will post a reply shortly, sorry for the short post.

JD

 

[[SAS]Solid Snake]

go ask them about how MSUC winnings can complicate things

Wasn't complicated for me RegularX, as I was the only one working on my mod aka one man team.

I'm not sure what "risks" you were talking about, considering there arn't any. Its not a risk to work on a development project by any means.

And this no different than joining a mod, no one can ever say for sure what will happen, so therefore in this business, risk is a given.

... so there was no risks before, and now there are risks?

I think you guys may need to iron everything out. Also what will you do if someone fails to properly negotiate a deal with the final payment (say he wanted 100K per year, which is ridiculous but still) and thus he/she pulls out and then there is a huge fuss in who owns the 'demo' material. Sure the 'demo' material could be pulled out, but ... you get some pretty bad feelings left behind.

There are risks for you guys too.

The risk is that you may get someone who is an imposter or sends you stuff which isn't entirely his/hers. This is a huge problem since the amount of free material on the internet is to say the least, not small. Thus you have an possible issue that someone elses work may have reached into your 'demo' which doesn't actually belong to you. And the person's skill may be lacking, and the things sent over to you are not entirely of the person's creation... this isn't a real concern for mod groups since their final products are usually for free, but in this case it can come back to bite.

There are many other risks looking for help, especially in this area for a potential commercialized product. Very few people have a large portfolio of what they've done in the past, and current mod developers are either busy with thier own mod or have quit modding (moved onto other things in life).

 

[JDThomason]

Wasn't complicated for me RegularX, as I was the only one working on my mod aka one man team.





... so there was no risks before, and now there are risks?

I think you guys may need to iron everything out. Also what will you do if someone fails to properly negotiate a deal with the final payment (say he wanted 100K per year, which is ridiculous but still) and thus he/she pulls out and then there is a huge fuss in who owns the 'demo' material. Sure the 'demo' material could be pulled out, but ... you get some pretty bad feelings left behind.

There are risks for you guys too.

The risk is that you may get someone who is an imposter or sends you stuff which isn't entirely his/hers. This is a huge problem since the amount of free material on the internet is to say the least, not small. Thus you have an possible issue that someone elses work may have reached into your 'demo' which doesn't actually belong to you. And the person's skill may be lacking, and the things sent over to you are not entirely of the person's creation... this isn't a real concern for mod groups since their final products are usually for free, but in this case it can come back to bite.

There are many other risks looking for help, especially in this area for a potential commercialized product. Very few people have a large portfolio of what they've done in the past, and current mod developers are either busy with thier own mod or have quit modding (moved onto other things in life).

Peoples original work isn't a risk at all. Being a futuristic mod, we have completly original works, so you wouldn't be able to find some free model onlin eto match up with ours (like you'd be able to for say a WW2 mod). Things are ironed out, we're talking about *your* questions and concerns right now, not our procedure, so there's no need to tell us what we need to have ironed out.

Also, modders arn't the only people there are to recruite.

I think you guys may need to iron everything out. Also what will you do if someone fails to properly negotiate a deal with the final payment (say he wanted 100K per year, which is ridiculous but still) and thus he/she pulls out and then there is a huge fuss in who owns the 'demo' material. Sure the 'demo' material could be pulled out, but ... you get some pretty bad feelings left behind.

There will be no failure to negotiate. I'm not positive (I don't take care of this, I am not the producer, or director), but it works like this: Any work turned into the birthstar project, are owned by Birthstar, or Edge Media. If a deal was worked out to have a salary, you wouldn't be payed in a lump sum, you would get payed like any other job on a weekly, or bi-weekly basis. If someone decides to leave, then that is their deal, and we won't be concerned about their feelings. This is business, not counciling.

lol, all in all, we like many others in the business, are attempting to our best ability to create a game. We have it worked out, ironed out and all of the above, if you want to know more, contact Ryan or Matt, then you can have any question answered.

Peace
JD

 

[JDThomason]

The fact that you're even trying to debate this seems indicative that your team hasn't completely thought this out either. You shouldn't be leaving out details like "you might have to move to LA" when trying to recruit people, or force them to fish those details out.

That was a detail to be presented when someone was interested and contacted us. Thats what I've been saying all along. Also, that is a theoretical detail btw. Assuming we get a budget from a publisher.

JD

 

[[SAS]Solid Snake]

You have contradicting yourself many times already JDThomason.

Being a futuristic mod, we have completly original works, so you wouldn't be able to find some free model onlin eto match up with ours

Are you sure? Have you seen how much free content there is on the web involving Star Trek, Babylon 5. With those are bases it can be possible to make them into what you want.

Any work turned into the birthstar project, are owned by Birthstar, or Edge Media.

They are indeed your property and you may show them to whom ever you'd like if you're trying to get a job.

So who exactly does the work belong to. Birthstar ... or the person who created it?

There will be no failure to negotiate.

I fail to see the logic in this. Negotiation begins when you start recruiting, and start producing a commercial product. They want something and you guys want something. If the exchange isn't agreed upon then the negotiation has failed.

I guess, well, good luck in finding people.

 

[RegularX]

That was a detail to be presented when someone was interested and contacted us. Thats what I've been saying all along. Also, that is a theoretical detail btw. Assuming we get a budget from a publisher.

JD

So basically there's this laundry list of issues that you're positive will all be worked at if someone emails the right person, but for some reason you guys can't post any of that information publically, either by a website of on a forum.

Sorry if that sounds sketchy to me. People are essentially applying for a job with your company, not signing up for a mod project. I think the least you can do is make the same kind of information a normal employer would make while they were looking for employment.

These are not theoretical details - they're basic details that anyone considering working with you guy should have before starting any work with you. These are details above and beyond normal mod recruitment, so coming to a mod recruitment forum and leaving those details out is misleading and unprofessional. Even for a normal mod project, the information being provided is pretty light - so assuming that all questions will be answered in an email doesn't sound quite right. How are we to know that if somebody didn't think to ask the kinds of things that Solid Snake and I are asking now that they'd even be discussed in an email? We're bringing up completely valid questions here and you seem to be acting surprised that we'd even mention them. So why should I trust that they'd all be answered elsewhere?

I don't take care of this, I am not the producer, or director

Do they not have access to the internet? We're asking a basic question about rights of ownership for work produced and you're just offering a guess? What do you mean "if a deal were to be worked out with a salary"? Wouldn't all deals have a salary? Or maybe anyone who contacts you needs to know to ask about that stuff?

Point is this - the mod community isn't a great place to coming knocking for free production work on a commercial venture. By not offering up all the details about this project up front, it really sounds like some inexperienced people could easily get hoodwinked because they didn't know what to ask. I'm not saying that's your intention - I'm saying if this is a really a commercial venture then you guys should be treating it as such, and not sneaking by treating it like a mod project which "might just be the next big thing".

If you want to start a mod project, come here and tell us enough about the project to get people excited about joining.

If you want to make a commercial game, then describe specifically what you are offering in compensation for work delivered. If that's not money, then detail what it is. Because right now it is "the potential to be invited to perhaps come to LA and continue to work on the game for some kind of salary (if you remembered to ask about that sort of thing)."

 

[JDThomason]

The point that you're missing is that this isn't a commercial development yet. It's a non-budget project, that may some day go commercial, if all goes to plan.

Projects exist that are neither Commerical, or Modifications. This is a Proof-of-concept project that will give anyone, from the modding community or game dev. community the oppurtunity to get into the business of game design.

 

[RegularX]

The point that you're missing is that this isn't a commercial development yet. It's a non-budget project, that may some day go commercial, if all goes to plan.

The point you guys are missing is that because you're doing this to get a budget, it is a commercial project. Non-budget doesn't equal non-profit. It just means you don't have any money right now. You still intend to use people's work to make money.

In fact, your initial post is all about who you guys know in the industry. You're name dropping to prove that this game will get built, but you're trying to act like since it might not get built - it's really not a commercial venture. That's completely nonsensical.

Tell you what. When you walk into that demo meeting, if you ever get the demo built, be sure to tell whatever publisher/dev company/invester that you're showing it to that you've paid for none of the rights to any of the material they are about to see - and then see what kind of response you'll get.

You aren't writing a mod. You aren't writing a free game to give to the public. You're writing a demonstration with the express purpose to gain capital. That's a commercial venture. You're apparently trying to sidestep all the normal conversations you'd need to build such a thing by labelling it a mod.

And by doing so, anyone who is working for you that doesn't either have a) a written agreement about what happens when their work is used for profit or b) money in exchange for goods is putting themselves at risk. As Solid Snake points out - so are you ... because you'll have pieces of work that you have questionable rights to work that you're putting in front of investors. Not a good position for you or the investors.

So don't try and tell me or anyone else that you're building a mod and that nobody needs to be worrying about this. You're basically looking at the fundamental difference between a mod and a commercial project and ignoring it completely. Would a professional agree to work with you sans contract or pay? I don't think so. So don't expect the mod community to simply because they aren't making a living out of this.

If you guys aren't willing to be up front and state specifically the terms of this deal, lay all the facts on the table, and discuss them openly on this forum - then I don't know why anyone in the mod community would help you.