Assault or Duel?
- Thread starter Sportaçus
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Assault was pretty much the only reason I got in to the UT games. Each one that has not had it, I have played little (UT3) or not at all (2k3).
99 was the best with all its little tricks, but 2k4 was awesome with the movement.
99 was the best with all its little tricks, but 2k4 was awesome with the movement.
I didn't really like Assault that much myself, however, I have always enjoyed playing Deathmatch. I like being best at killing all the others. Assault has gone missing and now we want in anyway. Yea, I miss Domination, Bombing Run and Assault, even thou I play Deathmatch mostly.
I actually enjoyed 2k4 Assault slightly more than UT's Assault. To me it played differently and even though the trick jumping was less, it felt more free in terms of gameplay. That probably doesn't make any sense, but whatever.
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2k4's Assault was probably superior. Nearly every stock UT99 Assault map could be done in under a minute by a coordinated team.
yea that was the main problem...
Assault fails (online) because after the maps get exploited (and they always do) its not any fun... Assault, even in UT99, just turns into a who can finish the map in 30 seconds contest, which in most players opinions wasnt fun. yea Assault had a small hardcore fanbase, but not like CTF and TDM used to... if UT had a big bad sister named Unreal Warfare that was really a Wargame, thatd be different, but UT aint WW2 or 3 or 4...
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What you don't like about 99, is what every ASers has loved about it. I loved 2k4 AS, but it is very linear and rigid, not much flexibility causing to much to be put on fragging.
I would say it was better online because you could coordinate with a team. Not much fun taking the 'bender through the fence on Junk against bots, or going through the defenders spawn on Fallen against bots.
2k4 AS failed because of race maps, crappy user created maps and people being to lazy to learn. Even though they gimped it down from 99 to 2k4, it was still to hard for people. The ones that wanted to learn, like JD and c5, had fun and enjoyed it
Hey JD <3
PS
99 AS is still going strong, 2k4 AS is dead and has been dead since mid 2005, it was kept on life support by Dry Lobster and Omni, but still dead. That should tell you what did better.
I would say it was better online because you could coordinate with a team. Not much fun taking the 'bender through the fence on Junk against bots, or going through the defenders spawn on Fallen against bots.
2k4 AS failed because of race maps, crappy user created maps and people being to lazy to learn. Even though they gimped it down from 99 to 2k4, it was still to hard for people. The ones that wanted to learn, like JD and c5, had fun and enjoyed it
Hey JD <3
PS
99 AS is still going strong, 2k4 AS is dead and has been dead since mid 2005, it was kept on life support by Dry Lobster and Omni, but still dead. That should tell you what did better.
(1) it rewards veterans and punishes newbies, thereby making it next to impossible for new players to find their way in
If you don't know the map you'll fail. There's no way to survive or be a threat to an enemy regardless of your generic fps-skills, unless you know the map like the back of your hand. In any other gametype this isn't much of an issue.
(2) it rewards finding flaws and exploits in maps as less time spent travelling between objectives increases your chances of getting them done.
As maps will always have flaws (mostly due to lack of testing & quality-control) the one thing a gametype should not do is reward players for abusing the flaws present.
If assault was 'so great' then why couldn't the community build any decent maps to play ?
All those years playing should have resulted in a simple set of rules for a community to hire a bunch of coders & mappers to deliver the next-gen version.
Unless of course the community can't even agree on what is 'required' for Assault to be fun ...
In a way it is the racing/trick-maps that proved to be the only viable game-variant for Assault.
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1. So a game type that does not have fragging as the be all end all is some how bad? Other than the fact that you are wrong, I would think that is good. I have seen plenty of skilled DMers make a BIG impact on a AS match. Besides, shouldn't a vet have an upper hand? Find me one thing in the world where that is not true.
2. There are no flaws in AS, only tricks. Even Cliffy B said so.
3. 2k4 AS died with lack of maps because all the good mappers stayed with UT99, hence why they still get maps to this day.
4. Guide lines have ben established, the problen is that with 2k4, it is very difficult to do right, even Subrosa had to be edited, and Thrust was utter Crap. THe stock maps where fantastic and fun to this day. Props to EPic on making something so great.
I did not mean to say that fragging-skills should be the 'be all and end all' of a gametype.
I mean that being able to survive and be a threat to opponents should not depend on map-knowledge.
Key : "easy to learn / difficult to master" is what is needed.
Assault never was 'easy' to learn.
there's a difference between having 'the upper hand' and being unstoppable.
In a gametype that can be within a minute (easily true for Assault) it's next to impossible to learn anything.
tricks that are unknown to newbies create an impossibly steap learning-curve and result in a community that can't possibly grow.
if these are available then you wouldn't need Epic to re-create Assault for UT3, would you ?
Should be a piece of cake for a community as large and as dedicated to the game as the one for Assault ...
.
Assault-maps for UT'99 pretty much requires the exact physics, movement & weapon-balance as was present in that game.
UT2kx (and UT3) drastically changed those aspects and thus make it impossible to port existing maps.
This is a problem for every gametype, but given the importance of these aspects for these maps in the gametype it pretty much broke any maps that depended on these features as soon as they changed.
This suggests to me that the maps were already broken back in UT'99 but the community had accepted those design-flaws as features.
Relying on broken/undocumented features always results in problems as no one can guaruantee that those items will be available in a new version.
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Would you like a list of people that have participated in the Assault mixers with no map knowledge and done well? In UT99, yes it was very hard for new guys, but not at all in 2k4. It had about the same learning curve as 2k4 itself.
Name one game type where knowledge does can not make you unstoppable. I played against some of the best in every game type, and the ones that I was n00b to, owned me, that is the way it should be, just like in real life. I have been welding for 13 years, exactly 50% of my life, I am better than most at it.
Assault takes totally different skill set than other game types, but it is no different in how it is learned.
It is about as likely in a pub to win in less than a minute in 99, impossible in 2k4. Only in competitive situations are you likely to see map times that small in 99, and only when teams screw up, in 2k4 3:30 is about the fastest you can compete the quickest map, Fallen. I did not come to 2k4 AS with much knowledge, but it was not hard to learn. They have an announcer and a giant arrow telling you what to do. Many people also asked questions, and unlike TDM or CTF, the AS community was helpful, not insulting
Have you never seen a noob in a server that can't dodge? I have. I have seen guys that don't know some of the simplest things. It is called learning. I did not know about sliding on the ramps in Rankin, I watched and learned, i did not know about shield jumping (it is disabled in AS), so I had someone teach me.
Assault did grow, just had to find people that wanted to play something different.
the guide lines where for mapping.
I would not have wanted Epic to do it. They seem to screw things up the more they work with them. Most Assaulter's moved to newer games when UT3 came out, they gave up on Epic. I find it a good thing they didn't have it, I don't need to be addicted again. 99 and 2k4 where fantastic games that sucked up 3-4 years of my life, a piece.
yes
I would not call them broken, but whatever. I prefer challenges and new ways of thinking to get things done, if you like to be directed on a very linear path, then so be it.
Correct. Game designers always change things between games, even when they work.
PS
I do like your title, it is fitting for our discussion
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BTW
There were many trials servers back in the day for ut2k4, and I was wondering was it a big enough hit that Epic could have made Trials a gametype on its own for ut2k4. There were many maps for it and the really good trails had you think out side the box. Not only that, but some trials had unique designs and how to beat them.
I forgot the name of this trial but there were 4 rooms and at the end there was no obj. It when you finally get to the end at one of them the obj was actually outside the map. You see, what you really had to do was vote to another map to beat the map. Cool, no?
There were many trials servers back in the day for ut2k4, and I was wondering was it a big enough hit that Epic could have made Trials a gametype on its own for ut2k4. There were many maps for it and the really good trails had you think out side the box. Not only that, but some trials had unique designs and how to beat them.
I forgot the name of this trial but there were 4 rooms and at the end there was no obj. It when you finally get to the end at one of them the obj was actually outside the map. You see, what you really had to do was vote to another map to beat the map. Cool, no?
Indeed. Aside from As-dismaloubliette. No matter what they tried, it just wouldn't work.