Anyone else pissed at Steam?

[Chocobo]

I've never had problems with Steam except someone stealing my Blue Shift cd-key and the friends network not working most of the time. As for HL2, I preloaded it as time went on so I only had to validate the steam files then that was it. I don't care if they put their games on Mantas and make me run after it as long as they keep giving me good games.

 

[NeoNite]

What the hell has beyondunreal OT come to?!?!?! The words "log" and "steam" together in the same post and no one makes a hot carl joke?

 

[JaFO]

...
Steam is not spyware - fact.
....

And prey how do you know it isn't ?
It's not exactly 'open source', so the chances of you or anyone else except Valve/Steam knowing exactly what it does or does not 'know' is unknown.

Perhaps you just like to trust Valve and assume they're not doing anything 'bad' with the data they most definitely will collect ?

/me I don't trust a company that treats me like a criminal from the moment I buy their software.

Steam achieved one thing ... and that's to prove that 'trusted computing' or 'palladium' or whatever name they're going to give will succeed as the majority of the users have already acknowledged that they don't care about who controls what as long as they get their bread & circuses.

In Germany they came first for the Communists and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Communist.
Then they came for the Jews and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Jew.
Then they came for the trade unionists and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a trade unionist.
Then they came for the Catholics and I didn't speak up because I was a Protestant.
Then they came for me--and by that time no one was left to speak up. *

Martin Niemöller 1892-1984.

I'd wish my paranoiia about Steam and its consequences was just that ...
but I fear it will be even worse than I can imagine.

 

[dub]

valve wants your MP3 list!

And prey how do you know it isn't ?
It's not exactly 'open source', so the chances of you or anyone else except Valve/Steam knowing exactly what it does or does not 'know' is unknown.

Perhaps you just like to trust Valve and assume they're not doing anything 'bad' with the data they most definitely will collect ?

This is how I know.
Also, considering that valve has an up-comming court battle where the inner workings of Steam will be investigated, I doubt they would want the extra hassle of beeing sued; ontop of things; for breaking their contract with me(users).
Also, what possible use could valve possibly gain from knowing what is on your drive - besides demographic information which would be helpfull for further games creation?

/me I don't trust a company that treats me like a criminal from the moment I buy their software.

Thats funny... you feel like a criminal... how so?
I can't say I share the same notion simply by installing software.
I can't say I feel like a criminal when I have to input a CD key... so I did'nt feel like a criminal installing steam.
Alone that steam; in my experience; just helps me get up-dates... I had to input my voucher key once (like a normal CD key) and that was all that I had to do security related... so I can't see how that differes from let's say UT's CD-Key. (in respect to "feeling like a criminal" - which I anyway don't understand)

btw. Sele. - the search feature is back up in the Steampowered forums... not that it's astoundingly helpfull, as there is a lot of spam to wade through.

 

[JaFO]

How ?
Let's see ... I've got to ask Valve if I pretty please may use their software even after I've completed my contract with the salesperson in the shop ( ... ).
So they assume I am guilty by default unless I prove I am innocent by providing whatever details they claim to need as if me paying money and them receiving their money (from the shop I where bought their product) isn't good enough.

And while you're pointing at their 'declaration of privacy' you obviously ignore :

Personally identifiable information will be processed and stored by Valve in databases

Why do they need to do that?
Unless they plan to use it for marketing and other purposes which have no relevance to my use of their software (hence their need for 'opt out' instead of the more reasonable/less spammy 'opt in' for giving them access to such info).

I've got to trust Valve not to invalidate my access, because there's no reasonable way of protesting their actions.

They (at least try to) give themselves the right not to return any money you've paid ("YOUR SUBSCRIPTION FEES ARE PAYABLE IN ADVANCE AND ARE NOT REFUNDABLE IN WHOLE OR IN PART. ... ").

And let's not forget the most idiotic part of any contract ever written :

THE ENTIRE RISK ARISING OUT OF USE OR PERFORMANCE OF STEAM, THE STEAM SOFTWARE, AND MERCHANDISE REMAINS WITH YOU, THE USER.
...
YOU ASSUME THE ENTIRE RISK WITH RESPECT TO THE PERFORMANCE AND RESULTS OF THE STEAM SOFTWARE IN CONNECTION WITH YOUR HARDWARE.

ie : if Steam is crippled then it's 'my' fault. I can't blaim Valve ever even though it might be their incompetence that lead to the problem.
Those statements by themself mark Steam-contracts as illegal by default, because even the most basic contract can not ignore my legal right that items must be 'fit for purpose and function without any problems for a reasonable amount of time'.
Imagine someone selling you a crippled car as a new one and then blaming you for any repairs that need to be done ...
How many seconds would such a sale last once the customer realised he'd been sold a lemon ?
Perhaps such sales are legal in the USA, but in any decent country there are laws which protect consumers from such attempts.
Yet Vavle clearly is attempting to make sure it can't be blamed for any such issues.

They do not even attempt to warn people that on-line registration is required for the game.

Just by reading the Steam-EULA/Contract it is obvious it was designed to give Valve total and complete control over its software even after it is installed.

I consider such a contract to be illegal by default. Hence why I refuse to use Steam-based software.

There's far too many problems that end with the innocent consumer being left with nothing except a useless crippled product while Valve can't even be blamed if they are obviously incompetent & corrupt.

 

[dub]

How ?
Let's see ... I've got to ask Valve if I pretty please may use their software even after I've completed my contract with the salesperson in the shop ( ... ).
So they assume I am guilty by default unless I prove I am innocent by providing whatever details they claim to need as if me paying money and them receiving their money (from the shop I where bought their product) isn't good enough.

And this differs how exactly from a bog standard CD key!?
s'like saying about epic; it's not good enough that I have a contract with the sales person they still want me to input my CD key.. ???

CD-Key: Go to shop > by game > input CD Key
Steam: Get online > download > input Key

And while you're pointing at their 'declaration of privacy' you obviously ignore :

Why do they need to do that?
Unless they plan to use it for marketing and other purposes which have no relevance to my use of their software (hence their need for 'opt out' instead of the more reasonable/less spammy 'opt in' for giving them access to such info).

Well, as I said, for demographics (are lots of young people playing the game etc...) Theres many instances where it can be usefull for game developers to have stats (anonymous) - as they dont related to you in specific - that's what the 'Aggregate information' buiness is about.

Also, your straying off the original point, which was that it was spyware.
It's not spyware, as I know all the information that is beeing passed on via steam and can opt. out of this, if I so desire.
How can it be spyware if I know that they are gathering this information and are not; dunno... checking for other installed progs.
Further more, I didn't ignore anything... as I read the privacy licence quite carefully, even before I signed up to steam.

They (at least try to) give themselves the right not to return any money you've paid ("YOUR SUBSCRIPTION FEES ARE PAYABLE IN ADVANCE AND ARE NOT REFUNDABLE IN WHOLE OR IN PART. ... ").
And let's not forget the most idiotic part of any contract ever written :
ie : if Steam is crippled then it's 'my' fault. I can't blaim Valve ever even though it might be their incompetence that lead to the problem.
Those statements by themself mark Steam-contracts as illegal by default, because even the most basic contract can not ignore my legal right that items must be 'fit for purpose and function without any problems for a reasonable amount of time'.
Imagine someone selling you a crippled car as a new one and then blaming you for any repairs that need to be done ...
How many seconds would such a sale last once the customer realised he'd been sold a lemon ?
Perhaps such sales are legal in the USA, but in any decent country there are laws which protect consumers from such attempts.
Yet Vavle clearly is attempting to make sure it can't be blamed for any such issues.

I think you'll find that most companies adopt a similar policy. It's not like I will get refunded for anydays my X-box live sets out either.
Simmilar to most software you buy. You will never get refunded by the software developer, rather, by the distributor.
Many games have a very similar contract, so you can't sue them for having a bug in-game.

There's far too many problems that end with the innocent consumer being left with nothing except a useless crippled product while Valve can't even be blamed if they are obviously incompetent & corrupt.

Well - whats with me then?
The only problem I've had is that I play far too much HalfLife. Non of my products are useless or crippled. And I enjoy the fact that all my steam based games are getting up-dated without me having to even look at a single website.
Corrupt...

 

[JaFO]

And this differs how exactly from a bog standard CD key!?
s'like saying about epic; it's not good enough that I have a contract with the sales person they still want me to input my CD key.. ???

CD-Key: Go to shop > by game > input CD Key
Steam: Get online > download > input Key

IMHO the CD-key as used by Epic is already overkill, but at least that's for a game that is supposed to be played on-line. I can understand that they need something to id a player so a server-operator can kick you from servers *if* and only *if* you misbehave on their server.
Even if Epic ever decides to ban my cd-key (either by accident or otherwise) then it still does not automagically invalidate my copy of the game or any other game using the same system on my pc.

HL2 otoh is marketed as a pure off-line singleplayergame.
Why would I need to tell the company I've got the game ?
Bloodlines apparently doesn't need on-line activation ...
In fact I think someone said it didn't even have cd-based copy-'protection'.
Why does Valve think it can't trust its customers ?
Both Halo 2 & San Andreas sold a lot of copies ... despite the fact that they're "available" through illegal means.
The music-industry still manages to make a profit and have increased sales (5-10% by last count) despite the low economy and the popularity of p2p-sharing et al.
Valve itself managed to do quite well despite the fact that HL1 must be the most pirated game on the planet by now.

Well, as I said, for demographics (are lots of young people playing the game etc...) Theres many instances where it can be usefull for game developers to have stats (anonymous) - as they dont related to you in specific - that's what the 'Aggregate information' buiness is about.

So they can create more mass-market bland pieces of crap ?
I don't want to play a soulless game that's targeted at a certain demographic like EA does.
I want to play games & support those developers that honestly considered their products to be fun to play themselves.

Also, your straying off the original point, which was that it was spyware.
It's not spyware, as I know all the information that is beeing passed on via steam and can opt. out of this, if I so desire.

Why should I opt out ?
Why can't it be 'opt in' ?
If they've got nothing to hide they can surely offer such a feature without causing any problems.
If otoh they want to profit from the data I generate without giving anything in return then 'opt out' is the system to choose as that way allows you to catch the lazy consumers.

How can it be spyware if I know that they are gathering this information and are not; dunno... checking for other installed progs.

So you don't mind being watched as if you're a criminal just because they told you they'd be watching you and weren't going to use that info for 'bad' things ?
/me I'd wish they'd waste their money on something more useful like fixing the game and not inventing 'solutions' for problems that don't even exist.

Further more, I didn't ignore anything... as I read the privacy licence quite carefully, even before I signed up to steam.

I'm sure you're one of the few that actually read the license.
Given that the license is only available in English (which in itself is reason enough for it to be invalid) and most people ignore EULA's filled with lawyer-speak (since they're illegal anyway) I doubt that the average HL2-fan/steam-user is aware of what they signed up for.
Perhaps it serves them right ... but I'd rather wished they'd considered what they were getting themselves into and the kind of problems this will create in the future.

I think you'll find that most companies adopt a similar policy. It's not like I will get refunded for anydays my X-box live sets out either.
Simmilar to most software you buy. You will never get refunded by the software developer, rather, by the distributor.

So what ?
I don't care who returns my money for a product that's not up to spec.
I'd rather let the shops worry about that bit, while I stick to shops that do offer reasonable policies in this matter.

...
Many games have a very similar contract, so you can't sue them for having a bug in-game.

Which sucks as I am sure I could sue General Motors if they'd produced cars whose engines exploded due to design-bugs.
It is stupid that software companies in general get away with bugs/defects that would have ended any regular company.
I think the only reason it is (still) in their contract is because no one wealthy enough has attempted to sue them.

Well - whats with me then?
The only problem I've had is that I play far too much HalfLife. Non of my products are useless or crippled. And I enjoy the fact that all my steam based games are getting up-dated without me having to even look at a single website.
Corrupt...

perhaps you do.
Me I'd rather be in control of anything as much as possible.
That includes whether I do or do not update my game.

 

[Freon]

/me points at |dub|

Oh nooooeeeesss the mindless zombies from the land of valve have come for our souls!!!


I remember the good old days of HL1. Installing and playing mods was so easy. As was the SDK. And Steam was not even a dream. Now I have to be logged on the internet to use the editor. Don't you think that's ****ed up? Steam gather information on your computer, only specs for now. But now that it's installed on millions of computers, Valve will be able to use it for more.

Anyway, Steam has nothing to do with fighting against piracy. It's pretty easy to use a warezed version.

I can't wait for Valve to dress its employees as combine soldiers

 

[dub]

I can't say that I would want more game developers to follow suit

I'm not saying I love steam... but I've had no problems using it and I do see it's few up-sides.

Now I have to be logged on the internet to use the editor. Don't you think that's ****ed up?

Would be - if it where accurate.

Just make a shortcut to the SDK - then you can also use it offline.

 

[dub]

ooops, missed your post first time round.

So they can create more mass-market bland pieces of crap ?
I don't want to play a soulless game that's targeted at a certain demographic like EA does.
I want to play games & support those developers that honestly considered their products to be fun to play themselves.

Demographics are quite handy actually.
For instace valve could find out, that most players that play HL2 - are between 20 and 40 years of age, they could then concentrate on adding stuff with more adult content which they would have otherwise omited, as they though that younger players would buy the game. (example) If you ask any one, in vurtually any buisness, knowing a bit about your clients is priceless info. Even if it's only their average age. Demographics can only help in a products creation.
As for the fun part, Newell would have never realsed HL2 until he thought it was fun. (long read)

So you don't mind being watched as if you're a criminal just because they told you they'd be watching you and weren't going to use that info for 'bad' things ?

Nope. + I don't feel like they are looking at me like a criminal... which they are not anyways.

Given that the license is only available in English (which in itself is reason enough for it to be invalid)

Good point. I'm not sure that there is'nt a multilingual version somewhere, but I don't think there is.

Which sucks as I am sure I could sue General Motors if they'd produced cars whose engines exploded due to design-bugs.

Totally OT - but do you remember when GM released a version of a car, that if it had a crash, the fuel tank was prone to blowing up.
But when they actually came to calculating costs, it was cheaper to pay off the victims families, than to actually re-call all the vehicles and fix them...

 

[JaFO]

Demographics are quite handy actually.
For instace valve could find out, that most players that play HL2 - are between 20 and 40 years of age, they could then concentrate on adding stuff with more adult content which they would have otherwise omited, as they though that younger players would buy the game. (example) If you ask any one, in vurtually any buisness, knowing a bit about your clients is priceless info. Even if it's only their average age. Demographics can only help in a products creation.

sure ... and look at any Top 40 list or the average tv-channel for the results.
It's filled with manufactured bands that 'everyone' is supposed to like.

Or what if you are 'outside' those ranges.
If companies continue to work this way then there won't be any games for these 'unprofitable' markets as they're unlikely to risc anything for such a small share of the market. Sucks to be 40+ in a few years I guess.

Never mind Bill Gates most famous quote : "640k is enough for everyone" ...
Demographics can't always predict everything.
However as more data is collected companies will be increasingly more tempted to rely on them just to 'play it safe'.

...
As for the fun part, Newell would have never realsed HL2 until he thought it was fun. (long read)

sure ... but what about HL3 and HL4, etc. Will he still think that ?
Or will he be tempted by the ease with which he can force people to buy the new game ?
He can simply let Steam invalidate any HL2 license and 'force' people to upgrade to the next version ... The Steam-license you've "signed" gives them that right!

That kind of power should never be in the hands of a corporation or anyone else for that matter.
In fact I'm sure Bill Gates/Microsoft would kill anyone (or just buy) Valve/Vivendi just to get similar means in their hands. (it wouldn't be the first time they did this ... )

...
Totally OT - but do you remember when GM released a version of a car, that if it had a crash, the fuel tank was prone to blowing up.
But when they actually came to calculating costs, it was cheaper to pay off the victims families, than to actually re-call all the vehicles and fix them...

bottom line > morals or justice for any company
That's why IMNSHO Steam is the worst thing to happen to gamers.
Sure ... it may appear friendly.
It probably works without any serious problems this year, but the potential for abuse is so great that any advantages it might have are 0.

 

[.altan]

Posting to say that JaFo's website wants to set cookies. Not just one, but TWO! FROM DIFFERENT SOURCES!

This blatant violation of privacy is obviously illegal

JaFo stop tracking the internet

edit: this is clearly the death of websites

 

[Lizard Of Oz]

I perfectly happy with Steam now that I’ve beaten HL² and have un-installed it and Steam.

 

[jjcpimp]

haha u all make me laugh

the things you ****ing nerds talk about make me piss myself. you all sit around talking **** thinkin your intelegent when really your a bunch of virgin faggots who sit in their moms basement all the ****ing time. so in actual fact really ur a bunch of dumb queers so eat **** dickheads. and get out more the sun will do ur pale ass ****ing skin some good mother ****ers.

 

[B]

You know it all comes down to two groups:

1. The peope that accept Steam, because they use their brains, and agree Valve is allowed to protect their software by whichever means they think is needed.
2. The people that will hate Steam no matter what. They'll dig up total unrelated items to justify their unfounded hate against Steam. You knew on forehand the game was going to need Internet. You knew on forehand it uses Steam. You knew it was a game requiring more than your ****ty 1,2Ghz with a MX440. You knew all this and still you bitch about it. What are you?Retards? (no offence Ren) Use your friggin brains, idiots!

note: Not aimed at anyone in particulair. Just kinda tired to hear this discussion on every forum I visit.

 

[Lizard Of Oz]

What I don't like about Steam is precedent it sets.

If I buy a piece of software, I expect to use it anytime I like, I don’t expect to be required to get permission from the developers every time I fire it up. It would be like “owning” a car except that every time you wanted to go some where, you’d have to call up Ford, Volvo, BMW, etc… to get permission to drive a car you theoretically own.

 

[Sir_Brizz]

Demographics are quite handy actually.
For instace valve could find out, that most players that play HL2 - are between 20 and 40 years of age, they could then concentrate on adding stuff with more adult content which they would have otherwise omited, as they though that younger players would buy the game. (example) If you ask any one, in vurtually any buisness, knowing a bit about your clients is priceless info. Even if it's only their average age. Demographics can only help in a products creation.

This paragraph=dumb.

Age ratings and demographic information ESPECIALLY BASED ON AGE is improper information. There is no guarantee that those ages are even close to correct. You could have a 9 year old playing the game, but because he entered his birthday so that the game thought he was 35, he gets to see all the additional "adult-content". This is something that has never been accurate, and until there is biometric scans and social security checks in games for age information (which will hopefully be NEVER) it won't ever be accurate. Additionally, they would have to have biometric scans for ruinning the game, because otherwise little Johnny could get his big brother or mommy to do get the game for him, and for that matter could even get them to run it for them. I'm sure it's not impossible for you to see the incredible abusability of such an option. Demographic information is rarely useful for anything, especially for "targetted advertising".

1. The peope that accept Steam, because they use their brains, and agree Valve is allowed to protect their software by whichever means they think is needed.

So in other words, you have to have a brain to realize that a program you purchase from the store you should NOT be able to install and run WITHOUT an Internet Connection? I guess I don't want a brain

2. The people that will hate Steam no matter what. They'll dig up total unrelated items to justify their unfounded hate against Steam. You knew on forehand the game was going to need Internet. You knew on forehand it uses Steam. You knew it was a game requiring more than your ****ty 1,2Ghz with a MX440. You knew all this and still you bitch about it. What are you?Retards? (no offence Ren) Use your friggin brains, idiots!

I don't hate Steam no matter what. I hate it because it's a STEAMing pile of ****. I kept Steam long enough to beat HL2 then got rid of it. What makes it worth keeping? Valve IS treating you like a criminal, even when you prove that you are not one (by purchasing the game). If they WEREN'T, then online activation WOULD NOT BE REQUIRED. Can you name 2 other games that have an activation scheme like this? I'm talking about GAMES not PROGRAMS. I don't know if I can name even one! Do you realize how ridiculous it would be if this became status quo for game developers? We have already witnessed the problems with the activation servers this time around (even you who didn't have problems know that there WERE problems). Do you think it won't happen next time? Sorry, it will always happen until the Internet runs in real-time.

 

[dub]

I was'nt going to bother posting on, I even did'nt post a whole post I wrote out...

What I don't like about Steam is precedent it sets.

If I buy a piece of software, I expect to use it anytime I like, I don’t expect to be required to get permission from the developers every time I fire it up. It would be like “owning” a car except that every time you wanted to go some where, you’d have to call up Ford, Volvo, BMW, etc… to get permission to drive a car you theoretically own.

But I guess I'm not twigging onto this perticular aspect.

When - besides when you first enter your CD-key or coupon code or whatever - do you need permission to run anything over steam?
Personally, I authed. my version once and that was it.
Since then I run HL or any of it's components when ever I please on or off-line... no permissions needed.
What am I missing?

 

[Hadmar]

You know it all comes down to two groups:

1. The peope that accept Steam, because they use their brains, and agree Valve is allowed to protect their software by whichever means they think is needed.
2. The people that will hate Steam no matter what. They'll dig up total unrelated items to justify their unfounded hate against Steam. You knew on forehand the game was going to need Internet. You knew on forehand it uses Steam. You knew it was a game requiring more than your ****ty 1,2Ghz with a MX440. You knew all this and still you bitch about it. What are you?Retards? (no offence Ren) Use your friggin brains, idiots!

note: Not aimed at anyone in particulair. Just kinda tired to hear this discussion on every forum I visit.

You know it all comes down to two groups:

1. The people who accept Steam because they can't even grasp what they are doing.
2. The people who will not accept Steam for absolutely perfect and irrefutable reasons; people who know WTF it realy means and what it implies for the future.

Note: Not aimed at anyone in particular. Just kinda tired to hear this discussion on every forum I visit.






That's fun! I realy should post crap like that more often!

 

[.altan]

You knew it was a game requiring more than your ****ty 1,2Ghz with a MX440.

The most popular graphics card for HL2 according to Steam is the MX440.

There are probably a lot of people running that card with a processor slower than 1.5GHz too. It can't be running so badly.