Anti-Establishmentarianism discussion
- Thread starter Cactus
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Look, obviously when i posted lastnight, there was a lot of background stories that i didn't include, so the whole rant seemed unfocused at many points. i've had a chance to think and to refine.
first a few responses: JT: I agree with what you say, but even in eastern philosophies, there are still people, demogagues, (not in china cuz you can't really do that and not get shot, but many in taiwan) who basically make it their existence to bring down the establishment, while not understanding at the slightest, the political balance that needs to be struck.
example, the Taiwanese president, who is extremely unpopular in taiwan, who ran on the premise of independence, as soon as he took office, took a soft stance on teh whole issue and announced that he would not seek independence. these people, either don't know, or knowing continue to ignore the complexities of a multi-ethnic, multi-cultural, multi-dimensional collective known as a "nation" and the strain it is under every single day, to remain a cohesive nation.
Frost: Giuliani wasn't digging people out but he was in the downtown area before the buildings even collapsed (that's where city hall is as well) he refused to leave when the police commissioner asked him to, and was directing relief efforts until he became trapped in 1 liberty by the dust and debris for a while when tower 1 came down. that's Churchill caliber, FDR caliber, that's not something you'd ever see hillary clinton doing in a million years.
but we digress. the extreme liberals who preach tolerance are no better than the extreme conservatives, these people call themselves democratic socialists, anarchists, etc. but they have no wish at all to represent any views except tehir own. socialism requires a representation and tolerance of all ideas, hwoever these people only wish to tolerate the ones that coincide with their own doctrines. we should hear the ideas that everyone has, except the ones we feel are absurd.
they are neither tolerant nor pragmatic, they want generalized social welfare, while not suggesting any way to raise funds or compensate labor for those services. tehy want everything to be done their way, and whine and bitch about it when they aren't. they want everyone to be pleased, but they want themselves to be pleased above all else. it's selfish and arrogant.
first a few responses: JT: I agree with what you say, but even in eastern philosophies, there are still people, demogagues, (not in china cuz you can't really do that and not get shot, but many in taiwan) who basically make it their existence to bring down the establishment, while not understanding at the slightest, the political balance that needs to be struck.
example, the Taiwanese president, who is extremely unpopular in taiwan, who ran on the premise of independence, as soon as he took office, took a soft stance on teh whole issue and announced that he would not seek independence. these people, either don't know, or knowing continue to ignore the complexities of a multi-ethnic, multi-cultural, multi-dimensional collective known as a "nation" and the strain it is under every single day, to remain a cohesive nation.
Frost: Giuliani wasn't digging people out but he was in the downtown area before the buildings even collapsed (that's where city hall is as well) he refused to leave when the police commissioner asked him to, and was directing relief efforts until he became trapped in 1 liberty by the dust and debris for a while when tower 1 came down. that's Churchill caliber, FDR caliber, that's not something you'd ever see hillary clinton doing in a million years.
but we digress. the extreme liberals who preach tolerance are no better than the extreme conservatives, these people call themselves democratic socialists, anarchists, etc. but they have no wish at all to represent any views except tehir own. socialism requires a representation and tolerance of all ideas, hwoever these people only wish to tolerate the ones that coincide with their own doctrines. we should hear the ideas that everyone has, except the ones we feel are absurd.
they are neither tolerant nor pragmatic, they want generalized social welfare, while not suggesting any way to raise funds or compensate labor for those services. tehy want everything to be done their way, and whine and bitch about it when they aren't. they want everyone to be pleased, but they want themselves to be pleased above all else. it's selfish and arrogant.
You have to allow everyones views to be heard, no matter how crazy they may seem at first, because the melting pot of ideas will produce better molten mix ( erm 
) the more people contribute. The right to complete freedom of speech ( which includes the right not to be heard, privacy is as important as publicity ) is of paramount importance to civilisation.
The people you describe would probably argue that they want that as much as anyone. But in reality they are as closed minded as anyone, if not more so because they really believe that they are in the right and that they're campaigning for a better society, when in fact, if they had their way, the world would be an even worse place than they envision it to be...
) the more people contribute. The right to complete freedom of speech ( which includes the right not to be heard, privacy is as important as publicity ) is of paramount importance to civilisation.The people you describe would probably argue that they want that as much as anyone. But in reality they are as closed minded as anyone, if not more so because they really believe that they are in the right and that they're campaigning for a better society, when in fact, if they had their way, the world would be an even worse place than they envision it to be...
S
SpiritWalker
Guest
I do agree with you Cactus.. except..
graffiti off the streets of Harlem, and raw sewage off the Grand Canyon floor and things of that nature is pollution, and illegal where as the porn shops (as distasteful as they are to some) are legal places of bussines, and until the laws are changed by popular vote then they should be where ever the zoning laws allow...
most "kids" will always complain about stuff that they don't like, and bitchandwhine, but won't do anything to change the issues at hand.. then we learn.. and grow..
and laugh at the stupid things that we do..
Then I'd say that it's correct that some people just don't reach the phase of development that lets them see more than their own view in any empathic way. It's not my own idea; I'm digging up concepts from my psych days again. Of interest to you might be a French psychiatrist or psychologist whose name I can't dredge up at the moment (Jean something, I think) who outlined stages of mental and social development. If you haven't taken psych, any PS101 pal of yours could probably supply the name. At any rate, the final stage he described was one that allows this adoption of differing perspectives, and he submitted that some people just don't get that far. I've never drawn a solid conclusion as to whether some people aren't capable of it, don't find an environment that allows it, or just don't make the effort to realize it; I do agree with him though that this stage exists as he described it.
I only have a problem with that if they never weighed their views against opposing views. I only represent my own views; I'm willing to listen to reasoned, opposing arguments though. Then they might be rejected or adopted. If they've done that I may still think they're idiots, but at least I can respect their views.
Hammer meets nail.
If you'd like a thought-provoking examination of this (and a lot more), put Ayne Rand's "Atlas Shrugged" on your reading list. I think she got a few things wrong, oversimplified a couple ideas, and a lot of people will tell you to pick up "The Fountainhead" first, but her ideas are starkly clear and practically force you to examine them. It's sort of... opposing philosophies at work, set in fiction. Your above paragraph describes one of these philosophies at work rather well.
Spirit: i agree that porn shops are legal enterprises. however, a district of porn shops often attracts shady and unsavory enterprises such as brothels and rampant prostitution, which is illegal, and bad for business in general. however this in of itself is not a justification for eliminating the porn businesses. the real reason i believe that justifies the removal of sex shops from the area is the fact that 42'nd street, Time Square is a landmark, 7 street blocks in either direction, you have one the north side, St. Patrick's cathedral and Rockafeller center, 7 blocks south you have Penn Station, Madison Square Garden, Macy's department store, and all around the area is full of legitimate banking, fashion businesses. in such an environment, it would be uncharacteristic to have a section as a red light district.
i think there are always red light districts in every city in the world, there's no "zoning" for it, prostitution just happens. however, i do believe in there being a time and place for everything and the location of a red light district in time square is grossly inappropriate. imagine another landmark, say the national mall, the lincoln memorial, and then imagine a row of 25cent peep show stores along the way. it seems absurd and almost outrageous, because we want a landmark to be the defining symbol of the character and principles of a country, things we are proud of, and we are certainly not going to show sex shops as our best face forward.
the removal of the red light district was in of itself not only an improvement on the image of new york, but was essential to the new york rennaisance. we could not have climbed out of the deep dark hole david dinkins had left for us, if we didn't make at least manhattan uniform in its value, in its culture, and in its class.
plenty of sex shops still exist, but just not in that area, and i think that new york is quote the better for it.
i think there are always red light districts in every city in the world, there's no "zoning" for it, prostitution just happens. however, i do believe in there being a time and place for everything and the location of a red light district in time square is grossly inappropriate. imagine another landmark, say the national mall, the lincoln memorial, and then imagine a row of 25cent peep show stores along the way. it seems absurd and almost outrageous, because we want a landmark to be the defining symbol of the character and principles of a country, things we are proud of, and we are certainly not going to show sex shops as our best face forward.
the removal of the red light district was in of itself not only an improvement on the image of new york, but was essential to the new york rennaisance. we could not have climbed out of the deep dark hole david dinkins had left for us, if we didn't make at least manhattan uniform in its value, in its culture, and in its class.
plenty of sex shops still exist, but just not in that area, and i think that new york is quote the better for it.
lucifix
I did something m0tarded and now I have read only access! :(
insted of bitching about porn shops maybe we should bitch about getting guns out of the hands of children. I honestly cant remember the last death/murder/suicide caused by porn
lucifix
I did something m0tarded and now I have read only access! :(
lucifix
I did something m0tarded and now I have read only access! :(
posted by cactus:"i agree that porn shops are legal enterprises. however, a district of porn shops often attracts shady and unsavory enterprises such as brothels and rampant prostitution"
ok.......dude you need to chill. and look at the real enemy......gun shops/liquor stores/churches are more shady and unsavory.....imo
ok.......dude you need to chill. and look at the real enemy......gun shops/liquor stores/churches are more shady and unsavory.....imo
lucifix
I did something m0tarded and now I have read only access! :(
and i honestly see nothing wrong with prostitution. if it were made legal every goddamn man in the world would be getting laid every sec of the day, including you cactus. the only thing wrong with it is the disease part and if it were legal and the "ladies" were made to have frequent checkups there would be no problem. and drugs would also be a lot better if they were legalized but thats another topic.............
you missed my point entirely, i was merely making a counter-point to a commentary about the time square initiative, which i wholeheartedly support. i was saying that people rag on it, call it stupid, have really no reason to because it was indeed good for the city. i'm not saying that there isn't bigger problems out there. just because we have seen worse doesn't mean we can't address smaller problems. by your logic, we see children with their hands and feet cut off in Uganda, which if compared to say, heroin use in inner cities, is far more violent and far more atrocious, but such a comparison is merely an observation, it does not necessitate the emphasis of one problem over another. i'm in no way denying that there are more fuked up **** in the world, but why are you saying we can't address this problem? are you saying that because there is worse, we should ignore this problem? i'm just talkign about the merits of this particular policy, i'm not talking about guns, gang violence, drug use and the degradation of family values, which granted are all problems, have no bearing on teh question at hand.
lucifix
I did something m0tarded and now I have read only access! :(
uh, which "problem" are you refering to? if its porn, thats because porn shops ARENT a problem. and as far as the little kids getting theire hands chopped off in another country, well thats another country............
uh, which "problem" are you refering to? if its porn, thats because porn shops ARENT a problem. and as far as the little kids getting theire hands chopped off in another country, well thats another country............
But still the same world. And that isnt even the worst of it. It is a problem and people should care, no matter where they live.
I agree about porn shops, they are no problem and I dont think they do attract other "buisnesses" of their kind, rather they are attracted to areas which are that way inclined anyway. But if they were propaly controlled pornography and prostitution wouldnt be a "problem" at all.
But still the same world. And that isnt even the worst of it. It is a problem and people should care, no matter where they live.
I agree about porn shops, they are no problem and I dont think they do attract other "buisnesses" of their kind, rather they are attracted to areas which are that way inclined anyway. But if they were propaly controlled pornography and prostitution wouldnt be a "problem" at all.
lucifix
I did something m0tarded and now I have read only access! :(
i didnt say i didnt care...it really shouldnt happen. what i meant was the whole world will never be on the same page so as long as it doesnt directly affect me i can deal with it. personally i think america is going to become just as bad if not worse than 3rd world countries....imo.......
"i didnt say i didnt care...it really shouldnt happen. what i meant was the whole world will never be on the same page so as long as it doesnt directly affect me i can deal with it. personally i think america is going to become just as bad if not worse than 3rd world countries....imo......"
perhaps, but in a different way.
perhaps, but in a different way.
it is legal in most countries - the US with it's confused institutionalized morality is one of the few places where a woman can **** 100 guys in a day for free, but get a criminal record for doing one guy for $$$.
It's to do with the christian theory of poon, you know the one where the guy doesnt get any until he's committed himself to a lifetime of looking after the woman - which is in many ways the ultimate form of prositution.
Interesting topic.. I had some ramblings with a friend about this sort of ignorant backlash last night... I'll use an aquaintence as an example.
Ok... so this person hates McDonalds, and I'm not talking the general dislike of the crappy ads, colour scheme, food that's prevelant through much of society... just an unbridled hate of eveything it is and stands for.... including its employe's. So here he is at a 21st...badgering a couple who happened to meet each other while working for McDs, calling them "drones" and whining about them feeding "the machine" ( completely oblivious to the alchohol he just purchased, the clothes on his back... etc )
I guess the crux of the matter was that he couldn't seperate morality from necessity. The couple didnt really like McDs or its 'cause' ....Infact one of them hates it, but fast food joints are going to exist no matter who's in charge, and making money its just a way of surviving in a capitalist society.... that's the only justification they needed.... but he insisted on fighting his little moral battle against McDs... for the 'good' of the rest of us I assume.... oblivious to how much of an ass he was making of himself.
In saying this I should also note that I really can't relate to how much cynicism there apparently is in the US ?
Angst ridden teens are popular on new zealand tv (read american tv interspersed with local shows) but I believe that's a poor indication of what to expect from a national psyche half way around the world.
Cactus if you could provide some more examples of the problem you're talikng about then maybe I can contribute something slightly more interesting to this discussion :>
Ok... so this person hates McDonalds, and I'm not talking the general dislike of the crappy ads, colour scheme, food
that's prevelant through much of society... just an unbridled hate of eveything it is and stands for.... including its employe's. So here he is at a 21st...badgering a couple who happened to meet each other while working for McDs, calling them "drones" and whining about them feeding "the machine" ( completely oblivious to the alchohol he just purchased, the clothes on his back... etc )I guess the crux of the matter was that he couldn't seperate morality from necessity. The couple didnt really like McDs or its 'cause' ....Infact one of them hates it, but fast food joints are going to exist no matter who's in charge, and making money its just a way of surviving in a capitalist society.... that's the only justification they needed.... but he insisted on fighting his little moral battle against McDs... for the 'good' of the rest of us I assume.... oblivious to how much of an ass he was making of himself.
In saying this I should also note that I really can't relate to how much cynicism there apparently is in the US ?
Angst ridden teens are popular on new zealand tv (read american tv interspersed with local shows) but I believe that's a poor indication of what to expect from a national psyche half way around the world.
Cactus if you could provide some more examples of the problem you're talikng about then maybe I can contribute something slightly more interesting to this discussion :>
lucifix
I did something m0tarded and now I have read only access! :(
whats the difference in taking a woman out,showing her a good time,buyin her expensive gifts and offering her $$$ for her company? i dont see one bit of fucking difference.......