a few more ideas thrown in for good measure..

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Omega

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Dec 19, 1999
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1) the ability to abseil - this would really be remarkable if it can be done. Imagine abseiling down from the top of a skyscraper, then breaking through a glass window etc. One button for attach/release, another for letting yourself down.
Special forces do this all the time right?

2) Parachuting - imagine parachuting down, and the searchlights are on, trying to spot you - if they do, the automatic guns go off, or guards shoot at you

3) Having a helicopter like Opposing Force that you can come down from a rope

4) Being able to hold onto a ledge eg. jump and grab onto a ledge

5) Being able to roll and crouch

6) Being able to jump on someone from above (cool right?)

7) A greater freedom to climb walls - rock climbing.

8) Have barbed wire fences and gates, with the ability to cut the wires at the gates. Or require you to blow up an electronic door with C4 in order to get through.

9) have doors you can blow open or knock down, with a shotgun.

10) have tear-gas!

interested????

cheers,
AJ

Don't frag me, love me.
 

Galaddin

Forum Drifter
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yes and don't forget, we all want infiltration out in the conceivable future /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

It is impossible for the glass to be half full or half empty for you see: there is no glass
 

ShakKen

Specops Spook
Jan 11, 2000
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pronounced 'ab-sail'

Ajy: The correct term is rappel. Also, not to arbitrarily shoot you down, the INF team has spent ALLOT of time gauging all these aspects for their feasability. Believe it or not, you haven't mentioned anything we haven't thought of/planned into/or rejected from our design concepts.

This is why we would rather people come up with some more unusual(and feasable) concepts or even suggestions to help us fix what is already wrong with Infiltration.

This is what our forum is here for.

We're not doing this mod as a profession, henceforth, we are extremely limited in the time we can spend working on it. We wan't to give our players a broad scope of abilities in Infiltration, but not so complex that it impedes on the enjoyability of the finished project.

So please, enough of the obvious.

ShakKen
Infiltration
3D artist
 

Omega

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hmm.. can someone please explain...

Hi Shakken,

with all due respect, how is it possible to know what is "obvious" - because in reality - it really ISN'T obvious.

Say for example, the jumping on someone from above. If it was that obvious, how come not one FPS implements it?

I can understand if these suggestions are suggested ad nauseam, which may cause some irritation. But otherwise, I still lack understanding why my suggestions cause offence. Is it because it can't be done, and it's offensive to suggest it because of that fact - because somehow the developers are pressurized to provide something that can't be done? If that's the case, then I apologize, because that is not the intention. The intention is to facilitate brainstorming.

Say for example 'rappel'ing - the reverse has been done- grappling hook, so I don't see why not going downward. Aim at the floor & hook; jump off ledge; let go. I don't believe it's in the roadmap, so how on earth am I supposed to know that it's obvious? So what ISN'T obvious then, - being able to ride horses? Maybe if I suggested that, would I be blamed for suggesting something ludicrous and impossible? Either way I get blamed for doing something I was invited to do!

I can also understand if what I am suggesting directly opposes what you have suggested. Eg. if you think Infiltration should have movie character skins, and I suggest otherwise. But I am really throwing up ideas I haven't read yet in your roadmap (because I was warned to read the roadmap first - so that I did) - therefore I am not opposing anyone's preconceived ideas!

Perhaps you're upset because you've already thought of those ideas, and I make it sound that you haven't? Well in that case, please state explicitly how it is possible for me to know that in advance, IF you have not mentioned anywhere the ideas you have already thought of!

Is it a cultural thing? When I ask for suggestions, I just sift through them, and use only what I find useful. I don't bother with the silly ones, or the impossible ones. Is it a cultural thing that you guys find silly/impossible/obvious suggestions offensive?? I don't see how doing so benefits anybody.

Maybe someone can explain to me, so I can stick only to suggesting what is plainly not obvious to anybody. Because I am tired of being flamed for what I thought was a service.. that is to contribute my ideas for the benefit of others. One of the reasons why I favoured Infiltration over the other up-and-coming mods is because the team seemed readily receptive to ideas - am I now to presume that I have been sorely mistaken, and in fact I should shut-up and only suggest what is not obvious??

Say my Infiltration gamemode idea. Is that obvious? No-one else seems to have thought of it, so it doesn't appear to be. What if I provided 100 ideas, and just one of them made Infiltration famous - the 99 others were just silly. Was I supposed to know which one of those suggestions would be the one? Is it productive to just shut my mouth up because 99 of my ideas are plainly stupid and "obvious". I must be stupid, because I really need someone to explain that one for me. The way I see it, the ONLY thing I can be blamed for is not reading every single thread in the *suggestions* forum, or failing to see what I suggested already exists in the roadmap. Otherwise, forgive me for the lack of a mind-reading device - because I do NOT know what is obvious to... YOU!

-------------
On a lighter note, here are some more suggestions, though I must frankly WARN everybody, that I have not the IQ I seem to be lacking to know whether it is an obvious suggestion.

1) Flying Fox. Something purely for fun, it could be a means of assault or an escape-route. Say from one building to another.
2) Being able to call an airstrike, or artillery backup facilitated maybe by ground laser support.

cheers,
AJY

ps. if any of the above is obvious, please feel free to press the "back" button on your browser. I shall not flame you for it. /infopop/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

Don't frag me, love me

[This message was edited by ajy on Jun 19, 2000 at 07:22.]
 

Katton

Oook?
May 8, 2000
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Ajy, personally, I think all (well, most) of your ideas are good. I don't know why all the other paople seem to think that you giving ideas is offensive. Isn't this WHAT THE MESSAGE BOARD IS FOR??? "New Version Suggestions"

<img src="http://www.angelfire.com/pop/katton/Katton.gif" height="30" width="81" border="0">

"You can run, but you'll only die tired."
 

Alpha_9

Infiltration lead level designer
Jun 1, 2000
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Patience is a virtue...

Ajy, I understand your frustration w/ the tone you see sometimes towards your suggestions and brainstorming. Indeed many who flame you just have bad attitudes, plain and simple.

But I think a little patience towards members of the INF team would be appropriate. After all, they are working very hard at something we're getting for free. They love doing it, sure, but it does come at a certain cost for every one of them.

So if once in a while one of them expresses a little impatience towards your productive imagination, why not just let it slide? Like water down your back. Just develop a tolerance and continue posting your brainstorms.

Some of your ideas are bound to gain some traction down the road, and you will have been responsible for a real and meaningful improvement in whatever version of INF we'll all be playing a year from now... /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif
<h1><font face="symbol">
a 1001</font></h1>
"I love war and responsibility and excitement.
Peace is going to be hell on me."

Gen. George S. Patton, Jr.
 

hurtmypony

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Ajay seems a little hypersensitive, is all. I don't see where anyone inferred that his ideas were offensive. One guy said he like one idea, and that the rest was already shot down. Then, it was simply stated the team was looking for "less exotic" trimmings for their game, as opposed to immense gameplay-changing concepts.

The key to any negotiation or exchange is to present your point objectively and with little personal investment in them. this way, you will be spared the emotional turmoil when they are shot out of the sky like Superman getting hit by Luthor's Krypo-Ray (tm).

To Ajay:

They are fine, but dramatic changes to the Mod, and you are a complete looney to propose them (just testing your resilience to critisism, harhar).

YOUR AD COULD BE HERE
 

Omega

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Dec 19, 1999
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okay then..

Alpha_9: you're right. Inf team: I apologize for any offense I have caused.

hurtmypony: hypersensitive? Well I did not object to being told that my ideas were already suggested and shot down before, nor the fact that Inf team already thought of them - but more that I should only suggest ideas that are not obvious! I've already stated my opinion on that so there.

Don't frag me, love me.
 

hurtmypony

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I was referring to this quote from you:

"I can understand if these suggestions are suggested ad nauseam, which may cause some irritation. But otherwise, I still lack understanding why my suggestions cause offence. Is it because it can't be done, and it's offensive to suggest it because of that fact - because somehow the developers are pressurized to provide something that can't be done?"

1. Use of a form of the word "offense" twice in the above paragraph caused me, the reader, to assume you, the writer, believed that your post was "offensive" to the people that later replied.

2. By reading the same replies, it was my impression that the responses were not suggesting, EVEN REMOTELY, that your ideas were offensive. Maybe impractical, dated and whimsical, but certainly not offensive. So, I decided that you may be a bit on the sensitive side because such a casual slight set you off. Therefore, you were branded with being "hypersensitive", which is (ironically) reinforced by the act of taking time to reply to defend yourself.

3. At this point, I would like to also bring up the observation that you have a particularly "oily" manner of communication. I would daresay it's a form of passive aggression. I have read numerous posts created by you, and all have the same aire of "polite arrogance". You manage to remain courteous, but do not manage to hide away all of your self-importance, and used the "wounded, puppy-dog eyes" whenever someone disagrees with you, a tactic both nefarious and underhanded.

But that's okay with me. Feel free to continue with whatever manner of conversation fits you. I just wanted you to know that someone is aware of your schemes, whether they are subconsciously executed by you or premeditated. It's the oldest trick in the Politician's Handbook.


YOUR AD COULD BE HERE
 

Gringle

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Heh...that's exactly the impression I got. Hehe, you've got a talent for words there. /infopop/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

--Gringle, webmaster of The Redeemer
"The work goes on, the cause endures, the hope still lives, and the dream shall never die." -Theodore Kennedy
 

Alpha_9

Infiltration lead level designer
Jun 1, 2000
1,493
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Give ajy a break...

Really, folks. This is just a message board. No one is "scheming" w/ "nefarious" ulterior motives here. No one is using "underhanded tactics" to perpetrate some evil deed upon us or our beloved mod. Just what do you think ajy is trying to do? So he gets a little defensive at times. And communicates accordingly. That makes him some schemer reading from "the Politician's Handbook"? Really... /infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

The way I see it, ajy simply needs to develop a thicker skin and learn to ignore the bad attitudes he sometimes enounters, especially from characters like hurtmypony.
<h1><font face="symbol">
a 1001</font></h1>
"I love war and responsibility and excitement.
Peace is going to be hell on me."

Gen. George S. Patton, Jr.
 

ShakKen

Specops Spook
Jan 11, 2000
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Ajy: I don't mean to offend you, i'm not in any way angry, just extremely tired.

It's just that you don't seem to have an appreciation to how hard and time consuming it will be to implement some of these features.

FYI, we've already got a pretty good timetable to work on INF, and with what little leeway we have, we are able to work on little additions we feel useful, but for the most part, we have to let slide a huge amount of features.

We have to come back to the messageboards and sift through 10-20 new ideas a day and finding words to say "sorry, it can't be done with UT." and "Sorry, but the idea isnt useful enough to include" without offending people is quite draining.

And if you don't get an answer, you'll probably feel cheated that we didnt even entertain your idea.

I'm just asking you guy's a favor; keep it simple huh? /infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

ShakKen
Infiltration
3D artist
 

Gringle

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Now, hold on there Alpha. Just because it's just a message board doesn't mean that someone can't have a bad attitude. "He gets defensive sometimes and acts accordingly"? Sorry, but are you on crack? Okay, I don't mean that, but accordingly? I have my right to an opinion on what I get angry at and what I don't. Geez, man. Don't defend someone who doesn't warrant a defense. If he wants to defend himself he can do it.

--Gringle, webmaster of The Redeemer
"The work goes on, the cause endures, the hope still lives, and the dream shall never die." -Theodore Kennedy
 

Omega

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Dec 19, 1999
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hurtmypony you couldn't be more wrong.

I think it highly cynical of you to think of me as a self-important oily person. Why do you say that? Because I am polite, and yet actively voice my suggestions?

Have you read how others voice their opinions/suggestions - exactly the same as me - sometimes ever ruder and more demanding. I make it a point to be polite, because I don't want to seem as making demands. The irony is that the outcome of which, is someone thinking I am self-important an oily.

Let me ask you this: if Inf only came out with 4 weapons, and intended not to release anymore, what would you say? How many ways can you tell them to "provide more weapons". You see my point? I am like everybody else, I state my suggestion in the best possible way, and I'm sorry that you see such scheming in nothing.

The only difference between me and everyone else, is that my over-active imagination has gone overdrive and I have made many suggestions in a short period of time. I do it at expense of time to myself - it takes longer to dream them up and type than for someone to read it and trash it. For crying out loud, I even obey the house rules: don't suggest weapons and read the roadmap. I play the rules and people like you see that as scheming, or 'penalise' me for things I couldn't possibly know.

As for hypersensitive - okay I admit it, but can you blame me? Every which way I go, I'd be blamed for something. I'm bloody polite and I'm blamed for being a two-faced politician, if I'm rude, I'd be demanding. However I don't believe I was hypersensitive to Shakken, as I didn't find any problem with his post (not Lost for that matter) until his last statement about the 'obvious'. I mean one sentence can throw off the meaning of your entire post, and it sure threw me off about the meaning.

For the record, I can take fair criticism. If my idea sucks or is plain impossible - I couldn't give a fig. I'm just saying what I think is cool, and great if it can be done, too bad if it can't - I don't care! But I also don't KNOW what exactly what is within Inf's scope, nor what they are capable of. You REALLY think my ideas are all bogus and cannot be done? Rubbish - they CAN, it is just whether they are of enough interest to the developers to do it or not (based on the scope they've decided). You see I am intelligent after-all. I KNOW the developers are good at what they do - no harm at testing them to see if they are willing to take the time to add something extra.

In the end - it is house rules ISN'T IT MATE? You ask for suggestions, then you bloody well are going to get some - otherwise don't waste people's time asking for them, and flaming them for being demanding or being cunning two-faced politicians - that is just pure bogus and you know it. It's a pity to grow up in such a cynical world. At least I have the common courtesy of NOT posting these suggestions in the general discussion, or where they don't belong. Do me a favour and go flame the people that do.

And one more thing. Is it really THAT difficult to ignore a post you think is too ridiculous or demanding for that matter? If there is nothing productive to reply, then why do it? Don't waste their time, and make everybody mad! I am wasting too much time *defending* what everybody else is doing - that is giving suggestions in a SUGGESTIONS FORUM.

cheers,
AJY

ps. Shakken I respect your opinion on the matter - but be assured that you do NOT have to reply to every suggestion. Just let it slide if it irritates you or is just plain ridiculous. It is a lot better than discouraging people who may eventually come up with just one good idea you haven't thought of. Be mindful that all of us DON'T KNOW the scope of work that you have set for yourselves, so we aren't really sure if an idea IS too difficult. Let's face it 99% of all ideas I've seen on this forum ARE doable, it is just a matter of time. Obviously since you are not professional developers, you would not have the resources to entertain every idea - nor the incentive to do so - but c'mon, you know if you really wanted to, you could do most of them. My point is - is it really possible for us to know which ones you think are worth doing? /infopop/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

Don't frag me, love me

[This message was edited by ajy on Jun 19, 2000 at 23:22.]
 

Gringle

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It depends on your perception of "productive". If it is not productive to discourage relative newbies from making mistakes that many have made in the past, then what are we supposed to do? Just let a bunch of people clog up the forums with old mistakes? And the truth is you are just overly sensitive and defensive. Period. No big deal...
And I think that the cynisism is yours. If you read the older posts to you objectively, it was mostly just cautious warning about what the regulars' red buttons were. But you chose to take it as a personal assault and started defending yourself wildly and irrationally. I suppose it's too late now to take back the image you've projected, but I recommend that we all just chill out and move on. Ajy, perhaps you should consider sticking to posts not pertaining to suggestions, be they mapping or general INF. It just bugs the people who know what they're talking about (in regards to mapping or coding) when you suggest un-feasible ideas and then whine when we shoot those ideas down. Just let it all go. Let it all go. Well...don't let it ALL go, that could be messy. But just forget about all the old topics and stop suggesting.

--Gringle, webmaster of The Redeemer
"The harder you fall, the higher you bounce." -Anonymous
 

Catalyst

science begets death
Jul 18, 1999
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Easy there

Well this post seemed to be blown out of proportions. Why are we giving ajy a hard time for suggesting things? He is taking the time to give ideas on how to make Infiltration better; as a game developer you should respect that. If an idea isn't feasible, then just ignore it or respond politely that it just isn't doable. Suggestions are in no way, shape, or form cause to belittle someone (unless they are, of course, new weapon suggestions /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif )

Catalyst
 

Omega

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Dec 19, 1999
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I am not being irrational.

Fact: I do not care if people shoot down my ideas
Proof: read my previous bloody post!

Therefore the reverse is true. You are being irrational for being irritated at me, when I am doing the SAME as everybody else. Suggesting in a suggestions forum. That is a fact is it not?

Fact: This is a suggestions forum, yet you command me not to give any suggestions.

Fact: (and this is the clincher!!!) 99% of all my ideas have been done in other games - which proves they ARE feasible. It's only a question whether the Inf team have the time/desire to do it or not - and how am I supposed to know which ones they personally would like to attempt? You are asking the impossible. To even THINK that the things I said were supposed to be magically foreknown as obvious/"unfeasible" by everyone living in the world is stupid. You mean you are going to personally trash all newbies? Sorry, but the protocol is to have a FAQ - if newbies don't read that, then that is the ONLY time you are allowed to trash them. Other than that, you are just being aggressive and quite arrogant I might add.

-----

And you call me emotional and irrational? The facts speak for themselves. I am just defending my right to SPEAK. If you take the time to suggest things, and are told to shutup I think you would do the same IF:
1) you are NOT breaking any laid down rules
2) you have NOT been told what is 'obvious'
3) you are NOT being purposely offensive.

As it is, everything some people said is objectionable, confrontational and not to mention offensive. I have been called names, implied that I am two-faced with some devious ulterior motive (go figure), and that I should not suggest anything in a *suggestions* forum (go figure) - finally to cap that off, it's suggested that I am the irrational and the emotional one. Now pardon me for thinking people are looking at themselves.

Now you gotta ask yourself. How did this degenerate into such a juvenile argument? I suggested something, and people made it as if I was being *evil* and demanding. HA! Prove it! I dare you, because not once did I criticize anybody, not this mod, the modders, nor did I make demands, nor did I care if anybody ignored me (unlike others), nor did I make any fuss about my ideas if someone thought they were impossible or silly. So HOW, may I ask, does one even conceive those ridiculous ideas about me? Just because I defended myself, when it was suggested that I shouldn't state the 'obvious' whatever that is? HA! Even then that was wrong, I defended the right to MAKE a suggestion - not the fact that my ideas were silly.

In the end you can't win, because my posts are there for everybody to see, that I did not in any way break protocol, nor was offensive, nor did I repeat anything in the roadmap. What do you have? nothing. Furthermore, can you say that I am doing ANYTHING different to all the other people making suggestions? Why pick on me?

Please, what is wrong with you simply ignoring what you don't like. What purpose (and this is a genuine question) could you possibly serve by constantly harassing me for something you don't like. Just use your back button.. it works for me. Now that's rationale!

Lastly, you are very rude. On whose authority have you to demand that I make no more suggestions on a *suggestions* forum. Let me demand that of you, and see if you will act any differently to me. Let me trash you just because you make a suggestion (rather than just the suggestion itself), and let me see how rational you will be. I again reiterate: what the heck am I doing that everybody else making suggestions is not doing. Go bug those who can't even read instructions - leave me alone!

/infopop/emoticons/icon_mad.gif
AJY

ps. I have over 2 years regular attendance on a world renown hobby forum (presidents of famous brand name companies participate here), and not once has anyone been so rude as they have been in this thread. People were absolute gentleman, and it was the REGULARS who defended the newbies who were trashed (by other relative newbies!) for asking questions asked hundreds of times before. Keeping that in mind, please understand why my reaction to such aggressive opposition was both a shocked one, and provoked such essay-like defense. In olden times, I would have simply slapped you across the face with my glove and thrown it on the ground.

pps. I appreciate those who 'helped' me in this thread. It goes to show, I am not some crazy maniac, and that I am right when I say I am doing the same as everybody else. It also goes to show that there are only a few snobs (not Shakken) that think otherwise.

Don't frag me, love me.

[This message was edited by ajy on Jun 20, 2000 at 04:24.]
 
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