ok, well, I was going to avoid this topic but now I'm going to wade into the deep end. I'm going to try and make this as honest, sincere, and non-offensive as possible. I'm not going to bash anyone or anything in particular, and I'm not going to call anyone stupid or ignorant, etc etc. I'm not going to say anything or anyone is evil or get into hearsay about the specific beliefs of any certain denomination.
I want to see if we can press on the finer points of this debate without getting personal. I encourage you to read my entire post (if you're even going to start) before you decide to reply to any one part of it.
I want to try and have a respectful discussion for once...
Just because someone has faith in something that you don't believe in, however, does not mean that their logic in the real world is in any way affected. You think that you are presenting an airtight, logical argument, but you're simply begging the question. There are scads of very intelligent, rational effective people who believe in various religions, from world leaders to scientists, who demonstrate on a daily basis the ability to be rational in all of their affairs.
I think the bigger issue is the bigger picture.
I understand that for every atheist or agnostic scientist and philosopher, there are at least as many renowned rationalists and scientists have still hold a belief in some greater power or force; be it god or an unspecified overseer.
but what I don't understand at the end of the day, no matter how hard I try, is why do intelligent people feel the need to believe in these things to begin with?
as you so eloquently stated Jason, belief does not have to affect intelligence and vise versa, because they are completely separate spectrums. there is no place for belief on the rational spectrum.
that's fine of course.
but going forward (as a species, as the human race) I simply cannot figure out why the belief is necessary to anyone.
let me phrase it like this.
if you're an inmate at state prison and you're incarcerated for life without the possibility for parole (or trapped in some kind of similar, hopeless situation) then "finding" Jesus, for example, makes a lot of sense to me. because those are some rough times and spirituality can make peace out of a chaotic environment.
but for intelligent people living fulfilling lives with all the liberty that many people around the world would kill for, why do they feel the need to believe in something that they know they cannot see/touch/feel or otherwise find any evidence for?
this isn't about one religion, this isn't about one god, and this isn't about anyone or any place or any time in particular. it's just a concept that I cannot grasp.
where does the need to believe in the irrational come from in an otherwise rational person?
without trying to upset anyone or call anyone out, can't we just stop for a minute and agree that religion is a farce?
there's so many different kinds with so many conflicting rules and inconsistencies; religion exists in the form that is
exactly what you would expect of something that was man-made.
there's a thousand different brands, none of them are compatible, they all purport to be the one/true calling, and they're all at odds with each other.
so.
either JUST ONE of them is right. in which case; lucky guess.
or.
ALL of them are wrong.
or.
ALL of them are right.
which is - of course - impossible.
so why do people subject themselves to any of it?
that's what I can never figure out.
I mean it's so obvious.
religion is farcical in all forms. let's just admit this and move on. faith is faith but that's because faith is inherent gullibility. the word HAS to be "faith" because it could never be "certainty."
if you raise a child in a non-denominational environment then they will grow up and get through life just fine. as good and well-adjusted as any other person raised in a loving, caring household; with faith or not. the point being that if you could raise an entire society today (educating them in all the facets of current knowledge about our world and universe) within a vacuum that was
void of religious influence, then I'm pretty sure you would find that there's no need for religion.
the vast majority of people raised without having a religion beaten into them at an early age don't find any reason for it later in life. if you want faith to get you through the hard times then you'll find it in your friends, family, and joy for the beauty that is life.
in other words there's no calling.
the holy spirit doesn't manifest itself when you're not looking for it because it only exists inside your brain. it is so obviously man-made.
if you want to believe then that's fine.
but we've got to admit that it's 99.99999999999999^9% false.
you can maintain your faith, by all means, but you have to admit that in all likelihood it's simply not real. only then can we move on to the important questions and the bigger picture.
for instance, it's pretty evident that no matter who you are, your religion is determined (first and foremost) by where you were born and who you were born to. a girl born in the United Arab Emirates is positively sure that Muhammad is the one true savior and that Allah is the only way into the afterlife. a boy born in Kentucky is sure that Jesus Christ is the one true savior and that (the Abrahamic) God is the only way into the afterlife.
that's the point in and of itself.
how can anything be right or true when all of it is based on mere happenstance? your passion for your beliefs is dictated merely by the luck of your fathers sperm. sometimes people change their beliefs, sure, by studying other tenets that were unavailable to them as children. but then surely that's more evidence of how ridiculous it all is; that you can change your faith in the ULTIMATE question about life on a whim, that you can shift with the seasons.
but these are supposed to be your answers to the INFINITE.
how can they be so loose? how can their power to you be based on nothing more than luck of the draw? how can you put
faith in something that can be taken with such
faithlessness?
we also must consider the trajectory of our own existence.
as I'm sure you are aware, almost 99% of the species that have existed on planet Earth are now extinct. most species die out or evolve into forms that are nearly unrecognizable to the previous chain. is man suddenly so special? are we just going to stop here? with our 4 digits, 1 opposable thumb, a spleen that does nothing, a brain that weighs 5 pounds, and hair that only grows on our head?
are we the final outcome? of course not, that's absurd.
homosapien is who we are now.
it's not who we always were, and it's not who we are always going to be. the apocalypse
will not be the return of the messiah and the purging of the sinful to the fires of Hell. it's either going to be our next world war or - if we make it long enough - some form of natural disaster such as an asteroid or the inevitable death of our sun and collapse of our solar system into the black hole left in it's wake.
who is going to be witnessing these events?
not humans, that's for sure. the sun isn't due to go supernova for another 5 billion years or so; that's about how much hydrogen it has left to fuel its nuclear fusion.
assuming we manage to not kill ourselves for even HALF that long (you know, just the next 2.5 billion years), the "people" that will be alive to seriously contemplate these events won't be human; not the humans we know. yet every religious text on Earth is predicated on human action as witnesses to both the beginning and the end.
how convenient it is that most of the world's major religions were founded in a place and era when literacy and science were at an all-time low. how convenient that god only made bushes burn and seas part when no one had access to a video camera or the ability to critically analyze and document the phenomenon for future generations. how convenient that miracles and saviors and the only "proof" we might ever have only occurred so long ago they are impossible to verify.
why can't we get over this as a species?
why do you need to believe in any part of any of it?
why can't the love of your friends, family, and utter beauty of the natural world be all the faith you'll ever need?
Junior Seau took his own life this week.
you might have seen his parents and children on TV talking to the press. they were hysterical, they were crying and screaming; all the faith in the world cannot alleviate their inability to understand why something like this would happen. to accentuate the problem, their faith teaches them that suicide is a mortal sin for which you sill surely go to Hell for committing.
why let people believe this tragic nonsense?
in spite of a life lived with the utmost grace and care for others, why compound their grief with the idea that their son/father/brother is now forever being tortured among a lake of fire just because he did something that an old book says you shouldn't do?
why do you believe in Santa until it becomes evident that he could not exist?
why do you distinguish between Mother Goose and Dr. Seuss but not John, Luke, or Paul?
why?