UTXMP is a BETA.

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T-Shinzon

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Sep 28, 2004
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UTXMP is a beta, and it has the unbalances commonly found in a beta.
Now here are my (and some of my aquaintences') opinions, but we are all very experienced (as in we were there for the original U2 XMP beta and are now pretty much experts) and our opinions should hold weight. Feel free to ignore them, but doing so would probably be a bad idea. Don't feel obligated to accomodate every single one (some are subjective).

Ok, prepare for a long one. Here goes...

_+=First of all, weapon balance is "off."=+_

The tech is too weak: his incendiary fire is too weak, his assault rifle secondary doesn't have good aim (which is a necessity with that wep), etc.

The ranger's pistol is no longer semi-automatic, and it is very weak as well because of that. The ranger's sniper rifle doesn't "feel" very good, I can't even tell that it fired at all. The ranger's smoke grenade doesn't hide much at all.

The gunner is currently the best class. His rockets are powerful. His conc grenades move WAY too FAST and I can get tons of frags with those. His flamethrower emitter tends to stay floating in midair randomly. Conc grenades do not tip over vehicles any more.

The jugg minigun is not a good change. You can't hit anything with it, and it isnt very cool. It just doesn't look very good. Bring back the flamethrower, please.

Being able to switch between gunner/driver positions without leaving the vehicle turns the juggernaut into a super-one-man-monster-kill-machine. It really unbalances the vehicles. I now (in UTXMP) prefer the jugg to any other when I want to kill someone from a vehicle. I can dodge grenades in it since I switch seats.

The turrets are kinda unbalanced in that they are very hard to kill with certain weapons that worked well before (i.e. incendiary grenades).

If you place an auto-turret and then pick it up, you can't place it again.

Sometimes you get stuck constantly switching between 2 weapons.

_=+Second, many of the emitters are "off" and not visually impressive enough, and also sounds have some problems.+=_

The deploy spawn emitters, as you probably already know, aren't even close to being properly aligned timewise. Also the spinning lightning stuff (squiggly) sucks. Replace it with beams or something. And add those expanding elliptical ovals like in U2XMP so that they are actually noticeable.

The bullet trail emitters stay active far too long. Also, you can't see your own. (sniper rifle)

The incendiary grenade emitter is not as cool as before and CPU-heavy. The U2 one was much better and more realistic and cooler.

The shotgun primary hit effects feel wimpy (shotgun bullets should appear to penetrate the level, like in U2, and have a more satisfying sound).

Gas grenades look wrong, and same when they are attached to a player. Too heavy on the players, and not thick enough on the ground. I advise you to increase the size of the sprites. Also, gas should have more "reach."

EMP grenades look weird, but thats not too much of a problem.

The Raptor minigun needs to be spread out to look like the original.

The Juggernaut main turret's explosion looks plain wrong. It sounds "off" as well. The explosion sends vehicles flying, too (which is realistic, but I sent a Harbinger across the map and couldn't kill it 'cause it "got away" purely on the Jugg shots).

The Harbinger shock turret shoots way too slow.

Game is definitely not loud enough (vocal messages are tons louder than effects sounds)

Forcewall lasers tend to stay after the generators have been blown up, and they also sometimes go to random locations. Looks bad.

When running over deployables, they don't explode but simple disappear.

The boost on the Raptor isn't really like a "boost" more of an exhaust and not right. Faster flames would help both performance and looks.

_=+Physics are not good.+=_

Everything feels "slo-mo" or low-grav, and very sluggish.

You can't jump as high.

You can't mantle.

The gunner is too nimble. I can run circles around rangers (ok thats a bit of an exaggeration.)

Every time you land there is a "bob" in the screen, prevents dodging back and forth fast. This can be disabled, but it shouldn't be an option at all.

Every time I try to dodge-boost-land-dodge-boost-etc., I accidentally boost (due to the coding) instead on the second dodge and it screws me up.

I can't due bunny-hopping dodge stuff as often anymore.

The Raptor spins out on certain hills.

_=+Models! (and other visuals)+=_

Players seem too small.

Crosshairs need some work.

The Raptor is too low to the ground, looks like a wide rubber-wheel skateboard. That's kinda personal, but the Raptor now seems less of a vehicle and more like those "suicide raptors."

The HUD looks like it was designed for children. WAAAY too blocky/bulky. Some elements should be moved around, and it's plain confusing when shields and health go opposite ways. The old HUD was much more useful.

You have to bring back the name tags above teammates. Team-killing is incredibly prevalent due to the absence of the aforementioned tags.

Summary: UTXMP is not perfect YET. That's what a BETA is.

Ok done for now. The reason for this is because I want UTXMP to be just as good as U2XMP, not just halfway to the summit of Everest.

I also learned that if you try to discuss this on a server, you get kicked. ;)

But Good Job, FMI, for getting half-way there! Release some patches soon!

:)
 
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Majai

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Aug 18, 2004
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When you constantly whine about it on a server for over 4 maps you get kicked. Its not like you were not warned quite a few times. People get annoyed after 4 maps of the same BS, unless you did not see everyone telling you to quit it. Very good comments though.

They belong on the forums not on a server where people want to play.
 

T-Shinzon

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Sep 28, 2004
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Majai said:
When you constantly whine about it on a server for over 4 maps you get kicked. Its not like you were not warned quite a few times. People get annoyed after 4 maps of the same BS, unless you did not see everyone telling you to quit it. Very good comments though.

They belong on the forums not on a server where people want to play.

I wasn't whining, I made clear my intent for getting players to tell me about things they don't like, but I may have gone out of hand. Yeah, I realize that the comments belonged here and not there, but I was kinda fumed :mad: at the time over the initial dissapointment of an imperfect product. Of course, that implies that I wanted perfection first go, which is way too much to ask of FMI. :lol: (please don't take that as an insult, FMI :D )
 

[DF]phalanx

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Aug 15, 2002
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ok speech time
now FMI released this because everyone complained because of closed beta, and all everyone does when they get it is complain about the weapon balance and movement and other little things that can be added in the next version with no problems. you wanted the game FMI have worked hard these past few days getting it into a playable state would you rather have a crappy lgame with worse lag then XMP or something not quite right and playable. IMO we should be happy we got what we have now rather then complaining becasue its not like XMP, getting balance exactly correct is proebly the hardest part of the conversion so please rather then complain about that concentrate on map bugs, weapon bugs and other problems that FMI probebly wouldn't know about rather then weapon balance, player sizes, scaling FMI will probebly be working on this as i speak so can we please concentrate on the annoying lesser bugs.
 

headwire

ranger extraordinaire
Dec 28, 2003
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A lot of this could be in bug reporting section, which is where I'm sure they'll look for improvements. :)
 

T-Shinzon

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Sep 28, 2004
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Phalanx, the reason people are complaining is to make UTXMP better for future releases. As you may have noticed, there already is a "Thank You FMI" thread. If no one complained, then UTXMP would not get better. Personally, I want UTXMP to be better. Don't you? ;)

::EDIT::

Okay I added a link to this thread in the bug reports section, as per your suggestion headwire. :)
 
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Sir_Brizz

Administrator
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Feb 3, 2000
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Complaining doesn't help

Constructive criticism does.

too many of these threads are complaining and not enough helping.
 

|pure|Destruction

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Jan 22, 2004
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I have kinda came to terms overnight with accepting how the mod has thus far turned out. I understand that its not easy to complete to perfection. Though it was very pissy when waiting for it for so long and it kinda wasnt what I expected. So, I guess playing with people who know how to play is the best way to experience utxmp with less frustrations due to no one reviving you, people teamkilling, not knowing what to do, etc... But If im going to play it for a month or two before a patch is released, my only issue is the crosshairs, especially the one on the sniper rifle with low detail. Maps are almost perfect though.
 

Zur

surrealistic mad cow
Jul 8, 2002
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Just a few words I want to add here. You don't encourage people to fix things when you simply complain. If anything this has the opposite effect, especially when the thing to improve is a creative process. What one should do in this case is engage in what is called constructive critisism which is devoid of any negative undertones.

I'm not necessarily posting this in response to T-Shinzon as he his post is partially constructive but it might be food for thought for anyone reading this thread.
 

Smood

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Nov 29, 2003
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T-shinzon said:
The bullet trail emitters stay active far too long. Also, you can't see your own. (sniper rifle)

You could not see you your own trail emitters in ORIGINAL xmp either. This is ok, the only thing they should add is a small movement (shake) of the scope when you fire.
 

FireCrack

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May 25, 2004
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Personaly i like all of the new emmiters (especialy incendiary nades)

except

The emp in UTxmp looked nice because it had those glowing blue bouncy things, that were awesom.

and

Not too fond of the spawn emmiter 100%, suggest an addition of a wide slow moving beam that comes down from the spinny part while spinning.


Ofcourse focus should be on bugs and balance first.
 

Kazuma

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Dec 10, 2004
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Hi, just registered to say that I agree with most of the points the thread starter has put down, especially in weapon balance

Some balance issues (all this in comparison with the original XMP)

- Gunner's flamethrower is too weak. In original XMP the flamethrower was king in close range esp corridors but presently it takes around 2 secs more to kill anything. The Gunner's main balancing factor was in its less nimble movement.

- The Tech's assault rifle cone of fire is way too big. Almost all techs use the shotgun only now.

- Gas grenades should blow up in a cloud instantly. Presently, it's too slow acting to work properly.

- Smoke grenades should be completely opaque and, as above, must blow up instantly. The classic smoke and grab artifact technique for rangers is completely useless now.

- One of my favourite techniques with a Raptor was doing 180s by hitting the 'NOS' and braking with a turn. Not anymore :( . (Low priority, sorry if its possible now with right click - I'm not an ons person so the thought only just crossed my mind)

- Raptor's minigun is way too weak. I hardly run for cover now.

- The Raptor's gunner seat view has too much interference.

- One of the class balancing I liked most about XMP, whether intended or not, was that there was kind of a rock, scissor, paper balance. In my personal experience in melee combat, I tend to kill more Gunners with Rangers, more Techs with Gunners and more Rangers with Techs. Eg as strong as the Gunner is 2 shots is all a Ranger need to down one, but its harder to pull it off a tech who can close in more rapidly with the shotgun. But note that it's only a very slight advantage. Presently the equation is leaning towards the Gunner.

Hope this is constructive enough.
 

HwK

New Member
Jun 27, 2004
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It could be my keyboard.... but my dodging/movement sucks now....

crosshairs need work
nades need work

sometimes you cant get rid of class selection....so you cant switch positions in vehicles

<-- got over 100 gutblows already...lol

btw.... does the stats tracker work for this yet?

:( I miss u2XMP
 

Sir_Brizz

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Feb 3, 2000
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Kazuma said:
- Gunner's flamethrower is too weak. In original XMP the flamethrower was king in close range esp corridors but presently it takes around 2 secs more to kill anything. The Gunner's main balancing factor was in its less nimble movement.
I don't agree. Additionally, I don't think that the flamethrower was vey balanced in U2XMP, because it should be a FINISHING weapon, not a knick everything barely and kill it all weapon.
- The Tech's assault rifle cone of fire is way too big. Almost all techs use the shotgun only now.
Agreed. The AR is worthless (although I ALWAYS used shotgun instead of AR even in u2xmp).
- Gas grenades should blow up in a cloud instantly. Presently, it's too slow acting to work properly.
The cloud should be big instantly, if that's what you mean. Right now it's too small and grows too slow.
- Smoke grenades should be completely opaque and, as above, must blow up instantly. The classic smoke and grab artifact technique for rangers is completely useless now.
The current smoke grenades are better for balance, IMO.
- One of my favourite techniques with a Raptor was doing 180s by hitting the 'NOS' and braking with a turn. Not anymore :( . (Low priority, sorry if its possible now with right click - I'm not an ons person so the thought only just crossed my mind)
Since it uses the built in vehicle code, pressing jump and a direction will pull a 180.
- Raptor's minigun is way too weak. I hardly run for cover now.
Always was, IMO.
- The Raptor's gunner seat view has too much interference.
Disagree.
- One of the class balancing I liked most about XMP, whether intended or not, was that there was kind of a rock, scissor, paper balance. In my personal experience in melee combat, I tend to kill more Gunners with Rangers, more Techs with Gunners and more Rangers with Techs. Eg as strong as the Gunner is 2 shots is all a Ranger need to down one, but its harder to pull it off a tech who can close in more rapidly with the shotgun. But note that it's only a very slight advantage. Presently the equation is leaning towards the Gunner.
The Rock Paper Scissors was never in terms of how many shots someone took. It was in the ABILITIES of the classes. This is still there, although the weapons need SLIGHT tweaking.
 

Kazuma

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Dec 10, 2004
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Sir_Brizz said:
I don't agree. Additionally, I don't think that the flamethrower was vey balanced in U2XMP, because it should be a FINISHING weapon, not a knick everything barely and kill it all weapon.

It was never a kill-all weapon, and neither did I mean it that way. It killed roughly 1-2 secs faster than now. U could still get a couple of buckshots in and win a melee. Presently it's senseless to switch to the flame even for a finisher when the rocket is a way better to start and end with.

Agreed. The AR is worthless (although I ALWAYS used shotgun instead of AR even in u2xmp).

It wasn't really useless, it was the tech's form of medium to longer range attack.. useful vs gunners

The current smoke grenades are better for balance, IMO.

If it stays this way, the only time u'll see smoke is when n00bs test the weapon out.

Since it uses the built in vehicle code, pressing jump and a direction will pull a 180.
Thanks for the clarification

The Rock Paper Scissors was never in terms of how many shots someone took. It was in the ABILITIES of the classes. This is still there, although the weapons need SLIGHT tweaking.
we're familiar with their class specific abilities by now.. I was talking only melee here, and melee abilities are more than the number of shots to kill. Alot of it to do with weapon balance, movement, and lesser extent the size (psychological, which is fine since its the same models) etc.
 

FireCrack

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May 25, 2004
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Yeah, AR needs more acuracy and the tracers from it should be gone or lightened substantialy. It looks like some weird bug when the tech is firing right now. Also i think the alt shot should be sped up.

Right now even in long range situations the shottie is the weapon of choice, mabye it needs a tad more spread on primary, i'm not sure however.
 

Sir_Brizz

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Feb 3, 2000
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Kazuma said:
It was never a kill-all weapon, and neither did I mean it that way. It killed roughly 1-2 secs faster than now. U could still get a couple of buckshots in and win a melee. Presently it's senseless to switch to the flame even for a finisher when the rocket is a way better to start and end with.
Are you kidding? In U2XMP the Flamethrower was spray-and-pray...and 9 times out of ten it was spray-pray-kill-spray-pray-kill-die.
It wasn't really useless, it was the tech's form of medium to longer range attack.. useful vs gunners
I meant the current one not the original one. The old one had it's uses but in the beta toomany complained about it's accuracy, vis a vis, it's weaker.
If it stays this way, the only time u'll see smoke is when n00bs test the weapon out.
Then what's the usefulness of a smoke grenade in a game like CS???
we're familiar with their class specific abilities by now.. I was talking only melee here, and melee abilities are more than the number of shots to kill. Alot of it to do with weapon balance, movement, and lesser extent the size (psychological, which is fine since its the same models) etc.
I don't really notice a difference...like so many complain about.
 

[DF]phalanx

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ok
a few things
i'm glad gas nades are **** they are annoying bit of crap anyway all they did was lag and cause cheap lame spam kills
the vehicle guns radius seems to have gone ****e.
the flamethower is now **** alt fire doesn't do anything apart from lay green bushes which do nothing anyway
the effects on vehicle guns is bad for eyes as you have to squint to make out a target
assault rifle tracers just get annoying and arn't needed and alt fire needs its accuracy back (as does primary) it used to pwn in XMP now it sux
hard to plant a shot at anyones feet due to the fact they seem to stay in the air longer and have enough personal energy to keep going

if the pistol was set back to how it was it would give ranger advantage at melee as the flamethrower is ****, shotgun is slow and rangers hop about too much to be hit by it
in the origional XMP i used assault rifle to take out close range rangers due to its accuracy, now that its all over the place its hard to do so
i do like the new gunner gnade tho i couldn't use the other one, this one i have knocked up a few decent frags already
IMO gunner should be left (apart from flamethrower) as its fine
tech needs the assault rifle back to how it was
ranger needs better crosshair make the pistol as good as it was in XMP damage and fire rate wise but keep accuracy down to what alt AR is now or maybe a little better