You don't have to lose the views, it's the attitude, which has changed. Now, as we're on good terms, welcome to BuF!
Edit: kafros, rofl at the picture.
Edit: kafros, rofl at the picture.
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UT-nerfed
- Thread starter MANIFOLD
- Start date
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kafros, I need that pic in my sig! 
Here's my idea on how to train newbies, taken from an earlier thread:
Here's my idea on how to train newbies, taken from an earlier thread:
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MANIFOLD said:
Self defacing? Usually you need to make them only if you've defaced others, namely the countless ONS fans and the Epic/DE team (you know, those guys and gals that spend their days making the game you claim to be a 'pro' at?
You join this community, and in your VERY FIRST POST, you rip apart people and even this community itself, and then you get confused when you get smacked around for it. Hey, you asked for it ok?
If I went into a D3 community and started spouting off things like 'It sucks, the MP is catered for noobs, the ID team aren't listening to me or my suggestions blah blah blah', what do you think would happen? Do you believe they'd all say OMG HE'S RIGHT!.. Is that what you thought would happen here?
You keep saying that you want to distance yourself from phrases such as elitist and 'pro'. Well, bub. Firstly, YOU were the one to bring those phrases into the conversation in your very first post and yes, you DO sound like an elitist 'pro' whiner. Don't blame us for the way you depict yourself.
Example:
"I also noted that those same arrogant and elite players only want the steep learning curve because they're petty and enjoy owning noobs in pubs"
"I don't think I'm alone when I say that I won't be buying this game if the learning curve or the movements are substantially changed."
Look, that's fine ok? You don't like the game, don't buy it, and yes, you're entitled to your opinions, but you've barely posted any. All you've done is whined a lot and not suggested ANY alternatives or solutions.
If Epic did read this thread, what do you believe they'd think of your post's content? Remember now, it was because Epic listened mostly to these so called 'elitist pro-whiners' that ut2k3 got totally bombed.
"That I've not responded in kind to the personal attacks from you and Deepershade is apology enough. You certainly wouldn't make them to me in person."
You obviously really don't know me. Internet or RL, you act like you're somehow better than the rest of the world and yes, I will lay a smackdown on your ass.
DeeperShade said:
I've admitted fault with regards to ONS. With regards to Epic/DE, I get to say whatever I want as along as I believe its true. And I still believe that better teaching and player divisions is the only thing that needs to be changed.
You're the one who is taking this to a personal level. I would characterize my original post as a rant, and not in any way constructive. I never claimed it was, just as I have never claimed to be pro. But guess what, I get to do that. Just like people in the ons community can label me an elitist pro for wanting a steep learning curve.
smackdown? ha
I'm not better than the world, just you.
Regards
MANIFOLD
MANIFOLD said:
You've just spent the last few posts telling everyone how you're not egocentric, nor are you 'elitist' and you finish you post with "I'm not better than the world, just you."
ROFL
Seriously, I can understand you wanting to voice your opinion, and yes, you are entitled to that, but you must concider HOW to voice that opinion.
I do have some questions for you. So please, try and answer:
1.) Firstly, why these forums? Why did you choose to come here to voice your rant. You want Epic/DE to see it? Try INA. They do view these forums but I think you'll find they view INA a bit more with it being their forums and all. Because we have people here who like and defend ONS? Well, they have people who like ONS over at INA.
2.) What truly makes you believe that there won't be a learning curve to UT2007? They are changing things which means everyone's going to be facing the same new learning curve. Would it be fair to say you're against it, because as the new game comes out, you are no longer 'pro' nor a 'teacher' to noobs. Your status within whatever group you stand would be dropped to nadda same as everyone else.
Personally, I don't see a problem, so enlighten me, what is your problem?
3.) Why do you believe that only the ONS section of all of our community (yes, whether you like it or not, they are a part of this and all Unreal based communities) are labeling you elitist?
4.) "You're the one who is taking this to a personal level." - Oh, I see. So no ONS player nor anyone within this community, nor EPIC/DE themselves are going to be even mildly upset at your lack of respect for anyone but yourself? My bad. I take it all back. You are infact a well balanced, intellectual person. Happy now?
5.) "With regards to Epic/DE, I get to say whatever I want as along as I believe its true." - Right, and those terrorists can say whatever they want about you, your country, your people, and your right to exist as long as they believe it to be true huh? heh.
Well, I guess you're partially right. You do have the right to say what you want as long as you believe it. And I have the right to correct you when you're wrong, so we're both happy.
Tah for playing
*looks at this thread*
Can't we all just watch Tori Amos on Craig Furgeson and then watch Blind Date for the funny thought bubbles?
Can't we all just watch Tori Amos on Craig Furgeson and then watch Blind Date for the funny thought bubbles?
Deepershade... cool it, man. You're getting personal and it's not necessary.
Let me address your points.
1) People are welcome to voice their opinions here. That's why we have a forum. If your opinion differs, make your case convincingly. Second, Epic and most certainly DE don't pay much attention to INA anymore. Epic has its own forum and DE is out of the Unreal business.
2) You're making a big assumption about MANI's motives. I happen to think you're misunderstanding him.
4) You're getting personal and are doing so in that post.
Now, back to the subject at hand:
From what I've read, Epic is concerned about the accessibility of the gameplay. I happen to enjoy the complexity, but let's face it, it isn't working. Why not try something else? I don't think the changes are so drastic that someone who is familiar with the whole series is going to feel alienated. It's really important to have complex gameplay evolve from simple mechanics.
The comments they are making about bringing the game up close and personal are encouraging to me. UT2003 turned into a LtG/SR fest. UT2004 is still very much a "shoot the pixel across the screen and run away" game. The game is about combat - not running away. The fact that more advanced players can do stunts that Jackie Chan and Jet Li would be jealous of doesn't help encourage the newcomer much.
I don't want a dumbed down boring shooter either. But there are ways to make the game easier to learn without taking away practiced skills.
Let me address your points.
1) People are welcome to voice their opinions here. That's why we have a forum. If your opinion differs, make your case convincingly. Second, Epic and most certainly DE don't pay much attention to INA anymore. Epic has its own forum and DE is out of the Unreal business.
2) You're making a big assumption about MANI's motives. I happen to think you're misunderstanding him.
4) You're getting personal and are doing so in that post.
Now, back to the subject at hand:
From what I've read, Epic is concerned about the accessibility of the gameplay. I happen to enjoy the complexity, but let's face it, it isn't working. Why not try something else? I don't think the changes are so drastic that someone who is familiar with the whole series is going to feel alienated. It's really important to have complex gameplay evolve from simple mechanics.
The comments they are making about bringing the game up close and personal are encouraging to me. UT2003 turned into a LtG/SR fest. UT2004 is still very much a "shoot the pixel across the screen and run away" game. The game is about combat - not running away. The fact that more advanced players can do stunts that Jackie Chan and Jet Li would be jealous of doesn't help encourage the newcomer much.
I don't want a dumbed down boring shooter either. But there are ways to make the game easier to learn without taking away practiced skills.
For some reason i welcome Deep's return to these forums for a while, and i think he has valid points. It's only fair that if someone comes in here and rants somewhat, especially defacing parts of the community, that he gets taken apart for it. If that person can go on to be normal then all the best to them
On the topic - i enjoy the gameplay mechanisms in 2kx and i wouldn't want too much of a change, but as with hal we have to realise that some change will happen in order to help bring the community back. That change could be larger scale, which will make models easier to hit when they're doing the jumps; more fluid movements; no dodgejump; higher standard FOV amongst things. It won't be too bad, and it will be well worth it if they can increase the community by a few thousand percent by it.
On the topic - i enjoy the gameplay mechanisms in 2kx and i wouldn't want too much of a change, but as with hal we have to realise that some change will happen in order to help bring the community back. That change could be larger scale, which will make models easier to hit when they're doing the jumps; more fluid movements; no dodgejump; higher standard FOV amongst things. It won't be too bad, and it will be well worth it if they can increase the community by a few thousand percent by it.
shadow_dragon
is ironing his panties!
I think, in fairness Manifold started out on the harsh side and got on peoples bad sides understandably... but since ahs explained himself fairly about three or four times. Why are people still beating on him? It is getting to the point that he said he was worried about that involved people calling him elitist jsut for having an opinion.
Anyway, my contribution to this thread is that Manifold misread this:
In any case i really don't understand how removing the learning curve but retaining everytihng for veterans is a bad thing? Surely to keep the learning curve would involve the developers purposely going OUT of their way to make the game harder to learn? Maybe i'm mistaken.
Anyway, my contribution to this thread is that Manifold misread this:
As this:
In any case i really don't understand how removing the learning curve but retaining everytihng for veterans is a bad thing? Surely to keep the learning curve would involve the developers purposely going OUT of their way to make the game harder to learn? Maybe i'm mistaken.
hal said:
I am cool, and I didn't ask you to address my points as I wanted to hear Mani's responses, but thank you anyway.
As SD points out, Mani did come in a bit harshly, and I responded in kind. He's since stopped the harshness, as have I.
You should know me well enough by now Hal, I give as good as I get. If someone throws a stone at me, I throw it back. If someone gives me a rose, i give them a hug, simple as.
oh, and 2.) I'm not making any assumptions. I merely stated what it appears to be and asked whether or not this was correct.
"That I've not responded in kind to the personal attacks from you and Deepershade is apology enough. You certainly wouldn't make them to me in person."
hal, Deepershade's post wasn't called for, but this MANIFOLD guy should stop being personal, proven by the above quote (which I couldn't be arsed putting in quote tags) and he did post that, therefore Deepsy did have justification in some form. If that "you" is reffering to me, I take the welcome post back. What you are doing is comparable to posting "Meh pen0r is teh hugez0r!!!!11111onethousandonehundredandeleven!!!!!fortysix. You are trying to ego boost. Call this unjustified, but he was the one who started the personal remarks thing.
hal, Deepershade's post wasn't called for, but this MANIFOLD guy should stop being personal, proven by the above quote (which I couldn't be arsed putting in quote tags
) and he did post that, therefore Deepsy did have justification in some form. If that "you" is reffering to me, I take the welcome post back. What you are doing is comparable to posting "Meh pen0r is teh hugez0r!!!!11111onethousandonehundredandeleven!!!!!fortysix. You are trying to ego boost. Call this unjustified, but he was the one who started the personal remarks thing.I'd prefer to sort this out over a nice cup of coffeeUncleThursday said:
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The main thing Epic needs to do is to get it's single player mode better. It also needs to refine it's bot's target aquisition skills - i.e. the bots identify targets when you might be behind a corner or in a bot's blind spot.
By getting single player "right", and a lot more interesting, new players will learn how to play well offline.
But I remember all the fun there was to be had when getting to drive vehicles for the first time in the demo, learning how everything worked; and we were all at the same point in the game's learning curve. I remember thinking how useless and ineffective the energy turrets were.......
....The way things are now, a new player playing online for the first time is like an aztec suddenly facing the spaniards.
So as long as the novices can play at their level; against opponents of simmilar level, as we all did when the demo came out, that's all that's needed.
By getting single player "right", and a lot more interesting, new players will learn how to play well offline.
But I remember all the fun there was to be had when getting to drive vehicles for the first time in the demo, learning how everything worked; and we were all at the same point in the game's learning curve. I remember thinking how useless and ineffective the energy turrets were.......
....The way things are now, a new player playing online for the first time is like an aztec suddenly facing the spaniards.
So as long as the novices can play at their level; against opponents of simmilar level, as we all did when the demo came out, that's all that's needed.
DeeperShade said:
Good call.
I'm sticking by my assertion that your approach may make you feel better and may make a few readers go, "yeah! you tell him!", but is a less effective way of making your point. The rules about flaming and personal attacks aren't out the window for any reason.
Manifold started out a bit abrasively, but has remained calm and expressed that regret at making that statement. It oughta end there.
Symbolikal, I'm not sure if the "ego boost" comment was directed towards me as your sentence doesn't make any sense. I'm doing my job moderating, nothing more.
Carry on.
No comments about my level up system? (if you missed it, it is post #40)
Manifold is concentrating all the flame potential of the forum. I was expecting to find my account banned for my proposal but I am still here...
Manifold is concentrating all the flame potential of the forum. I was expecting to find my account banned for my proposal but I am still here...
kafros:
http://forums.beyondunreal.com/showthread.php?t=157119
It might've been covered already, but that's probably the best place to post it, there's a fair few ideas in there from many forumers.
http://forums.beyondunreal.com/showthread.php?t=157119
It might've been covered already, but that's probably the best place to post it, there's a fair few ideas in there from many forumers.
Deepershade, stfu.
Manifold, don't let the haters get you down. I completely agree that the way to fix the learning curve (or make it less unfriendly to newbies at least) is something the COMMUNITY, not Epic, needs to do. Something you said in your first post which is so true it hurts is that the huge, unending learning curve is the reason we all have been playing the game for so long. The challenge keeps us interested, and there is always room to improve. Well said.
Manifold, don't let the haters get you down. I completely agree that the way to fix the learning curve (or make it less unfriendly to newbies at least) is something the COMMUNITY, not Epic, needs to do. Something you said in your first post which is so true it hurts is that the huge, unending learning curve is the reason we all have been playing the game for so long. The challenge keeps us interested, and there is always room to improve. Well said.
