Unofficial technical weapon question forum.
- Thread starter Scythe
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well i took my BFSC earlier today, and had a great time doing it. The class was about 15 people and the instructor was as predicted extremely friendly and helpfull. They broke the class up into one hour sessions (aprox) and gave a small break in between where you could get up wonder about or handle & dry fire the instructors collection of pistols. ( a Glock in .40 , an Astra that looked like a Sig copy, a 1911 mk4 that had alot of work done on it,a Colt Pyton .357 Mag, and another smaller revolver that didn't have a flip out cylinder.) I'd say that the first hour or 2 covered the basic Mass state laws reguarding the various FID/Class licenses as well as other general stuff. Then we covered the different types of pistols (semi-auto vs revolver, Single action, double action ect ect.) Then we govered gun saftey, and more gun saftey. Then we broke for lunch and visited a local sub/pizza place. When we got back we covered basic pistol handling and covered the most frequent errors people make, and practiced loading dummy ammo into magazines, as well as covered basic cleaning & storage. After that we went to the indoor range (thank god it was about 100 outside) and we were shown how the range, and got broken down into 3-4 person groups and provided with eye & ear protection. Each group was then lead into the range and each station was provided with a pistol (Ruger .22/45 ) & magazine + 50 rounds of ammo. We were told to only fill each magazine with 5 rounds, so that we'd get alot of practice with reloading the weapon. It's alot harder than it looks. I have to admit i was little nervous at first, but about halfway through i got settled into a pattern, and was disapointed to find that i had moved through my 50 rounds so quickly. The class then went back and covered some Q&A, got our certificates, and covered a little of what to expect with applying for a license, and dismissed. I stuck around a little longer and talked with some of the staff and they were only too happy to show off their civilan and LEO training simulators. I think i'll stick with the ranges that don't shoot back at you for a while. 
anyway here's my first target thingy. Not as good as my shooting in INF but they didn't give me a logitec mousewheel so oh well.
anyway here's my first target thingy. Not as good as my shooting in INF but they didn't give me a logitec mousewheel so oh well.
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Update part 2.
Well since my last post i've joined the range that i took the class at (in store pricing was a fair bit cheaper than the website suggested) and i've been trying to shoot about once a week. Uptill now i've been pretty much sticking with the Ruger i'm familiar with, though i did get adventurous and decided to try out a 9mm. The staff reccomended i try a Sig 226 saying that the major differnce i would notice would be a different feeling trigger and a slightly larger recoil. Slightly wouldn't have been my choice of wording... something more like Moderate, or about 2-4 times the kick would've been a better place to start, cause when i fired it for the first time i i nearly lost control of it. Subsequent shots were better but over all i found that my performance wasn't as good as my .22 was. So for the time being i'll stick with practicing with the .22 till i get comfortable, and learn better trigger control. Are there any good exercises for pulling straight back -- without the need for a gun-- , i think my main problem area is that i don't pull back straight on the trigger and instinctually pull to the side while squeezing thus throwing my shots off into the 7-8 O'clock area. (this was heavily pronounced when i tried the 9mm)
Tomorrow i'll be starting my adventure into getting a license in this wonderful state. Wish me luck.
Well since my last post i've joined the range that i took the class at (in store pricing was a fair bit cheaper than the website suggested) and i've been trying to shoot about once a week. Uptill now i've been pretty much sticking with the Ruger i'm familiar with, though i did get adventurous and decided to try out a 9mm. The staff reccomended i try a Sig 226 saying that the major differnce i would notice would be a different feeling trigger and a slightly larger recoil. Slightly wouldn't have been my choice of wording... something more like Moderate, or about 2-4 times the kick would've been a better place to start, cause when i fired it for the first time i i nearly lost control of it. Subsequent shots were better but over all i found that my performance wasn't as good as my .22 was. So for the time being i'll stick with practicing with the .22 till i get comfortable, and learn better trigger control. Are there any good exercises for pulling straight back -- without the need for a gun-- , i think my main problem area is that i don't pull back straight on the trigger and instinctually pull to the side while squeezing thus throwing my shots off into the 7-8 O'clock area. (this was heavily pronounced when i tried the 9mm)
Tomorrow i'll be starting my adventure into getting a license in this wonderful state. Wish me luck.
Don't think pull, think "squeeze." How did they teach you to place your finger on the trigger? If you only have the tip of your finger on the trigger this may be the problem. Try placing the trigger in the first little notch in the bend of your finger. Slowly and evenly squeeze 'til the round goes off. And don't immediately drop the weapon to see where you hit.
geogob
Koohii o nomimasu ka?
Well i wasn't exactly smile'n at it either, but some more recent sessions are a bit better.
The first is my most recent practice with the .22 that i took the class with. (not too bad considering the guy 4 feet to my left was firing an M1 Garand.. probably the loudest dang thing i heard indoors yet and his spent casings were constantly flying across my view or landing on me (i had 1 that somehow managed to jump over the divider and get down the back of my shirt LOL). I have a newfound sympathy for those WW2 vets that were fire'n those things without the aid of hearing protection.
The second is todays practice with the 226. With the 9mm's extra kick, i find myself having a hard time finding the right balance between griping the gun too tightly, or limp wristing it and having problems with the weapon cycling the next round --- which happed alot toward the end when my hands started to ache. Oh well good practice fixing jams i guess.
The first is my most recent practice with the .22 that i took the class with. (not too bad considering the guy 4 feet to my left was firing an M1 Garand.. probably the loudest dang thing i heard indoors yet and his spent casings were constantly flying across my view or landing on me (i had 1 that somehow managed to jump over the divider and get down the back of my shirt LOL). I have a newfound sympathy for those WW2 vets that were fire'n those things without the aid of hearing protection.
The second is todays practice with the 226. With the 9mm's extra kick, i find myself having a hard time finding the right balance between griping the gun too tightly, or limp wristing it and having problems with the weapon cycling the next round --- which happed alot toward the end when my hands started to ache. Oh well good practice fixing jams i guess.
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"What's the best way to fire a .44 revolver?" Shot three clips at 50ft. and only hit the target once...down from bullseyes from my .22 and .38. I think I may be letting it hang loose in my hand a bit too much...not sure.
--Harrm
--Harrm
AK-URACY
I wonder why AK-47/AKM are not very accurate rifles... why do they have a reduced efective range compared to more modern 5.56mm rifles despite the higher killing range of the 7.62x39mm?
Is it related to rifling and barrel twist? Due to inadapted ironsights? Or inherent to the bullet itself???
I used to fire both AKM and SKS... both are 7.62x39 and except some lucky shots, I can truly say that I wasn't able to hit anything voluntarily past 250 meters at target shooting with AK, but SKS always did good job at 300+ meters.
I wonder why AK-47/AKM are not very accurate rifles... why do they have a reduced efective range compared to more modern 5.56mm rifles despite the higher killing range of the 7.62x39mm?
Is it related to rifling and barrel twist? Due to inadapted ironsights? Or inherent to the bullet itself???
I used to fire both AKM and SKS... both are 7.62x39 and except some lucky shots, I can truly say that I wasn't able to hit anything voluntarily past 250 meters at target shooting with AK, but SKS always did good job at 300+ meters.
Speaking of rifles, i recently just got a chance to fire my first ( the gent with the M1 let me give it a go. ) and i realized that i have a big problem. I'm right handed, but i'm left eye dominate, which means for rifles ,or at least the M1, where it's sights only come up about 1/8th of an inch from the stock, i'm practically firing blind. Seeing as people have been firing rifles for well over a 100 years i'm guessing that this isn't a new problem, so i wanted to know if it's something that you can forceably train yourself to overcome, or if there are other types of rifles that have sights sitting higher up so that i can use my left eye?
-- As for the AK's and such, i'm no expert by any means but i wonder if internal workings would have anything to do with the accuracy. Something beyond barrel length, twist, sights ect. Perhaps how smoothly or naturally the recoil felt? i dunno.
-- As for the AK's and such, i'm no expert by any means but i wonder if internal workings would have anything to do with the accuracy. Something beyond barrel length, twist, sights ect. Perhaps how smoothly or naturally the recoil felt? i dunno.
Probably an example of late soviet union Quality control concerning manufacturing tolerances.
SKS is semi, AK is full auto. especially the last one is built to take some pretty bad ammo (ask soldiers who did troop training in iraq) and still work
SKS is semi, AK is full auto. especially the last one is built to take some pretty bad ammo (ask soldiers who did troop training in iraq) and still work
Ak inaccuracy: My understanding was that the AK works with very loose tolerances, which explains their reliability but is awful for accuracy. Plus the AK round fires a bigger round (7.62mm vs. 5.56mm) from a shorter case (39mm vs 45mm) so the bullet is slower. Hence you have more bullet drop at a given range.
Shooting left-eye dominant: There's three ways round it.
1)Learn to shoot with the other eye. An eyepatch may well help here. This is what I've done, but in my case the dominance is fairly minor.
2) Switch hands - shoot left-handed. I can do this, but my aim sucks as I don't practice it much.
3) Get a modified rifle stock that allows you to look through the sights with your left eye - expensive.
There is a fourth, but I really wouldn't recommend it.
A friend of mine was really left-eye-dominant, such that he simply could not shoot without an eyepatch. Up until he nearly put out his left eye with a catapult. He now shoots remarkably well with his right eye.
Shooting left-eye dominant: There's three ways round it.
1)Learn to shoot with the other eye. An eyepatch may well help here. This is what I've done, but in my case the dominance is fairly minor.
2) Switch hands - shoot left-handed. I can do this, but my aim sucks as I don't practice it much.
3) Get a modified rifle stock that allows you to look through the sights with your left eye - expensive.
There is a fourth, but I really wouldn't recommend it.
A friend of mine was really left-eye-dominant, such that he simply could not shoot without an eyepatch. Up until he nearly put out his left eye with a catapult. He now shoots remarkably well with his right eye.
In addition to AKs being built with looser tolerances than ARs, the 7.62x39 is just not as inherently accurate as the 5.56mm (the .223 Remington it was developed from was developed as a varmint cartridge and shoots much flatter).
Also, most of the AKs made around the world are not as well made as they could be. Pick up an Arsenel, Valmet, or Vepr and you'll find the accuracy is much greater then a Romanian or Chinese AK.
Kalashnikov himself said he wasn't concerned about accuracy, but he wanted his rifles to be 100% reliable (especially in the hands of poorly trained peasant farmers)
If you're left eye dominant, then get in the habit of consciously closing your left eye before aiming ... eventually you'll train yourself to shoot right eyed.
Also, most of the AKs made around the world are not as well made as they could be. Pick up an Arsenel, Valmet, or Vepr and you'll find the accuracy is much greater then a Romanian or Chinese AK.
Kalashnikov himself said he wasn't concerned about accuracy, but he wanted his rifles to be 100% reliable (especially in the hands of poorly trained peasant farmers)
If you're left eye dominant, then get in the habit of consciously closing your left eye before aiming ... eventually you'll train yourself to shoot right eyed.
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Aren't AK's made by hand in Wazaristan (bin laden cronie province in pakistan) too, or is that just maitnance
An anecdote regarding the accuracy of the AK-47:
Soviet doctrine was such that the AK-47 is stated to have a maximum effective range of 300 meters. I attended an AK fam fire with SOTG a few months ago, and the instructor stated that the weapon will do more than that, they just don't bother with adequate training. He said any Marine there should be able to be effective out to 400 meters (still not the 550m of our M16's) if we'd just hold a bit high at that range. He figures we could teach anybody to do that given a week or two (i.e. Iraqi security forces). Luckily for us, a fair majority of the insurgent types are lucky to be effective beyond 30 meters (they are big fans of the spray, pray, drop, and run), much less 300.
Soviet doctrine was such that the AK-47 is stated to have a maximum effective range of 300 meters. I attended an AK fam fire with SOTG a few months ago, and the instructor stated that the weapon will do more than that, they just don't bother with adequate training. He said any Marine there should be able to be effective out to 400 meters (still not the 550m of our M16's) if we'd just hold a bit high at that range. He figures we could teach anybody to do that given a week or two (i.e. Iraqi security forces). Luckily for us, a fair majority of the insurgent types are lucky to be effective beyond 30 meters (they are big fans of the spray, pray, drop, and run), much less 300.
OK, I think this might have been discussed before, but I did a search, and couldn't find anything...
I read that a 5.56mm has to be traveling atleast 2700fps to fragment properly and cause maximum damage. I have also heard it said that supressors slow bullets down to subsonic, though I also remember hearing it said that they don't slow the bullet, they just slow the expansion of gases at the muzzle end, so rifle rounds still emit the supersonic crack when supressed. So my question is, do 5.56mm rounds slow down when used in a supressor, and if so, wouldn't that basically mean that the rounds would almost never be at a high enough velocity to fragment?
Also, I have a question about the 6.8mm SPC. Is there any data on their wound profiles or terminal ballistics yet? Do they fragment, or just yaw, and how soon do they yaw? etc...
On the AK47, I have heard that the 7.62x39 loses stability after 200-some meters, so even if you aim high, it still goes off target to the left or right unpredictably. That's what I heard anyway, it could be wrong.
Speaking of AK's, I may have asked this before, but does the 5.45x39 round have the same range problems of 7.62x39?
I read that a 5.56mm has to be traveling atleast 2700fps to fragment properly and cause maximum damage. I have also heard it said that supressors slow bullets down to subsonic, though I also remember hearing it said that they don't slow the bullet, they just slow the expansion of gases at the muzzle end, so rifle rounds still emit the supersonic crack when supressed. So my question is, do 5.56mm rounds slow down when used in a supressor, and if so, wouldn't that basically mean that the rounds would almost never be at a high enough velocity to fragment?
Also, I have a question about the 6.8mm SPC. Is there any data on their wound profiles or terminal ballistics yet? Do they fragment, or just yaw, and how soon do they yaw? etc...
On the AK47, I have heard that the 7.62x39 loses stability after 200-some meters, so even if you aim high, it still goes off target to the left or right unpredictably. That's what I heard anyway, it could be wrong.
Speaking of AK's, I may have asked this before, but does the 5.45x39 round have the same range problems of 7.62x39?
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it's my understanding (and i'm by no means an expert on the subject) that supressors do not reduce the velocity of the bullet being fired (although i vaguely recall hearing that the mp5sd intergal supressor might be an exception) A supressor (or silencer as the general public calls them) is really just a muffler that instead of being mounted on the tail pipe of your car gets put on the end of a firearm. How they work interally might differ depending on make/model/era. I also believe reading that it's imperative that you rezero your sights after installing a supressor which leads me to believe that "something" is happening to effect the velocity of the projectile.
As far as the m16/m4 special forces stuff. I was once told that a special subsonic 5.56 cartridge was used if the supersonic crack was undesireable.... but that the effectiveness of such ammo was lack luster... being "weaker" than that of traditonal subsonic ammo (9, 40, 45 ect) because the bullet is comparablely smaller to those rounds.
As far as the m16/m4 special forces stuff. I was once told that a special subsonic 5.56 cartridge was used if the supersonic crack was undesireable.... but that the effectiveness of such ammo was lack luster... being "weaker" than that of traditonal subsonic ammo (9, 40, 45 ect) because the bullet is comparablely smaller to those rounds.
Think of the arc of a projectile. If it didn't rise before it dropped, it would be firing either downwards or exactly straight i.e. a zero of 0m, and you'd end up firing into the ground all the time. A weapon's zero makes the barrel aim slightly upwards so that, as the bullets fall, they are at the same height as the barrel at a given range.
when a projectile is fired it drops at the same speed downwards as a projectile dropped instead of fired
does this statement apply to projectiles rotating due to the grooves in the barrell?
another one, can someone define stopping power perfectly? it's been proved the force backwards that a hit target takes (without allowing the bullet to pierce it through) is equal to the force the shooter feels with the gun's recoil. Some say stopping power doesn't exist, but killing power instead, by projectiles affecting on a bigger surface of the victim and tearing up more "meat"
does this statement apply to projectiles rotating due to the grooves in the barrell?
another one, can someone define stopping power perfectly? it's been proved the force backwards that a hit target takes (without allowing the bullet to pierce it through) is equal to the force the shooter feels with the gun's recoil. Some say stopping power doesn't exist, but killing power instead, by projectiles affecting on a bigger surface of the victim and tearing up more "meat"