The second ammendment

[Domino]

Firstly, here is the second ammendment:

A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed.

Now don't get me wrong, I'm all for the rights of people, but how can you claim that the 2nd ammendment has ANY bearing whatsoever in this time period, keep in mind that this was written in colonial days when you could, at any time, get shot for any reason.

Things were a lot more hostile in the old days, and their definition of "arms" was different as well... they were using muskets and revolvers... now in this age of weaponry, guns are far more powerfull and deadly. This ammendment CAN'T be taken literally here, that would be like trying to take the bible litterally, we need to revise it to reflect our time and the changes that have occured... in other words : this ammendant was made to accomodate a time long-ago, not today's time.

Now flame me all you like, but I believe that only Military and specially trained civilians should have guns of any kind... People wanting to own a gun should have to pass a rigorous safety test, and be able to show that he/she is comptetent to own and maintain a gun safely.

People these days claiming that they've bought guns to protect themselves are complete idiots... the chances of you needing a gun are so slim, and the chances of you killing or seriously wounding you or your family accidentally is far greater... People need to grow up, guns aren't toys, they are tools... and just like any other tool, they are no better or no worse than the person using it.

I believe that guns are not the problem, shooting someone with a gun is no different than beating them with a shovel to death... the gun is simply the tool, the gun has no intent to kill... it does what its "master" tells it to. You may be wondering why I posted this, well it's because someone at my school got ahold of his dad's 9mm pistol and blew a hole in his head accidentally.. the father had left the safety off and obviosley left it out for him to get it.

So that's my rant, I hope you know where I'm coming from... and if you read closely, these aren't radical ideas... all I ask is that people who don't know **** about guns not have access to one... A gun should be a privelage that must be earned, not a right.

 

[Keganator]

and domino let the cat out of the bag...

For the most part, I agree, as long as you still have the right. Untrained people with guns are a scary thing.

 

[RogueLeader]

I think people with criminal histories shouldn't be able to own guns. Therefore I don't think the the cops or military should have guns, the state being responsible for 170 million murders in the last 100 years. Since most people don't kill millions of people, or even one, let them have their guns. Gun control is only a means to disarm the working people who might rise up in their own defense against the state someday.

 

[Keganator]

defense against the state

But nowadays, if we try to do that, we're considered Terrorists and Traitors!

 

[Domino]

That is a disturbing fact... I guess you made the quote "When only the police have guns, it's called a police state"... something like that.

I agree, but our goverment isn't nearly oppressive enough to consititute a revolt any time soon.

 

[Sweep]

Sure the 2nd was written at a time with owning muskets were the norm, but what was the military carrying? Muskets. If anything the 2nd Amendment was meant to protect the very "assault weapons" that were banned recently because they weren't sporting, and I'm assuming you believe should still be banned... Number one, assault weapons are not used in much crime, number two they aren't functionally different than most guns, "evil" looking features convince completely ignorant people that the gun is somehow "evil" as well. Simply not the case...

The 2nd Amendment is very important still today. If not for fighting some oppressive government then simply for self protection. And don't give me some crap about that being ridiculous. It is not a danger to your family with proper care taken to keep it out of the hands of young children, and showing older children the proper way to handle them. Some idiot kid at your school shot himself? You blame it on the father for leaving the gun out, I blame it on the father for not showing his kid how to handle the gun, basics of handling any gun, etc, etc. The current minset is guns are evil, hide from you children, shelter your children from the mere sight of them, etc, etc. That is just plain freaking stupid. You make it mysterious, and kids will definitely be interested and seek them out... You teach a kid about the gun, let them shoot it, etc, you remove the mystery. Your kid doesn't want to go digging through your closet to get it anymore... Problem solved. And if he does go after it he'll know to always treat it as it were loaded and in this case would have unloaded it before something like that happened... My father taught me any time I wanted to see any of his guns, I just had to ask and I could see/handle them in his presence. I plan to practice the same thing with my current and future guns. I was given my own .22 for christmas when I was around 13 or 14, and continue to this day to own guns, including evil "assault weapons" btw...

You're right, guns aren't the problem, people are the problem. Any citizen who hasn't been convicted of a felony or mental illness has a right to own a firearm. That doesn't mean all should, but it is and should be up to the person, you can't legislate whatever it is you're trying to into people...

I agree, but our goverment isn't nearly oppressive enough to consititute a revolt any time soon.

So therefore we should just throw out anything in the constitution dealing with that now? The government isn't going to try to quarter troops in my house anytime soon either, but I'm not about to throw out the 3rd Amendment. No-one is trying to arrest and execute me without a trial, etc, etc. In fact, the government really isn't doing anything to me at the moment so lets just throw out all this darn obsolete Bill of Rights.

You'll never get the support to repeal, or change the 2nd Amendment in my lifetime, and I and at least a couple hundred thousand people would die trying to stop you anyway...

Lastly, the Constitution doesn't give the right to bear arms, it acknowledges it. You don't get to change it as you see fit...

 

[Domino]

Yes, Sweep, claiming to own a gun for self-protection is ridicolus... the chances of you or your family being targeted by criminals is so miniscule that it's like stocking your basement for the end of the world. I'm not denying that it does happen, but I'm pretty sure you don't live in the violence-torn ghetto where you need a gun to survive.

Don't give me that survivalist bull****, if living conditions seem so "dangerous" to you that you need a gun.. relocate for gods sake.

Lastly, the Constitution doesn't give the right to bear arms, it acknowledges it. You don't get to change it as you see fit...

The 2nd ammendment was written during a period in time where violence was commonplace, and people needed to protect themselves. Their definition of "arms" was completely different back then.

 

[RogueLeader]

Are you saying, then, that the Jews should have left and Germany had a right to continue its Nazi ideals?

 

[Domino]

Hitler was a power mad dictator who's prime target was the jews! Even if they had guns, they were outnumbered, outgunned, and outtrained in the methods of war.

But that has nothing to do with U.S. gun control, there is no dictator threatening us, and we aren't in such a hostile environment that owning a gun is necessary.

And the Jews would have had to move out the the country, I'm saying to Sweep that he should move to somwhere where it's less "violent"... I mean, if he cares so deeply for his family that he buys a gun to protect them, why does he insist on living in an area that "requires" a gun to "protect" himself.

doesn't make a whole lotta sense to me.

 

[RogueLeader]

And yet in multiple instances the Jews were able to fight back with guns and cause significant delays for Hitler. The Warsaw ghetto uprising defeated the Germans constantly for a month. That small Jewish population was more effective than Poland and France were in fighting the Nazis.

A real man doesn't just run from his home because some pocket Hitler wants to take over. It's everyone's duty to take an authoritarian prick out.

 

[Sweep]

No, actually you're living in a dream world if you really think you're safe, even in your home. It's an illusion. God forbid anything does ever happen, but I'm not leaving it up to chance that someone else is there to protect me or the cops are closer than the regular 15 mintues away... The police aren't everywhere, aren't ever going to be, and frankly I don't want them to be. If I never went anywhere that wasn't 100% safe I'd never leave my house... I choose to protect myself, if you don't want to that's fine. I don't care if you do or not, and I certainly don't think anyone should force you. But you do (and should) have the right to choose what's right for you. But I do care that you would then turn around and try to disarm me... You can shove that idea buddy, plain and simple.

BTW I live in a very nice area of town, yet my house has still been broken into before. You think I'm going to chance that A) that never happens again and B) no one will be home again when it does? Screw that.

You can be completely undefended and leave your life in strangers hands every second of every day, but I choose not to count on that. Maybe I die anyway, but that's just how it goes. I'll not be defenseless to make people like yourself and soccer moms worldwide feel better...

By the way, my late Grandmother defended herself about 10 years ago and killed a black guy who broke into her rural home and hit her over the head. He left her for awhile while he cleaned out her house, then returned to the room (her bedroom) where he left her and got his worthless ass promptly shot. She had that gun for 25+ years and raised five children in that home. Don't give me that more dangerous crap.

It is estimated that guns are used up to 2 million times for defense every year, that is way more than accidental deaths... Not to mention is that way more than illegally acquired guns are used in crime as well. The numbers simply don't add up to favor more gun control. I believe we should have instant background checks on all gun sales, and a license requirement for concealed carry. But beyond that is going too far...

 

[Sniper187]

People these days claiming that they've bought guns to protect themselves are complete idiots...

My house has been broken into twice in the last year. I now have a pump action 12 gauge hanging on my wall in my room. You may feel safe where you live, but I don't. Not always anyway.

And banning guns will not keep guns out of criminal hands. They're breaking the law already, why the hell would they care if they have to break another to own a firearm? All banning firearms from the law abiding public does is give the criminals less resistance.

 

[UDTSNAKE]

Originally posted by RogueLeader
And yet in multiple instances the Jews were able to fight back with guns and cause significant delays for Hitler. The Warsaw ghetto uprising defeated the Germans constantly for a month. That small Jewish population was more effective than Poland and France were in fighting the Nazis.

A real man doesn't just run from his home because some pocket Hitler wants to take over. It's everyone's duty to take an authoritarian prick out.

That is such a poor example its sad. the ghetto didnt have hundreds of thoudands of armed full time infantrymen march into them. Like you said the revolt was a month long thing and was squelched easily...in fact creating more disasturaous event for innocents than before.

 

[RogueLeader]

Ummm...yes they did...such a shameless revision of history so as to say that the Jews had larger numbers than the Germans disgusts me.

 

[The_Fur]

Rogue, you know this is not the case, the ghetto uprising wasn't some groups of jews holding out against overwhelming hordes of well trained and armed german troops, they held out for a month becase the germans didn't actually move in to crush the uprising untill after that month.

 

[RogueLeader]

The Germans did try that and lost. The Germans only won when they resorted to setting fire to the Ghetto and firing on it from afar. The Ghetto, thanks to the Germans themselves, was basically a fortress. They had the advantage of fortification. Like good rebels they used the enemy's infrastructure against it.

 

[Technophile]

I own guns.

All of them would qualify for "milita" use. In other words, military or military clone.

I don't own guns for the primary reason of self defense. I'm not that worried about it. On the other hand if someone breaks into my house I won't have to defend myself with a kitchen knife or baseball bat.

I don't hunt and have little desire to start.

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I like guns. I collect guns. I like to shoot. I try to get out at least once and sometimes three times a month. I don't compete in an organized shooting sport. I just like to shoot for personal enjoyment.

Explain to me why I shouldn't own guns.

 

[UDTSNAKE]

Originally posted by RogueLeader
The Germans did try that and lost. The Germans only won when they resorted to setting fire to the Ghetto and firing on it from afar. The Ghetto, thanks to the Germans themselves, was basically a fortress. They had the advantage of fortification. Like good rebels they used the enemy's infrastructure against it.

We all know from history that this argument is foolish....amn made fortifications are nothing more than testomony to mans stupidity.....We overcame the great atlantic wall...I know the gerry;s cna kill poorly armed jews.

Its almost like I dont want to go any further as your agument and pint is so ridiculous its embarrasing. Right the heavily armed german army was pinned down by under armed and over whelmed starving jews...the germans just didnt give it a second thought until it happend , then when they sent troops in the jews were crushed immediately.

 

[Sweep]

Regardless of who's right on that incident, who here if in that situation would want to be there completely unarmed, and who would want to be there armed taking a stand, even if poorly armed???

I'd be taking a stand and die fighting as opposed to being starved to death or gased later...

 

[Cap'n Beeb]

That, and much worse Sweep. Those Nazi's were some fucked up people.

But to answer your question, I'd rather go down from a headshot defending myself then made into a lamp or something.