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SpikeJones

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Huh?

I don't even know what that means!!

Spike
<a href="http://www.brainsonfire.com">corporate identity</a>
 
J

-Jes-

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*Sigh*
Seems like Steam is being just as big a b#tch towards PAYING costumers as StarForce was...

And even then, StarForce was only a MINOR annoyance to hackers. o_O

When will developers learn, that the only "good" protection is a cd-key? (it's hackable yes, but it's also proven to be FAR better than Steam and StarForce could ever accomplished together)
 
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sp_lit

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The real great thing about steam is it converts all your other Valve games so they all need meaning that it basically ****s the original HL up as well!
 

bid

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The problem with copy right protection is usually the publishers domain/decision not really valve's. Not too sure about that, but i think that's how it goes with most game developers.

Copyright protection that are the publishers decision usually come in the form of generic copy protection schemes, like starforce, safedisc, securerom, etc. However Valve does not use any generic copy protection schemes, they use their own custom steam $hit.
 

NeoNight

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bid said:
I'll never buy a game with Nazi-like copy protection schemes that require you to activate the game online before you can play the game.

I'll never give my money to a greedy, evil, corporation.

I'll wait for the hassle-free cracked version.

yeah! for shame! on valve for protecting their previously stolen work.

for shame! on them wanting to pay their bills and get a little something extra! [/sarcasm]
 

Sir_Brizz

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NeoNight said:
yeah! for shame! on valve for protecting their previously stolen work.

for shame! on them wanting to pay their bills and get a little something extra! [/sarcasm]
You mean their REPORTEDLY stolen work. There hasn't been any proof so far that it was actually stolen. (Oh, and likely never will be, and will be forgotten in 2 years)
 
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bid said:
Copyright protection that are the publishers decision usually come in the form of generic copy protection schemes, like starforce, safedisc, securerom, etc. However Valve does not use any generic copy protection schemes, they use their own custom steam $hit.

Actually if you bought it in the shop (rather than via Steam) you get to deal with a generic cd copy protection that Vivendi placed on it (as has previously been stated generic copy protection a la safedisk, securom is added bey the publisher, not the developer) as well has having to authenticate online.

Myself I bought the silver package via Steam a month or so ago (based in the UK so the $ conversion rate made it very enticing). Its been sat on my HD 100% preloaded since then. On the morning of the release it unlocked in a couple of minutes and I was able to play with no problems whatsoever.

Personally I think Steam is a good thing. Sure there are teething problems at first (too many people trying authenticate), like with any new technology or method, but it will get better.
Giving the software developers the ability to release their own software, rather than having it rushed out the door by publishers for the "holiday period" (notice how many games come out in the couple of months before Christmas compared to the rest of the year - thats called outdated marketing data and entrenched thinking by corporate suits), which results in buggy games, seems to me to be a good thing.

Also if you remove the media costs, the publisher markup, the store markup, distribution and the raw materials you should see the games a lot cheaper (didn't happen in this case as Vivendi had Valve by the nuts with their current contract so they couldn't release it much cheaper than the retail product, instead they offered DoD and the rest of their back catalogue).
Also wouldn't you rather see your hard earned money going to the people who wrote the damn thing rather the publishers who rush the games out the door, buy promising development teams and then fire them after a game has been delievered (but not fixed - i.e. Tribes2/Dynamix/Vivendi), stick outdated copy protection on cd's that just piss people off and generally are just act like a vampire stuck on the jugluar of the gaming industry?
I know I would.
Anyone whose had the opportunity to deal with members of the industry know that its the publishers that promise the earth but then don't deliver. The software developers are the ones who are putting their heart and soul into getting that game just right.

The publisher comes in and tells them it needs to be ready in x amount of months, they don't agree with z character and they have to remove y subject matter as some soccer mum is going to get offended. The majority of the time the people making these decisions favourite game is golf. Quake is something that happens in california and originality means releasing a copy every year just slightly different.

If something like Steam had been around earlier then who knows, we might still have Bullfrog/Origin/Dynamix/LookingGlass/DigitalAnvil kicking around rather than being just a trademark for a large behemoth with no history of inovation, or worse, non-existant.
I can see the independent software houses (of which are now few and far between) looking at Steam and seeing that, apart from the teething problems, mass distribution of a triple-A title over the internet was not only a success, it was a resounding success, and that maybe they don't have to sell their soul to the devil to get their game out to the masses.
 

Sir_Brizz

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PsychoMoggieBagpuss said:
Actually if you bought it in the shop (rather than via Steam) you get to deal with a generic cd copy protection that Vivendi placed on it (as has previously been stated generic copy protection a la safedisk, securom is added bey the publisher, not the developer) as well has having to authenticate online.

Myself I bought the silver package via Steam a month or so ago (based in the UK so the $ conversion rate made it very enticing). Its been sat on my HD 100% preloaded since then. On the morning of the release it unlocked in a couple of minutes and I was able to play with no problems whatsoever.

Personally I think Steam is a good thing. Sure there are teething problems at first (too many people trying authenticate), like with any new technology or method, but it will get better.
Giving the software developers the ability to release their own software, rather than having it rushed out the door by publishers for the "holiday period" (notice how many games come out in the couple of months before Christmas compared to the rest of the year - thats called outdated marketing data and entrenched thinking by corporate suits), which results in buggy games, seems to me to be a good thing.

Also if you remove the media costs, the publisher markup, the store markup, distribution and the raw materials you should see the games a lot cheaper (didn't happen in this case as Vivendi had Valve by the nuts with their current contract so they couldn't release it much cheaper than the retail product, instead they offered DoD and the rest of their back catalogue).
Also wouldn't you rather see your hard earned money going to the people who wrote the damn thing rather the publishers who rush the games out the door, buy promising development teams and then fire them after a game has been delievered (but not fixed - i.e. Tribes2/Dynamix/Vivendi), stick outdated copy protection on cd's that just piss people off and generally are just act like a vampire stuck on the jugluar of the gaming industry?
I know I would.
Anyone whose had the opportunity to deal with members of the industry know that its the publishers that promise the earth but then don't deliver. The software developers are the ones who are putting their heart and soul into getting that game just right.

The publisher comes in and tells them it needs to be ready in x amount of months, they don't agree with z character and they have to remove y subject matter as some soccer mum is going to get offended. The majority of the time the people making these decisions favourite game is golf. Quake is something that happens in california and originality means releasing a copy every year just slightly different.

If something like Steam had been around earlier then who knows, we might still have Bullfrog/Origin/Dynamix/LookingGlass/DigitalAnvil kicking around rather than being just a trademark for a large behemoth with no history of inovation, or worse, non-existant.
I can see the independent software houses (of which are now few and far between) looking at Steam and seeing that, apart from the teething problems, mass distribution of a triple-A title over the internet was not only a success, it was a resounding success, and that maybe they don't have to sell their soul to the devil to get their game out to the masses.
The only problem is that Digital Content Delivery has already been done by several companies alot better than it is done by Steam. Add to that the many areas in which Steam failed with this release, and the fact that digital content appears to be no cheaper than on a disc....if you were a developer would you adopt that model? I wouldn't! Putting money in the developers hands is a good thing...but look at it this way, if Valve IS getting 100% of the proceeds from Steam, then it shouldn't make one whits of difference if they give you a $10 discount on it. I really doubt, though, that Valve is garnishing all the rewards of Steam.

In my opinion, Steam (and HL2) was a lesson in what NOT to do. If you want to make half of your userbase "disinterested" by setting a firm release date that you miss, make half of the half that is left ticked because of a content delivery system that doesn't work well, and make 3/4 of that same half angry because they have to activate their game through your servers before they can play it, and still may have trouble playing it offline, after waiting anywhere between 5min-2hours to "activate", making alot of pople that preloaded "update" the game which took anywhere from 2hrs-10hrs for most people, and you get an ultimate failure of a game release.

When UT2004 came out, there was a rush to stores, people bought the game, walked out of the store, went home, installed on computer, and played the game.

With HL2, people rushed to the store, bought the game, went home, installed game, attempted to create a Steam account (may or may not have succeeded), attempted to "update" the game (may or may not have succeeded), activated the game (may or may not have succeeded), ran the game (may or may not have succeeded) and then got to play.

UT2004 - 1 hour from install to play
HL2 (for most people) - 2-10hours from install to play (if Steam was WORKING)

That's quite a big difference if you ask me (and not ver good incentive to adopt such a system, either).
 

Caravaggio

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It's like the oil industry. Even if the price of a barrel goes down, the suckers buying gas don't follow the market so the companies leave the price where it is.
 
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Sir_Brizz said:
The only problem is that Digital Content Delivery has already been done by several companies alot better than it is done by Steam.
Names please. And please don't come out with MS, thats a completely different kettle of fish (small updates compared to 4-6 gig (depending on package).
Add to that the many areas in which Steam failed with this release,
Examples please

and the fact that digital content appears to be no cheaper than on a disc....
Irrelevent - has already been stated that Valve could not realease it on Steam cheaper as that would be breaking their current contract with Vivendi.

if you were a developer would you adopt that model? I wouldn't!
Are you a developer?

if Valve IS getting 100% of the proceeds from Steam, then it shouldn't make one whits of difference if they give you a $10 discount on it. I really doubt, though, that Valve is garnishing all the rewards of Steam.
Yet again, already covered, many, many times in many different threads (kind of suprised you keep missing this).
Valve could not legally sell HL2 via Steam for cheaper than retail due to their current contract with Vivendi

If you want to make half of your userbase "disinterested" by setting a firm release date that you miss,
No one ever does that in the gaming industry do they?

make half of the half that is left ticked because of a content delivery system that doesn't work well and make 3/4 of that same half angry because they have to activate their game through your servers before they can play it, and still may have trouble playing it offline, after waiting anywhere between 5min-2hours to "activate", making alot of pople that preloaded "update" the game which took anywhere from 2hrs-10hrs for most people, and you get an ultimate failure of a game release.
I would like to see where you are getting these figures from, apart from thin air. As with anything on the internet, the ones who shot the loudest are the ones having issues - the ones you don't here from are the ones that are enjoying the game. If you look at the forum thread in OT about half-life you will see the people who had (as it all appears to be resolved now apart from a couple) trouble were in the minority.

When UT2004 came out, there was a rush to stores, people bought the game, walked out of the store, went home, installed on computer, and played the game.

With HL2, people rushed to the store, bought the game, went home, installed game, attempted to create a Steam account (may or may not have succeeded), attempted to "update" the game (may or may not have succeeded), activated the game (may or may not have succeeded), ran the game (may or may not have succeeded) and then got to play.

UT2004 - 1 hour from install to play
HL2 (for most people) - 2-10hours from install to play (if Steam was WORKING)
Again with the "most people" comment, yet with nothing to back it up. If we just take a sample from this forum, "most people" appeared to be playing it ok, it was only "some people" that had issues.

That's quite a big difference if you ask me (and not ver good incentive to adopt such a system, either).
If your figures were accurate, then maybe, but they weren't. No one has any accurate figures yet, I will be interested to see what figures Valve has to release.
 

SirYawnalot

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So, has anyone actually played it yet?
Personally I'm very disappointed, it's doing all the same things as the first game. And as with the first game, the only real plus point thus far (admittedly I've only got up to Water Hazard) has been the NPC characters, who are animated to the point of perfection.
 

Sir_Brizz

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PsychoMoggieBagpuss said:
Names please. And please don't come out with MS, thats a completely different kettle of fish (small updates compared to 4-6 gig (depending on package).
The entire mobile industry is built on digital content delivery. As much as you may hate to hear it, Microsoft is the big dog that has already done this alot better than Steam ever could. The MSDN network has already proved effective, you can actually download ISOs for every porgram Microoft sells. Add to the the success of Microsoft Live's DCDS and you have a formula that Steam couldn't really compete with, that is already way ahead of where Steam is. It seems to me companies would be going to MICROSOFT (not Valve) to figure out a DCDS for their company.
Examples please
I think it's pretty obvious from all of my posts where I feel Steam has failed. The fact that it doesn't use common P2P methods for delivery (which would have been useful, especailly during the installation phase), it relies on one single route to authenticate all users, and it's inability to withstand a massive amount of bandwidth are only a few of the reasons that HL2's release has shown Steam to be a failure. They could be fixed, but it won't be the same next time.
Irrelevent - has already been stated that Valve could not realease it on Steam cheaper as that would be breaking their current contract with Vivendi.
I'm quite aware of this, but this fact in and of itself makes Steam useless. It shows that even with DCDS the publisher can make it benefit them instead of the developer....so where is the incentive for other developers? Legally, under the contract, Vivendi owns the rights to anything Valve creates, including Steam.
Are you a developer?
Yes, as a matter of fact.
Yet again, already covered, many, many times in many different threads (kind of suprised you keep missing this).
Valve could not legally sell HL2 via Steam for cheaper than retail due to their current contract with Vivendi
See above.
No one ever does that in the gaming industry do they?
Most companies when they actually GIVE a release date are within 3 months.

Vavle blamed the release date slip on their "stolen" work. They then proceeded to give several "We think this day..." release dates until now the game is finally released. The game would have been revolutionary a year ago, now it is "par". It has some nice features that other game have done about the same with. It's the only game with all of them.
I would like to see where you are getting these figures from, apart from thin air. As with anything on the internet, the ones who shot the loudest are the ones having issues - the ones you don't here from are the ones that are enjoying the game. If you look at the forum thread in OT about half-life you will see the people who had (as it all appears to be resolved now apart from a couple) trouble were in the minority.
My personal experience along with the experiences of about 10-15 other people that have talked to me about this. All of them agreed that, whether or not everyone had problems, this was definitely the most sloppy release of a game so far.
Again with the "most people" comment, yet with nothing to back it up. If we just take a sample from this forum, "most people" appeared to be playing it ok, it was only "some people" that had issues.
From a consumer standpoint, regardless of whether it was "most" or "alot" of people, it is unacceptable. I've never heard of suh a controversial release in my life. Not even Windows XP garnered this many problems or even this much attention to the details. As a side note, Windows XP activation takes 2 minutes tops. ALOT of people reported HOURS for activation on HL2, if it workd at all.
If your figures were accurate, then maybe, but they weren't. No one has any accurate figures yet, I will be interested to see what figures Valve has to release.
I agree. It would be interesting to see the numbers. Likely, we never will and even if we do they will likely be "biased" towards "success" rather than failure. That is Valve's history... "Let's make up whatever **** we want to appease them..."

I'm not trying to say the GAME ITSELF is bad, I'm saying the RELEASE should have been prepared for better and should have gone off better.
 

Sir_Brizz

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Thanks.

I'd also like to close my remarks by saying no matter whether Steam improves and people adopt the system or what, HL2 will always beknown as the most problematic game release ever.

Unless Valve manages to outdo themselves, of course.
 
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Sir_Brizz said:
Thanks.

I'd also like to close my remarks by saying no matter whether Steam improves and people adopt the system or what, HL2 will always beknown as the most problematic game release ever.

Unless Valve manages to outdo themselves, of course.


I think that distinction still belongs to DNF :D
 

Sir_Brizz

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Hmmm...welll...that's if DNF ever gets released ;)

DNF is a worse story than HL2 in development process and release date slippage....no doubt about it...