Should INF scopes be easier to use?
- Thread starter Derelan
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has anyone ever done a run down? I don't know what they call it in the US army but it's basically a weapons qualification test where you run for 100 m to the 300m dist point on a firing range, take a firing position and shoot, get up when you see the target rise again and repeat for 200m, 100m. After one hundred meters you advance with the weapon hipped for 25 m and bring the weapon up and fire once the target pops up. Then you walk with the weapon at the shoulder for the next 25m and fire when the target comes up. and then walk to the 25m dist mark and fire ffrom the hip.
That's the test.
and I have NEVER done anything more awkward in my life then walk while lookin through a scoped rifle after running 400m. Sure it's not too bad to walk with it at the ready but having to hunch over and look through! your neck muscles get ****ed proper!!! I think looking down a scope while walking is stupid period. That's asking to get shot right there. Your peripheral vision is non existent and you leave your self open to get shot. Even between shots we're taught not to look through the scope.
Mpcl Ladd.
"Always observe (meaning look above the scope). If you wind up getting tunnel vision, that light at the other end will end up right in the one thing that's making you bunch of pussies men."
That's the test.
and I have NEVER done anything more awkward in my life then walk while lookin through a scoped rifle after running 400m. Sure it's not too bad to walk with it at the ready but having to hunch over and look through! your neck muscles get ****ed proper!!! I think looking down a scope while walking is stupid period. That's asking to get shot right there. Your peripheral vision is non existent and you leave your self open to get shot. Even between shots we're taught not to look through the scope.
Mpcl Ladd.
"Always observe (meaning look above the scope). If you wind up getting tunnel vision, that light at the other end will end up right in the one thing that's making you bunch of pussies men."
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Keganator said:Derelan, while you egg on this conversation, you've never posted your opinion. Are you waiting for something...perhaps a clear victor first?
You and I know very well I should never post my own opinion first
But anyway, I think scopes should be made slightly easier to use, meaning the bullets always go where crosshairs point (excluding ballistics of course, soley the scope misalignment issue). But right now, I noticed there really isn't a benifit in using the semi-auto feature of the PSG-1 over the Robar, since with both you have to wait a long time after each shot to steady your breathing again. Perhaps this could be quicker, or automatic, too?
Right now, most people only use scopes when they don't intend to move (defense) and they have a clear line of sight to weak points in attacker's routes. Otherwise, everyone uses iron sights.
Well, I think the designers are trying to balance the weapons in the game, and if this is going to be a sim, there should not be any weapons balance. Only unrealistic games have weapons balance. In a sim, the guns should be like in real life, and as you can see from the video I made, the scope doesn't wobble that much. Someone was saying well what if your really tired. Well in that video my arm was about to die after holding that rifle off and on for 20 minutes trying to get the camera and the scope to work together. So that is a pretty tired, crouched view from a scope. So thats about what it should be in game when your somewhat tired. And when your prone and bipoded, there should be no wobble on the scope if your not trying to move the rifle. Some of the rotation and wobble on the guns is pretty unrealistic, especially on the Minimi. I don't see how anyone could hit anything with that gun, even prone and bipoded. The sights meander all over the place. Then we have the .50 Robar and the PSG which spread bullets all over the place. This is what is losing people from this game. The unrealistic, balanced weapons that make no sense.
On another lesser thought, I think the P90 could have a little less kick. It kicks as much as the AK.
On another lesser thought, I think the P90 could have a little less kick. It kicks as much as the AK.
Logan6, you said the weapons balance in the game is losing players. Ever thought it might be the overall difficulty level of the game to new people in the first place?
No, this game is not that difficult. No more than True Combat or Counterstrike or Urban Terror. I would say most definitely its the really wobbly scopes (you would think the guy is drunk) and some of the really bad, unrealistic wobble on some of the weapons (i.e. the minimi). Every game has players except us. I was just looking at the servers and there was no one on. Hell, Ive played Falcon IV F16 Simulator which is ultra realistic. Now thats a hard simulator. I was just sighting in on a bird on one of the telephone wires outside my house at about 50 meters crouched. I was able to keep the sight on him for a minute with hardly any drift at 9x. I could have shot him dead at almost every second in that minute. Far different than what you see in the scopes in game. There is a minimal difference in real life on wobble when you swing your scope on to a target and when you slow your breath concentrating on your target. Minimal. And personally, my breath may slow a little, but I never hold it. Only when you are really gasping for air are you going to have a hard time controlling your breath and concentrating on the target.
People shouldn't be that scared of scoped snipers. With the effective weight limits, a real sniper can pretty much carry only his rifle and pistol, and maybe two grenades before he gets into the Heavy weight range. People with heavy weight loads move very slowly and are easy to pick off, so the smart sniper will rely on stealth and skill to move around the battlefield and not fire power. Any sniper who tries to attain both accuracy and firepower by carrying an extra subgun or rifle is going to be easily picked off early in the round.
People shouldn't be that scared of scoped snipers. With the effective weight limits, a real sniper can pretty much carry only his rifle and pistol, and maybe two grenades before he gets into the Heavy weight range. People with heavy weight loads move very slowly and are easy to pick off, so the smart sniper will rely on stealth and skill to move around the battlefield and not fire power. Any sniper who tries to attain both accuracy and firepower by carrying an extra subgun or rifle is going to be easily picked off early in the round.
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I'm sorry, I can’t agree with the "bullets always go where crosshairs point" there is such a thing as parallax and it would be an issue with scopes. Think about it, as the weapon "bobs" your eye will move with respect to the sight, it won't always be looking dead on. This will produce the same effect as trying to use a ruler without looking dead on the gradients (hence the term parallax.) OK parallax is probably the wrong term but you get the idea. As far as I can tell the sight misalignment is realistic, perhaps not to the extent that it is in game, but some would exist I would think (I’ve never used an ACOG so I'm not sure about this.) Now the question is, if your eye were moving that much w.r.t the sight would you still be able to see out of it? I honest don't know, I don't have a lot of experience with optics, esp. scopes. My suggestion would be to tone it down substantially, it will still make sniping very hard to do w/o controlled breathing, but it means you can use an ACOG in a non-static role up to say 100m.
geogob
Koohii o nomimasu ka?
Why don't you all do _the_ test... behing a photograph I did it more than once an it's quite amusing...
Take your favorite camcorder, zoom it to 4x or something like that and walk/jog/run around your house and/or yard while looking through it.
If your not convinced, then take a fuggin hunting rifle with a scope on it and do the same. Chances are that the test would be even more amusing.
Take your favorite camcorder, zoom it to 4x or something like that and walk/jog/run around your house and/or yard while looking through it.
If your not convinced, then take a fuggin hunting rifle with a scope on it and do the same. Chances are that the test would be even more amusing.
Well, walking, jogging, running your going to get all kinds of wobble. I wouldn't do that with anything over a 2x scope. However, I think the arguement is about standing, crouched, prone scope use. I don't care much what the scope shows in game when walking, jogging, running unless maybe its with the MP5's 1x red dot.
geogob
Koohii o nomimasu ka?
You see, that's exactly the problem... no one agrees on what the argument really is! I guess that until people start to be more specific and discribe their ideas better, as you did, this discussion is of the kind that will be forgetted in 2 weeks, then started over again in a month. it's a waste of time and bandwidth.
At least you state your ideas in a clear manner and bring out "real" proofs to back them up.
The problem with those dicussion about making the scope more easy (most of them I did not see here on the forum but rather on TDM servers) is that I have the feeling that some are looking for an alternate crosshair (sorry for the "c" word) to use in their run-n-gun game. No offense intended, but for those who what that, I might recommand some other game title you'll find more entertaining.
Scopes are hard to use in many situations (namely in a combat situation where situation awareness is critical)... and no matter how it's made in game (whichever game it is) I doupt that the difficulty to use scopes in real life could ever be replicated correctly.
You can see the target's activity while waiting for the next shot, unlike the robar which requires you to go out of scope to cycle the bolt.Derelan said:
I don't really see how making scopes easier in the 0-100m range is such an issue, the acog has a funny enough recticle as it is. I now am issued a C8LT(short c7/m16 with a 3.4x elcan sight) and invested my own cash in a laser to see how the likeness was to the scope system in Inf, aa, and truecombat for quake3. I burned up a good 240 rds of a heavy winchester .223 fmj in the fighting, walking forward and firing, crouching and moving back and forth, then I got daring and did a slow strafe in full auto. Gawd that was fun but I do think the inf system should be more bogged by reqoil at range then breathing and walking up close. Snipers are a different story and to me are just hampered by bulk and small maps. Note I was at the range in trail bc firing at wooden targets at 20m 35m and 50m if your curious about the distances I used.
geogob said:
Well, I think we should stick to the issue of what is going on with the scope when standing still, because even carefully walking in real life with a scope causes a lot of bounce which you constantly have to correct for. I can't really see walking etc with a sniper rifle. And yeah, I agree with your crosshair arguement, I think some people want the scope like it is in most other games, stock still the whole time, and thats not real either. I think toads mutator shows pretty much how the scope should be, barely drifting very slowly but keeping very close to the mark. The problem is you can't concentrate with his mutator which causes you to always miss the shot. You should be able to get good concentration for a few seconds ( say about 4 - 5 seconds ) for your shot. Thats when your muscles tighten on the rifle, your breath goes almost to nothing, and every bit of focus is on the crosshairs as you slowly squeeze the trigger waiting for the firing pin to slam home. Then you run like hell! Especially in real life if your poaching and you hear shouts and voices coming your way!
I think there are other problems with the weapons having too much rotating misalignment, especially the minimi which seems to misalign all over the place.
Being a heavier weapon, you wouldn't expect it to move much at all due to its inertia. I can keep my AK steadier than that prone and thats just balancing it on the drum magazine ( which does make for a handy monopod).
I'll see if I can get some video through the iron sights of it prone.
OK i hope this will sum up the points, of what is fine / wrong with scopes and the diffrent ideas.
A. Scope bob is over done you can argue yes, but the simple fact is: scopes should bob just as much as iron sighted guns X the zoom obviously. Lot at KW's post if you need further proof.
B. THE MAJOR ISSUE:
is the inability of inf to portray the real life situation.
mostly combat in real life takes place over greater distances, and at these greater distances scopes are very useful. For inf the problem seems to be that even at greater distances the scopes bob on assault rifles make it more preferable to use irons.
Also in real life you will never find someone with an m16 on a map the like flag staff, due to its size. Is submachine Bulk to high in proportion to assualt rifle bulk. It still fails me as to why the famas is only 14, when it weighs more then a Sig.
Maybe the whole bulk system need redisgn who knows?
Well anyways wheter it does or not that is not the issue.
IN real life most importnatly is that no ones walks around for 5 minutes aiming a scoped famas. You approach a location, your famas is against your shoulder but you are not aiming when you see an enemy you can then quickly bring it to your eye, the gun allready pointing in the general direction of the enemy, aim and fire. I think psycho morphs idea for inf should help to eliminate this problem find it here: http://forums.beyondunreal.com/showthread.php?t=134872
AS to the current state of things i think all we can do is make the scope bob realistic compartivly to iron sight bob, times the zoom, so a 2x zoom would give you double the bob. And so on.
-Skillz
A. Scope bob is over done you can argue yes, but the simple fact is: scopes should bob just as much as iron sighted guns X the zoom obviously. Lot at KW's post if you need further proof.
B. THE MAJOR ISSUE:
is the inability of inf to portray the real life situation.
mostly combat in real life takes place over greater distances, and at these greater distances scopes are very useful. For inf the problem seems to be that even at greater distances the scopes bob on assault rifles make it more preferable to use irons.
Also in real life you will never find someone with an m16 on a map the like flag staff, due to its size. Is submachine Bulk to high in proportion to assualt rifle bulk. It still fails me as to why the famas is only 14, when it weighs more then a Sig.
Maybe the whole bulk system need redisgn who knows?
Well anyways wheter it does or not that is not the issue.
IN real life most importnatly is that no ones walks around for 5 minutes aiming a scoped famas. You approach a location, your famas is against your shoulder but you are not aiming when you see an enemy you can then quickly bring it to your eye, the gun allready pointing in the general direction of the enemy, aim and fire. I think psycho morphs idea for inf should help to eliminate this problem find it here: http://forums.beyondunreal.com/showthread.php?t=134872
AS to the current state of things i think all we can do is make the scope bob realistic compartivly to iron sight bob, times the zoom, so a 2x zoom would give you double the bob. And so on.
-Skillz
hmm aren't there pills snipers take to minimize that? teh trade-off could be some sort of f***ed up side-effect
@crazyjohn, both could be an option.
@snipez, yes but when you are out on the battle field taking fire are you gonna pop open your box of pills?
I was thinking maybe even 2 aiming modes, not quite at psychomorphs idea which will take a while.
But this:
aiming mode a: regular as is now but bob is increased by 25%
aiming mode b: drains more stamina but bob is decreased by 25%
of current value, and elimnita the current mode.
@snipez, yes but when you are out on the battle field taking fire are you gonna pop open your box of pills?
I was thinking maybe even 2 aiming modes, not quite at psychomorphs idea which will take a while.
But this:
aiming mode a: regular as is now but bob is increased by 25%
aiming mode b: drains more stamina but bob is decreased by 25%
of current value, and elimnita the current mode.
One of the things that I think has been overlooked in this discussion is speed of acquisition. With iron sights acquisition is very fast. Where with a scope acquisition is a much more time consuming process. The reason for this is that the image of what you are shooting at does not stablize until the weapon does. In Inf scope use is all but instantaneous. I'd like to see the weapon missalignment as in Yurch's 2.86 mutator applied to scopes. That is to say that with an iron sight it is relativly easy to align the weapon with a target you already see, while with a scope you don't see the target until you are nearly pointed directly at it. This means that a shooter can predict with relative accuracy when his sites will be aligned with the target, where as with a scope this is much harder.
I agree with idea of scaling the mouse senitivity to the power of the scope. One of the things I don't like about the use of scopes is the sudden ability to fine tune your shot.
I also agree that head bob is way off. IRL if you are breathing hard and your hands are shaking it's the weapon that moves, not your head. And in general it's the front of the weapon that bounces around not the part firmly planted on your shoulder.
I also agree that the parallax is way over done. IRL you will hit where the crosshairs are or damn close to it.
I agree with idea of scaling the mouse senitivity to the power of the scope. One of the things I don't like about the use of scopes is the sudden ability to fine tune your shot.
I also agree that head bob is way off. IRL if you are breathing hard and your hands are shaking it's the weapon that moves, not your head. And in general it's the front of the weapon that bounces around not the part firmly planted on your shoulder.
I also agree that the parallax is way over done. IRL you will hit where the crosshairs are or damn close to it.