Psychomorph`s Idea for INF

[Psychomorph]

@Hurin:
I did the idea for realism

If you fall (for example falling from a plain), like freefall you could be able to aim very good and all that becasue you have no movement at your body.

I agree, that if you jump, you have too much movement in your body, but on the other hand it is physically possible to hold the rifle to the shoulder even if not very stable, but I don´t think you can aim if you jump, no that is not possible.


I think it would be the best way to solve this so:
If you jump while aiming a gun, you loose your aim and see the weapon from a shouldered position (on the right side). It looks like if you push the jump key, you see the rifle moving to the right and bobing a bit and you do a jump. If you land, you see a hard bob and the aim returns.

If you shoot while the jump (the fly), the freeaim should increase (cuz you do not hold the gun to the shouder that good and while the fly you move the gun more by moving your arms, thats why the freeaim is more) so it is much harder to place good shots, but as IRL you are still able to use your gun.

What about that?

 

[gal-z]

Aiming/shouldering the rifle should hardly reduce run speed, but running while shouldering/aiming should still make the weapon bob, so it's quite impossible to aim while walking and impossible to aim while running (sights bob too much). Yet, the bobbing of the shouldered weapon should be less than how it is now while running forward.

 

[Hurin]

@PsychoMorph
I think their should be more variables entered into the fall calculations:

a. if one falls on stairs the fall although it may be a short one counts more towards hurting ones health then one onto flat ground. (bad footing on stairs).
b. FAlling from a height onto a slanted surface will automaticcally make you slide down, even if you can walk up and stand on it. One would slide till they reach the bottom or their momentum is reduced deacresing damage from the fall.
c. FAlling in general (even if you arent jumping), with a fall of more then 2.5 meters the weapon should got out of aim mode into ready fire mode/normal mode depending on how big the fall is. If you dont belive me try it jump 2.5 meters with a gun in fire mode, tell me how hard it is to keep the gun that way.


One more thing to, I would really like to see a climb key. YOU climb on to crates, you jump grab the ledge and pull your self up so on.
I know this migth be extreme and much level redesign might be needed. But this would be a big step towards full scale realism.

-SkillZ

 

[geogob]

One more thing to, I would really like to see a climb key. YOU climb on to crates, you jump grab the ledge and pull your self up so on.
I know this migth be extreme and much level redesign might be needed. But this would be a big step towards full scale realism.

ra286 had this feature. The trouble was that none of the maps are created with this in mind, hence a lot of problems occure. A change like this one, having such a major impact on map flow, cannot be done so easily. Probably the best thing would be to add it during an eventual port to another engine. Map will need to be ported to, so they could be modified in concequence.

The idea is good, but we had too many problems with it in ra286 IMO. I can't say how many times rounds ended with a suicide or with a reset because someone was stuck outside of the map.

 

[mat69]

I think it would be possible with a mutator.
Adding a new actor which allows climbing at a radius of ... in an ini, where you can add several actors for different maps.

 

[keihaswarrior]

ra286 had this feature. The trouble was that none of the maps are created with this in mind, hence a lot of problems occure. A change like this one, having such a major impact on map flow, cannot be done so easily. Probably the best thing would be to add it during an eventual port to another engine. Map will need to be ported to, so they could be modified in concequence.

The idea is good, but we had too many problems with it in ra286 IMO. I can't say how many times rounds ended with a suicide or with a reset because someone was stuck outside of the map.

That isn't completely true. You could implement climbing into INF without redoing any of the maps, but the climbing feature would have to be quite limited.

Basically, reduce the height of the current jump and implement a climb action that has a maximum height of the currect jump height in-game.

This way, you would not be able to get any higher than normal, but it wouldn't cost as much stamina to climb a few boxes because you could climb them instead of jumping.

 

[Hurin]

Over all i agree with geogobs idea (for once), if and when inf is ported to a new engine changes like this may be put into effect.
One could add many other things to this too later on like allowing one to squeeze against the wall to allow walking thin edges more realistically. and over all much of this type of movement should be redesigned in the future. like proning on surfaces to small to hold ones body and climbing up a steep wall instead of walking up it.

Another idea i was thingking is a free lean, the idea is as follows:

Purpose:
To make more realistic fire fights, increase the use of cover fire and allow the player more options.
How To:
Take away the lean left and right keys and make one key, while holding this key u may lean in anydirection you move the mouse or the wsad controls (to be decided) so effectvly supposing ur using the controls u could lean up down left or right or any combination of the following.
This would allow one to look over a crate for example, from a crouched position without standing up and exposing oneself fully. This would make sense, since if you are crocuhing behind a rock (in real life) you would stand up and shoot u would slowly bring your gun over the rock exposing ur self minimally. Somewhere along those lines.

Morethings you can do: lying prone on top of a building you could lean down allowing you to peek in side a window directly below, etc.

I dont know how much support this idea will have put i have had it for a while and decided to suggest it.

-Skillz

 

[Derelan]

Take away the lean left and right keys and make one key, while holding this key u may lean in anydirection you move the mouse or the wsad controls (to be decided) so effectvly supposing ur using the controls u could lean up down left or right or any combination of the following.
This would allow one to look over a crate for example, from a crouched position without standing up and exposing oneself fully. This would make sense, since if you are crocuhing behind a rock (in real life) you would stand up and shoot u would slowly bring your gun over the rock exposing ur self minimally. Somewhere along those lines.

-Skillz

I think RavenShield had this, and it worked quite well, but I don't see how its possible for INF without using pre-coded animations.

 

[Beppo]

This 'idea' of a free lean was already discussed here a while back (I guess around the time RavenShield presented it). Any INF on UT'99 will not get this feature due to the engine simply being unable to do this. But ie UT2k3/4 allows direct bone manipulation and that is what RS is using for the free leaning. So there is no need for any kind of lean animation at all. Can all be controlled via codes and so it can be controlled by the player input as well of course.

 

[jayhova]

There is one major difference between hip mode as it is implemented now and a true shouldered mode. In a true shouldered mode your POV moves not the weapon. The thing here is that in the current implementation if you are in a tight location you can't switch between them.

I would like to propose a sticky shouldered mode. In this mode the weapon is always shouldered unless: you have just changed weapons, you are reloading, you have sprinted. In these cases the weapon would move to the hipped mode which should prehaps have a little less weapon on the screen than it does now.

 

[Hurin]

@Beppo,
well then supposing that INF is ported to UT2004, will you include free lean, will you consider it?
BY the way what is the chance of this happening, of INF being ported for UT2004, is there anything the community can do to increase this chance?

 

[Hurin]

@PsychoMorph
id like you to look at the scopes discussion going on because it is closly related to your idea.

 

[Psychomorph]

Suggestion time

The suggestion I would prerfer is, to have the low ready/aimed as standart, but you could be able to toggle with a special key (probably mousewheel) the aiming modes (aimed/shouldered and hipped). With the right mouse key you would use the current aiming mode.
The current aiming mode would be displayed in the hud. Maybe the aimed mode would have green typo (color), the shouldered orange (as less accurate) and the hipped red typo (as even more inaccurate).
This toggle would be on the "mousewheel up", "mousewheel down" stuff, cuz than you could toggle better between the 3 modes. If you aim a rifle, you could use the "mousewheel down" to unaim the rifle, but hold it to the shoulder (shouldered) and again wheel mouse down, to hip it (with all the 1st person animations). Using wheel up would shoulder the gun and than aim it again.
Using the wheel in low ready would just define the weapon aim mode you will have if you press the right mose key.

According to this suggestion, I did some pics again.

Low Ready Positions

1 (shoulder/aim adjusted)
3rd person:
The gun is held in low ready, but not vertically to the ground, but 45 degrees down, like it is done in real life.
If you adjust the shouldered mode, or the aiming mode with the mousewheel, the low ready position of this both modes would look the same (as pic 1).

1st person:
Since the gun is pointed 45 degrees down, you particulary can see it in low ready.

2 (shoulder/aim adjusted)
3rd person:
If you move close to a wall, the low ready weapon moves closer to the body and ends up in a vertically held weapon.
This works only if they are obstacles in front of you and you are close enough to them.

1st person:
From your view, you could see at most the buttstock, since the gun is held vertically.

3 (hip adjusted)
3rd person:
If the weapon is adjusted to the hipped mode, than also the low ready position changes.
Since the hipped mode doesn´t require the weapon to shoulder, the weapon is just held in the hands (sideways), while in low ready.
If you adjust another weapon position with the mousewheel, you would see the soldier is changing his low ready weapon position.

1st person:
Since the weapon is just held in the hands, you do not see any parts of it from your view.
Also in the 1st view you would see the low ready postitions changing (between shouldered/aimed and hipped).

 

[Lasersailor184]

Here's an idea, it might be a little difficult for you to understand. Aim, then aim downwards. BINGO! PROBLEM SOLVED!

 

[(SDS)benmcl]

I find it interesting that you have made no comment about this discussion then suddenly pop in with a stupid comment like that. The fact is there are better ways to do this and that is what is being discussed. The fact the Beppo has been seriously discussing this topic may have clued you in that SS is atleast interested in the ideas here.

If you don't have something usefull to add here then STU.

 

[Lasersailor184]

Yes, I'll STU. Man I've been told.

But think about it. You are asking SS to do something that really has no affect on battle. It would require coding, a lot of animation work and much much more. Guess what they could be doing with this time instead of a feature that is not needed.

 

[(SDS)benmcl]

Of course it is going to take a lot of work. The next version will of course.

How do you thing things are developed? Ideas are brought up, discussed and debated. The SS team takes a look at what they would like to add. They modify it and work it. Thats all part of the creative process of this mod.

Do you honestly believe that if Beppo thought his ideas were bad he would be wasting his time here? He joined the discussion to bring his view points and to see if others have better ideas. They probably won't appear exactly like it has be discribed but I bet you'll see at minimum and invluence portins of the next version.

Members of the community invluenced the development of 2.9 and will do the same in next version.

Also why do you think SS put a call out for people to work on the next version. Maybe they know that there will be much more work involved?

Too many people who have attempted to bring something constructive to the community has been stomped on. It really needs to stop.

 

[jayhova]

Psycho,

I'm afraid I have to disagree with you here. While the positions you discuss here are realistic they are too relaxed for the environment that is INF. In a situation where contact has been made or is eminent it is much more useful to have the rifle in a ready to fire position. I do think that if the player is in an unsupported position e.g. standing or leaning while crouched, his rifle should drift down after he has been still for a few seconds. It takes effort to keep a rifle pointed at the same place while in an unsupported position. In fact I think it would be cool if Yurch's new mutator could reflect muscle fatigue if you fail to let the weapon rest.

Edit: I really don't like the idea of using the mouse wheel for anything as I use it to switch weapons. Also no one has made any comments on my idea of a sticky mode (maybe because mine is the last entry on that page). To reiterate: ..the weapon is always shouldered unless: you change weapons, you are reloading, you sprinted. In these cases the weapon would move to the hip.

Yes, IMHO we need a shouldered mode and I think it should look just like your first picture. The current hip mode is not shouldered for the reasons I have previously mentioned. A true shouldered mode would allow the sniper weapons to be fired properly without the use of the scope. Many people think this would unbalance the game but not if the sniper weapons had resonable damages and were used with the Yurchian Rav3/BS4 combo.

 

[Psychomorph]

I explain how my experience in INF is.

First, I always use Ironsights, never hip. For that, I always try to 'calculate' the situation, where I decide if I have to have the gun up as it is done in RL.

For me, hipped is kinda 'low ready' allready, only that it doesn´t look so. So I run (stamina save), or navigate in close rooms by using hipped. Using the hipped, I always kinda wish the animation would just lower the barrel (low ready) instead of hip the weapon, cuz I (personally) never shoot using the hipped position.

And of course in comabt sometimes you have to have the gun ready to fire. But then I diecide as in RL myself in those situation if the gun must be ready (aimed).

If I think: 'Oh oh, theres a window', ' Oh, theres an open door', 'This place is not save'. I always shoulder the gun and lower the sight, to observe, but have the gun always ready. I even run in short stages while aiming, even if it takes stamina.
But if I decide the situation is clear enough (at least at the time), I relax and hip (kinda low ready), save stamina if run and do not crash my gun.
Overall, it takes very less time to bring up the gun from low ready, as it is in actual INF (from hipped).
Notice also, that ohters (your enemies) would have the same 'problem'.


So for me, it would make not that much differences at all, but the low ready would look and act realistic.
For those who say 'but I want shoot hipped, or shouldered', therefor is the 'weapon aiming mode toggle' (mousewheel or something else).

If ppl would say I want to have gun shouldered and ready and aim fast (as done in AA), that would still work fast enough (is just another key, or mousewheel), second AA needs this (fast aim/shoulder toggle), but not really INF, cuz using the INF freeaim, you can lower the gun and aim fast by moving it onto the target.


From my point of view I really do not see any issues with low ready at all (and use it kinda allready), since INF got the most flexible aiming system, which allows you to handle the gun faster.
If AA:O would have the low ready/aim system as I explained, it would ruin the whole stuff, but forget that silly AA:O .


P.S. what new yurchs mutator? I´m not well informed at the time.

 

[Nukeproof]

Didn't somebody mention clipping problems with the current weapon models for a 'low ready' position?