Freedom of speech NTKB. I see nothing wrong with asking for you to name the features, nothing for you to blow up over.
*NTKB falls on his knees and PLEADS to yurch!
- Thread starter NTKB
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Yurch, I understand what you are saying. I guess this was more of a way of unloading than actually believing you would do anything. But the desired features from RA286 that would be nice are the critical hit feature, where if you are shot in the torso you have a chance of bleeding to death and blacking out slowly. Really nice touch. The other feature that would be nice would be the new nade effects and sounds. Nades sound right now and they make nice explosions. Climbing ia a bit controversial but I beleive with some tweaking it could work also to the benefit of realism.
Other than that, the reduced recoil, the zoom, and the reduced "sway" to the gun when you are turning is all detremental to realism and should be axed. What I state here seems to be the opinion of the majority.
Other than that, the reduced recoil, the zoom, and the reduced "sway" to the gun when you are turning is all detremental to realism and should be axed. What I state here seems to be the opinion of the majority.
I dont totally hate it. I like some things, i hate others. This whole jumping aspect is a bit much. But i could get used to that. The only problem is that every time im online now i hear, "dont do that its map exploiting" and so on. The map boundries have been changed and there is alot of question as what is right and waht is wrong. Sure you could say, what ever you couldnt do before dont do now. I ask, why? If you can get on the roofs then cool. It adds a sort of surpirse to the maps weve played OVER AND OVER again. New routes to take. It gives INF variety. Thats what it really needs at this point.
The robar manually reloading it. I love that. ITs the coolest thing ever. I also like the blood loss thing. However, this zoom thing with irons needs to go in my opinion. Im not even sure if that is an option anymore (i may be mistaken.) All that said i think there needs some changes to be made but its not ALL bad.
Mappie
The robar manually reloading it. I love that. ITs the coolest thing ever. I also like the blood loss thing. However, this zoom thing with irons needs to go in my opinion. Im not even sure if that is an option anymore (i may be mistaken.) All that said i think there needs some changes to be made but its not ALL bad.
Mappie
I like the bleeding (still needs tweaking though), the new nade effects (still some bugs there), and the new small jump that takes very little stam. The rest of the features, especially the reduced recoil can go IMO.
![Cleeus[JgKdo]](/data/avatars/s/30/30543.jpg?1424422840){kind=avatar}
{GD}NTKB said:As for you Kungpao dont attack Ghost in return. Ghost has most of the time more than anyone kept a level head in all matters and he has done alot for the community as well. You cant measure the worth of someone based on achievements like that. Thats like saying a Godly map like Siberia, if that was the only map the mapper ever made is worth less to someone who did 2 or 3 crappy maps, since the second person contributed more. Lets not start a flame war here. I agree the issue should be discussed but lets keep the flames off this thread please. Thanks!
I hadn't meant to flame. What I had meant was that no matter what, Duke is NOT some useless oaf that abuses everything in the community. He mapped Black Water which has been one of INF's favorite maps of all time. Some people don't like it but it's been the source for many great DTaS games and has graced many servers at one point or another.
I apologize fully for attacking you, Ghost, and recognize that fact that you're probably one of the last to jump onto the flame wagon.
IMHO the climbing, the zoom with irons, and lowered recoil are the bad parts of RA286, but they are so bad that they out weigh any good changes of RA286. If atleast the climbing and zoom were taken out I would be happy playing it, but as it is now I can not stand playing RA286
Wow, I've finally found an issue compelling enough to convince me to revive this account...
I mostly agree with Ghost and NT here - I love the new grenade effects and I think many of the other changes were good efforts. However, I think that many of the efforts created many unanticipated detrimental effects. I think the high-jumping and climbing simulation implemented in the latest Ra 286 versions is a noble effort that has produced significant gameplay issues already and could pose greater problems for the RA community in the future. The effect of the change is very realistic and well coded, even if it is somewhat restricted in scope and still leaves the player incapable of accessing areas that could and would be explored in real life. However, the heated debate mentioned by Mappie and NT over whether using this new feature to travel to previously unused areas in some maps reveals a serious flaw in the entire concept of climbing in RA. And the worst is yet to come: if, in the future, maps made specifically for Infiltration are, in a sense, "incompatible" with RA (and this issue has already reared its head, so we can only expect that it will continue to be a problem), the split between the "vanilla" and RA communities will be worsened, to the detriment of both groups.
Unfortunately, the problem with the zoom is somewhat more philosophical and so less quantitative, AND it involves shortcomings of the UT graphics engine and even the state of computer technology which are far outside the bounds of even as comprehensive a mod as Infiltration. While its stated purpose was originally to replicate a state of concentration that may be experienced by a shooter, the zoom, I think, is also partly an attempt to compensate for the relatively low resolution of any computer monitor and so allow the player to both see game events more clearly and use iron sights more effectively. The zoom performs both of these tasks admirably. However, the zoom still cannot compensate for a computer monitor's shortcomings and seems to exacerbate the problems of the game's bizarre and frustrating grid input system (though I still have not ascertained whether others experience the problem to the extent that I do). Also, the ability to remained zoomed while running betrays the fact that the feature no longer simulates the effect of concentrating while looking down the sites of a gun towards a target. Zooming iron sights seems to close the gap between using irons and using a scope, something that directly contradicts the original intentions of RA. The zooming system's most important benefit, the greatly increased usefulness of iron sights is due more to the larger size of the sights than that of the target, so the effect could surely be reproduced simply by zooming only the iron sights. However, I am not at all convinced that the zoom is unrealistic or a bad idea and I am especially eager to hear the thoughts of others on this matter.
I must confess, I have been decidedly against the bleeding/unconsciousness idea from the second I first found out that it was to be included in RA 286. "What's the point of leaving someone in the round if they are going to die almost immediately? Won't that just provide us with desperate, supposedly mortally wounded soldiers who are still nearly 100% combat effective? Is this realistic at all?" I thought. I am still wondering the same questions because, unfortunately for my ability to argue my case here, I have never been shot, I have never seen anyone shot, and I have never seen a comprehensive study about what happens to people when they get shot. I recognize the flawed nature of Infiltration's damage system just as I realize the necessarily flawed nature of any simulated body damage system. I won't argue against the existence or realism of "critical hits," but I think that if a simulated soldier will imminently be rendered incapacitated (but then resuscitated a minute later), why not just render him incapacitated immediately, especially since we either cannot or do not at this time simulate the other mental or physical consequences of a mortal wound. Don't misunderstand me here: I am not arguing against altering Infiltration's damage system, but I think that introducing random bleeding and unconsciousness is at best an insufficient attempt at simulating battle wounds and at worst damaging to the gameplay of the mod.
As to the reduced recoil and weapon swing, I think that it betrays the fundamental intent of RA. Although I cannot speak to the realism of the individual changes, I think that they are detrimental to the realism of the overall combat style of RA by (relatively speaking) encouraging firing while moving and, to a more limited extent, discouraging controlled bust firing.
I mostly agree with Ghost and NT here - I love the new grenade effects and I think many of the other changes were good efforts. However, I think that many of the efforts created many unanticipated detrimental effects. I think the high-jumping and climbing simulation implemented in the latest Ra 286 versions is a noble effort that has produced significant gameplay issues already and could pose greater problems for the RA community in the future. The effect of the change is very realistic and well coded, even if it is somewhat restricted in scope and still leaves the player incapable of accessing areas that could and would be explored in real life. However, the heated debate mentioned by Mappie and NT over whether using this new feature to travel to previously unused areas in some maps reveals a serious flaw in the entire concept of climbing in RA. And the worst is yet to come: if, in the future, maps made specifically for Infiltration are, in a sense, "incompatible" with RA (and this issue has already reared its head, so we can only expect that it will continue to be a problem), the split between the "vanilla" and RA communities will be worsened, to the detriment of both groups.
Unfortunately, the problem with the zoom is somewhat more philosophical and so less quantitative, AND it involves shortcomings of the UT graphics engine and even the state of computer technology which are far outside the bounds of even as comprehensive a mod as Infiltration. While its stated purpose was originally to replicate a state of concentration that may be experienced by a shooter, the zoom, I think, is also partly an attempt to compensate for the relatively low resolution of any computer monitor and so allow the player to both see game events more clearly and use iron sights more effectively. The zoom performs both of these tasks admirably. However, the zoom still cannot compensate for a computer monitor's shortcomings and seems to exacerbate the problems of the game's bizarre and frustrating grid input system (though I still have not ascertained whether others experience the problem to the extent that I do). Also, the ability to remained zoomed while running betrays the fact that the feature no longer simulates the effect of concentrating while looking down the sites of a gun towards a target. Zooming iron sights seems to close the gap between using irons and using a scope, something that directly contradicts the original intentions of RA. The zooming system's most important benefit, the greatly increased usefulness of iron sights is due more to the larger size of the sights than that of the target, so the effect could surely be reproduced simply by zooming only the iron sights. However, I am not at all convinced that the zoom is unrealistic or a bad idea and I am especially eager to hear the thoughts of others on this matter.
I must confess, I have been decidedly against the bleeding/unconsciousness idea from the second I first found out that it was to be included in RA 286. "What's the point of leaving someone in the round if they are going to die almost immediately? Won't that just provide us with desperate, supposedly mortally wounded soldiers who are still nearly 100% combat effective? Is this realistic at all?" I thought. I am still wondering the same questions because, unfortunately for my ability to argue my case here, I have never been shot, I have never seen anyone shot, and I have never seen a comprehensive study about what happens to people when they get shot. I recognize the flawed nature of Infiltration's damage system just as I realize the necessarily flawed nature of any simulated body damage system. I won't argue against the existence or realism of "critical hits," but I think that if a simulated soldier will imminently be rendered incapacitated (but then resuscitated a minute later), why not just render him incapacitated immediately, especially since we either cannot or do not at this time simulate the other mental or physical consequences of a mortal wound. Don't misunderstand me here: I am not arguing against altering Infiltration's damage system, but I think that introducing random bleeding and unconsciousness is at best an insufficient attempt at simulating battle wounds and at worst damaging to the gameplay of the mod.
As to the reduced recoil and weapon swing, I think that it betrays the fundamental intent of RA. Although I cannot speak to the realism of the individual changes, I think that they are detrimental to the realism of the overall combat style of RA by (relatively speaking) encouraging firing while moving and, to a more limited extent, discouraging controlled bust firing.
So this makes the ppl against RA286 zoom/reduced recoil/ reduced sway features 30-2 (the 2 being Duke and Toad)?
I would think the authors of RA286 would take the communitys angst against this into consideration and recode accordingly so a divide does not occur in the allready divided community. Thanks.
I would think the authors of RA286 would take the communitys angst against this into consideration and recode accordingly so a divide does not occur in the allready divided community. Thanks.
Well, I wouldn't say that the argument is so one-sided, because I have played with many who actually like the zoom and some of the other features as well. Also, I think we should be wary of ostracizing Duke and Toad, because it is dedicated players like them that we need to carry RA forward. I applaud their bravery in stepping into Yurch's shoes, and I would like to thank them sincerely for putting so much work into making what should be recognized as very ambitious changes to RAv2. I have seen that Duke is receptive to community input, and I hope that he will continue that trend in the future.
Hannibal1 said:
Hey, so lets call together all the UnrealScript Coders and let everyone do his own RAv2 so that we have about 10 new version. Keg could do his own, I could do my own and some others could change it too. Fun, is it?
I think people have forgot about Toad's earlier post.
The way I understand the situtation is that they are making it for themselves. If we like we can use it. If not be damned. The PR serve is only being used for testing. For those who don't like there are other servers.
Now I have to agree there are things I like and don't like. I have pointed them out and on 1 issue they made the change Aegis and I made. Thank you. It would be nice if the issues were debated more by the corders of this version but if thats the way they want so be it. I can make a choice of what server to play on and will.
I will still get my ass kicked anyways.
The way I understand the situtation is that they are making it for themselves. If we like we can use it. If not be damned. The PR serve is only being used for testing. For those who don't like there are other servers.
Now I have to agree there are things I like and don't like. I have pointed them out and on 1 issue they made the change Aegis and I made. Thank you. It would be nice if the issues were debated more by the corders of this version but if thats the way they want so be it. I can make a choice of what server to play on and will.
I will still get my ass kicked anyways.
Cleeus[JgKdo] said:Hey, so lets call together all the UnrealScript Coders and let everyone do his own RAv2 so that we have about 10 new version. Keg could do his own, I could do my own and some others could change it too. Fun, is it?
My point is that Duke and Toad are providing a critical service to the RA community - without people working on the project, RA will never move forward. Any changes they made would have made them easy targets for all sorts of verbal abuse, but they went ahead and worked on the code anyway. I think they deserve a lot of credit for trying in the face of inevitable hostility.
EDIT: I think I should point out that Cleeus brings up an important point that may be missed by some. Introducing more distinct versions of RA would be disastrous for the community. RA has been developed mostly for online play, but the RA online community is simply not large enough to support more than a handful of versions of the mod for a number of reasons. If even more versions of RA surface, getting a respectable number of players on to any one server could become a greater challenge than it already is. Having less dedicated players per version could also prevent further development of RA. Lastly, the mess of competing versions is already becoming confusing and would definitely discourage new players from joining our community. Without a constant influx of fresh players, any modification inevitably becomes stagnant and fades away. Som while having the choice of which version of RA to play may seem like a great thing to some, it will eventually prove detrimental to our community.
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Also, they got permission first from Yurch himself (or I'm told) so unless Yurch let's everyone have a go they are the only other people that can work on RA.
Part of the problem is communication. No discussion from their end. I don't have a problem with that if they plan to develop it for themselves and if others like it fine. - I believe this is the approach they are taking.
If the plan is to provide something for the entire community then their approach is not working. Like they said its not meant to replace RA.
What I do wish for is that there was an ini file to turn on or off their options depending how the admins like it. Like the old recoil and stuff then turn theirs off but keep the bleeding and manual Robar reload. I don't think it is techincally possible now but I can still wish.
If the plan is to provide something for the entire community then their approach is not working. Like they said its not meant to replace RA.
What I do wish for is that there was an ini file to turn on or off their options depending how the admins like it. Like the old recoil and stuff then turn theirs off but keep the bleeding and manual Robar reload. I don't think it is techincally possible now but I can still wish.
Hannibal1 said:
RAv1 when it was released had one sole purpose... To enhance realism more fully. Reducing recoil, adding a zoom and reducing the sway detracts from that goal. They are moving the realism movement backwards. I understand that tehy are making it for themselves but they are testing it on a popular server which gives the community access to it and they are calling it RA286, a realaim which it is not. They should at least rename it to something else, maybe Vanilla286? That would be more appropiate. Either way this debate seems pointless since 2.90 is coming... I just pray they dont try and divide the community with a RA290...