Movement

[Crotale]

Although I thoroughly enjoyed thousands of hours of playing UT2, I suppose I am biased against the movement system because I am not good at these games. My hand-to-eye coordination is lousy, and I felt the movement styles of UT and UT3 were better suited for me. The movement in UT2 was most difficult to learn to a reasonable degree of player capability for folks like me or for those who didn't have the time to get good at it but still wanted to have fun fragging online. While I could hold my own against the higher level bots, I had a strained experience online in most matches against seasoned opponents.

And then you had the guys who created maps, and those servers running them, where you had to use these more advanced skills to get to many pickups, which automatically left many players with a clear disadvantage. It is one thing to traverse a choke point to get to a health or weapons pickup, but making these items inaccessible to players who have not perfected the ability to use all the available controls is just not a game that will be very successful. You don't have to noobify the game, but making the controls system fairly simply to learn doesn't need to equate to easy to master.

I hope what I am saying makes sense.

 

[meowcat]

@ Wormbo: I absolutely agree about aligning dodging to the slope you are on (help greatly on terrain!) and the inheritance of Pawn's Base's speed when jumping. I implemented the horizontal velocity inheritance in my YARM mod and it made jumping off of movers and vehicles much more fun and felt much more natural (a good example was jumping off of the train's in UnShame's remake of _N_'s VCTF-TrainCrossing).

 

[-AEnubis-]

If the acceleration was a set amount, I'd see no reason to align the dodge to your view. This would supplement the "options" people feel like they were losing with the lack of a double jump. You could then turn your dodge up for a short high dodge, or down for a short quick low dodge. It might feel a bit weird, but that's be something I would be interested in testing.

As far as wall kicks go, I see no reason they couldn't be infinite. In 2k3 they inherited your vertical momentum, so you couldn't climb with it, and in 2k4 it reset your momentum, but really didn't give you a lot of vertical thrust. with a proper delay between kicks (just the same way it is between dodges) you wouldn't be able to climb even in the tightest of corners.

 

[AMmayhem]

Although I thoroughly enjoyed thousands of hours of playing UT2, I suppose I am biased against the movement system because I am not good at these games. My hand-to-eye coordination is lousy, and I felt the movement styles of UT and UT3 were better suited for me. The movement in UT2 was most difficult to learn to a reasonable degree of player capability for folks like me or for those who didn't have the time to get good at it but still wanted to have fun fragging online. While I could hold my own against the higher level bots, I had a strained experience online in most matches against seasoned opponents.

And then you had the guys who created maps, and those servers running them, where you had to use these more advanced skills to get to many pickups, which automatically left many players with a clear disadvantage. It is one thing to traverse a choke point to get to a health or weapons pickup, but making these items inaccessible to players who have not perfected the ability to use all the available controls is just not a game that will be very successful. You don't have to noobify the game, but making the controls system fairly simply to learn doesn't need to equate to easy to master.

I hope what I am saying makes sense.

No worries, it makes sense to me. I remember finding myself in a similar boat. I just wanted to run-and-gun like in UT1, but UT2k4 I felt like I had to learn this whole dance routine which I thought was somewhat discouraging.

 

[Wail of Suicide]

I really prefer when walldodges reset vertical momentum, it makes for much more predictable movement. I found UT3 walldodges often felt ineffectual because retaining momentum essentially means they're only useful if you can do them on your way up or at the apex of your arc. A lot of the time on WAR-Suspense I'd find myself trying to walldodge and wondering if my keypresses even registered because it was so non-obvious whether it worked or not.

Resetting velocity has some side-effects but I vastly prefer knowing Press X to do Y consistently than wondering if it did anything because my timing was off.

 

[Hunter]

Update on the UE forums looks promising:

https://forums.unrealengine.com/showthread.php?6021-Early-Movement-Prototype

 

[-AEnubis-]

Sweet.

Brizz, buddy, don't feed the trolls in official threads. Especially when that official thread shows that we are obviously winning the debates in the other threads

 

[KaL976]

Although I thoroughly enjoyed thousands of hours of playing UT2, I suppose I am biased against the movement system because I am not good at these games. My hand-to-eye coordination is lousy, and I felt the movement styles of UT and UT3 were better suited for me. The movement in UT2 was most difficult to learn to a reasonable degree of player capability for folks like me or for those who didn't have the time to get good at it but still wanted to have fun fragging online. While I could hold my own against the higher level bots, I had a strained experience online in most matches against seasoned opponents.

And then you had the guys who created maps, and those servers running them, where you had to use these more advanced skills to get to many pickups, which automatically left many players with a clear disadvantage. It is one thing to traverse a choke point to get to a health or weapons pickup, but making these items inaccessible to players who have not perfected the ability to use all the available controls is just not a game that will be very successful. You don't have to noobify the game, but making the controls system fairly simply to learn doesn't need to equate to easy to master.

I hope what I am saying makes sense.

Sheesh... you'll be telling me next you only had one way out of the 100 spawn on Roughinery next

 

[Sir_Brizz]

Sweet.

Brizz, buddy, don't feed the trolls in official threads. Especially when that official thread shows that we are obviously winning the debates in the other threads

But it's so hard....

 

[Crotale]

Sheesh... you'll be telling me next you only had one way out of the 100 spawn on Roughinery next

Evidently, a-holes are filtering over from the official forums now, huh?

I didn't play Roughinery enough to remember where any pickup was placed. The point is that not everyone is as adept at playing these games but still want to enjoy them. UT1 didn't have these moves. Do you think that game was noobified?

 

[TWD]

I didn't play Roughinery enough to remember where any pickup was placed. The point is that not everyone is as adept at playing these games but still want to enjoy them. UT1 didn't have these moves. Do you think that game was noobified?

Don't ever play Goliath Caves.

UT99 was actually worse in that area because the moves were unintentional. Rockets sent people flying, and you could use it to boost teammates. You could punt your tl across the map. The infinite nature of the tl allowed you to pull off all manner of cheese. When the game was popular these tricks weren't common, but if you play CTF with the die hards today you won't stand a chance without them.

 

[Crotale]

Yeah, but how many retail maps were made to where you HAD to use these trick moves to get to the pickups? You're gonna get die hards who want the extreme play in any game and will find a way to accomplish that, but I am referring specifically to map design and how the default movement style pushes those designs.

Since this is supposedly going to be online only, I would like to see the default movement style be a bit more grounded than it appeared to be in UT2. At least with all the previous iterations of the game, I could crank up the bot settings and play offline to some enjoyment if I was not having fun online.

 

[Wormbo]

Multi-doding, huh? Looks like it always takes two generations for my code to make its way into the core game... (WhoPushedMe, anyone?)

The combination with that "if you think you made the jump, you did make the jump" feature (is that "mantling" you're talking about?) definitely is interesting.

 

[Cadaver]

I don't know if you guys are reading the forums but more than 60% of the people clearly haven't played Unreal Tournament
I thought this was the right time to get off from UT99, seems like I was wrong again.

For the movement: really, as someone said in the forums (someone with a brain): why fix it if it works? Yeah sure change something add this add that but don't make a new gameplay, UT is cool because of its simplicity

Oh and another thing, I didn't follow the stream, they said anything interesting?

PS: damn I still remember the pass of this account lol

 

[Raynor.Z]

Stream is available on YouTube for people who missed it.

[M]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qyR6EIBN2Ac[/M]

 

[Wail of Suicide]

I think the point of trying to add new things is (1) because maybe we'll get some legitimately good ideas out of it, (2) getting people to try and productively suggest new movement mechanics is better than listening to people endlessly snipe at how someone is obviously not pro enough to appreciate this or that.

I kind of like the idea of the ledging maneuver, but I think it needs a keypress to activate, otherwise I think there will be some issues with walldodging off of chest-high ledges.

I do wonder if it will be accepted by the BunnyHop / Trials guys. Those are the ones I consider movement experts, and it might be a little bit imprecise seeming to them.

 

[Sir_Brizz]

I don't know if you guys are reading the forums but more than 60% of the people clearly haven't played Unreal Tournament
I thought this was the right time to get off from UT99, seems like I was wrong again.

For the movement: really, as someone said in the forums (someone with a brain): why fix it if it works? Yeah sure change something add this add that but don't make a new gameplay, UT is cool because of its simplicity

Oh and another thing, I didn't follow the stream, they said anything interesting?

PS: damn I still remember the pass of this account lol

Yes, the opinions over there are ..... uhhh...

 

[-AEnubis-]

The trial guys will always have UT2kx...

aaaaaaand they can keep it.

 

[KaL976]

Evidently, a-holes are filtering over from the official forums now, huh?

I didn't play Roughinery enough to remember where any pickup was placed. The point is that not everyone is as adept at playing these games but still want to enjoy them. UT1 didn't have these moves. Do you think that game was noobified?

Actually, 'a-hole' yourself. I'm not registered there at all and never have been.
<-- Check my join date here, 'newbie'

I picked Rough, [possibly the most popular 1v1 map] as an example of how making a small effort to learn the simplest, [shield jump] of the so-called 'advanced' movement totally changed your chances of escaping the 100 pickup tunnel & especially in 1v1 didn't telegraph your escape route to the other player.
The first time I played a higher skilled player I asked him why he wasn't contesting the 100 & then killing me everytime I came back out & he said because I know you can't get out any other way & I'm good enough to sacrifice it to keep the game interesting. He then showed me how to shield jump & use the 3 or 4? other exits & opening up a whole new level of gameplay. Personally I found that extra layer of movement the icing on the cake and set about learning all the tricks you can do, massively increasing my interest in the game.
I understand your point about custom maps that require 'advanced' moves to be competitive can be daunting/frustrating for new players, [Epic made no mention of any movement beyond double jump & playing offline teaches you nothing] but to drag everyone down to the casual players level does the game a disservice, is boring for people who aren't & you will still get annihilated by people who play more than you do. No one wins.

 

[N1ghtmare]

While making the game have the ability to competitive is important, it is by no means more important than making it accessible for everyone else, from new player to experienced player-but-not-pro. Most players are not going to touch the competitive scene, and many will rarely go online. This isn't really about "noobifying" the game as it is making it fun with a complexity level that most people can recognize and practice without feeling pressured to master it just to last more than ten seconds online.

Basically the competitive scene needs to be considered in development, but it should not be the main focus.