Lack of really good custom content is sad

[unbecoming]

Having said that, and being a mapper myself. Being motivated to endure the time and patience goes hand and hand with passion for the game. I loved playing UT2004 everyday. I can't bring myself to play UT3 for more than 5 minutes. Even when I try to be diplomatic about it. IT's just not fun, which in turn provides VERY little motivation to create custom content. Then there is the fact few out of a few will play your work....

Not alot of incentive there. I like people to play my stuff, and enjoy it. If that's not happening, then no point in it for me.

This about sums it for me.Why spend months on creating stuff for consolers to play?

On my server list I just do not see good pinging (below 60) populated servers with any custom content.It wouldn't matter because the server and map are only half of it,you kinda need someone to play or it's almost worthless for me.
I put my level on the back burner because I see no players and only 6 playable servers with below 80 ping.I was even going to host one,but why?So it can sit there empty.I'll pass.I may resume work on it if the player count ever grow.

Just to show there are other opinions about the state of user created content

http://utforums.epicgames.com/showthread.php?t=604791

Uhh but most of what is coming out now is not keeper material.Many of those are people experimenting and learning UED and probably shouldn't be releasing anything until they have had some experience and/or have played UT for sometime.I bet many of them will likely never make another level.Just playing with legos isn't really making a good map.Even if it's gorgeous that doesn't make it a fun level.

As Dragon said "Quantity DOES NOT equal quality" and if you personally played all of those levels and could be objective for once I think you'd agree a minor percentage are good to great and most are just meh.Matter of opinion I guess.

 

[BigDragon]

I agree with you mostly about only the determined ones getting anything good done. But for the comment on Crysis having more people making stuff for it, thats likely due to the fact that the game is a lot easier to make levels for. Basically all you have to deal with are giant open terrain levels with a few buildings here and there while UT3 has terrains plus extremely detailed architecture.

Yes, I would completely agree with that as it pertains to most people.

But I'm not most people and that's not what I'm building. I tend to be one of those determined people, and I'm determined to win. Doing something run-of-the-mill doesn't get you noticed. My problem right now is making sure I execute my plans fully before the contest deadline. Combine Hawii, Aliens (the movie), and Cloverfield (the movie) to get an idea of where I'm going. Unfortunately, it's unlikely I'll be able to enter anything other than the Single Player map contest. I'd really like to enter the Multi Player contests, but it's not going to happen.

 

[Caravaggio]

Obviously I can only speak for myself, but I think a lot of people are walking a fine line between hobbyist and professional aspirations. In ut2004 player models were very easy to work with and thus guys like me made a lot of simple (mediocre I guess) models to throw around, and maybe learned enough to make one or two great models. But since I'm not really gunning for a gaming job, I'm not sure how much I want to push it. My relationship with UT3 has gone as such:

UT3: It's thanksgiving! Play Me!
Me: Ok!
UT3: *Joy*
Me: Ok, fun, let's mod. Hay guys, what's the 411?
Forumites: Hair bugs, head bugs, axis bugs, mesh bugs, voice bugs, no portraits, and you can only use 3/4ths of the texture map.
Me: Well, I'm sure that'll be worked out, as long as I can start working on my custom...
Forumites: Actually you can't make factions either.
Me: Ok, this is just stupid...
The Witcher: Look! I have swords and tits!
Me: Awesome!
UT3: :,,,(
Realworld: You have to find a job... ...and real tits!
Me: Aw man... ...fine.
UT3: Patch!
Me: Oh fine, we'll try this again.

So here I am shoveling through the forums again, looking to get a better handle on it this time.
But of course by then I've let my models stagnate. I want to stress that I can't blame anyone but me for not working on them further, but the lack of polish in this thing hasn't exactly been motivating for the most casual of us.

 

[Hazel.H]

where is Hazel by the way

Nice to feel wanted Still here, but very busy with the final term at university. I'd love to put more time into mapping but getting my degree is more important right now. So far I've managed to fit in a bit of development for UCMP on the side.

 

[WHIPperSNAPper]

Low players counts = lower enthusiasm = few mod and few custom maps.

I've released five UT99 CTF maps and I have a UT3 map (a redo of CTF-Dagnys-PussyWhIpPeD) all cut out and textured, and I'm about 50% done with the lighting, but I haven't worked on it for over a month-and-a-half now.

Why? Few people are playing CTF online and I don't feel much motivation to invest time and effort mapping for a game that appears to be dead. (Even Warfare is ailing.) At first I was real enthusiastic and wanted to get some maps out early so that they'd have a chance of finding an audience and getting established, but after I realized how low the game's online player counts were, I lost interest.

I can't say I'm real thrilled about the way that files and folders are organized in the game; it was so easy to work them in UT99 and UT 2004, but that issue isn't a game killer. I think it was also easier to embed custom content in a map via the MyLevel file (embed it and keep working on the map, changing the version name as you improve it, etc.).

I know this is getting off topic a bit, but since this thread has attracted the interest of War Tourist and since low player counts are one reason for my not wanting to map...

War Tourist, I know that you guys are fully aware that people disliked the user interface and server browser and that you're sick of hearing about it--but what I don't know is whether you guys have any intention of overhauling it so that it's as fast and smooth and functional as the UT99 and UT 2004 user interfaces and server browsers. Are there any plans to completely overhaul it with a UT3 patch? If you guys release a UT4, will the UI and Server Browser be up to UT99/UT 2004 standards? I'm pretty active in the UT99 community and I can tell you that the UI and server browser hurt sales of and enthusiasm for the game more than you guys might think.

I really like the UT3 game play and I wonder what would happen if you guys tried again, patching it up to fix the UI and server browser, adding a new game type or two and a couple maps that all UT3 owners could download, then re-releasing UT3 for PC with marketing at a strategic time and calling it: Unreal Tournament 3: Online Multiplayer Extreme Edition and touting it and marketing it as having the world's premier online multiplayer FPS game play. (I suggest bringing back normal Onslaught (as an addition to Warfare), Invasion and perhaps an Invasion-RPG mod, and UT99 Domination.)

I think I'd be willing to map for UT3 if I felt that it had a future on the PC. The game play is fundamentally solid--you guys got the hard part--the chemistry--right. It's just a matter of fixing everything else around it, re-releasing it at a strategic time, and marketing it properly. (If you guys fix the UI and server browser, maybe the box could mention that it has a very fast, unparalleled menu system so that players can "get into the game quickly" or some such.)

 

[ShredPrince]

You admitted yourself that you would have pre-emptively deleted this kind of civil discussion mere hours after it had been posted if it appeared on the utforums. You already made that clear with your suggestion of this being a sadness/whine thread on the previous page. Here we have both sides of the story.

QFT

 

[BigDragon]

After reading WHIPperSNAPper's post, I remembered something. Back when the PS3 mod tools were first released and the information about not supporting custom sounds came out I recall posting a message in the UT3 modding mailing list requesting help and asking, kindly (back then I was still excited), for Epic to lend a hand since I have custom music and they're the only ones that have the Atrac3 encoder. I got no response. No "yes", no "no", and nothing in between...just complete and utter silence even when the mailing list was slow and people were badgering me for PS3 support. I then posted the same request on the Epic forums and a few people joined in, but that thread didn't last very long. It just randomly disappeared, and remember this is back when the tools first came out and when I was still being friendly and not making any stinging statements. It was 2 or 3 weeks later before I finally got tired of waiting and hoping for things to improve and got frustrated enough with the game's support, patching, and community relations that I was marked as "some random troll" like lots of other people here. I have not been harping on this episode at all, but it sure says a lot about how things have been.

I still get emails today from people requesting either an unaltered PS3 version with the custom music/sound, requesting to know what servers the map is on, or asking for me to tweak/fix little things. I don't think WarTourist in particular and Epic in general understands what kind of effect it has when I respond to those messages stating I've been banned and refuse to support what I've put out or create new content until an apology is issued. At one point the messages were coming in daily but now it's about every 5 days. Forums are not the only medium people use to discuss games and other products.

Are there any plans to completely overhaul it with a UT3 patch? If you guys release a UT4, will the UI and Server Browser be up to UT99/UT 2004 standards?

Hopefully you get a response to this, but it's probably not going to be a positive answer. Why? Because the PS3 people will want these UI enhancements brought over to the PS3 version. They're already upset that the PS3 hasn't been patched yet. If UI enhancements are made it'll have to be to all 3 (PC, Xbox360, PS3) platforms or else there will be a firestorm.

 

[SoSilencer]

I've been away for a while so I haven't had a chance to mod, but honestly I wonder if it's even worthwhile right now. For example I just patched to 1.2 and went looking for a game. A few minutes ago my browser showed ZERO warfare players and about 30 people playing DM. This leaves me with one of two questions...

1: Why should I work on something for a game that nobody plays?
2: If these player counts are wrong, why is the server browser still broken?

Does it even matter which is right?

I have an AWESOME mod planned for UT3 and I REALLY want to make it but if nobody is there to play it what's the point? Based on 3 teams the mod really needs to be played with 18+ players to have that "HOLY CRAP THIS IS AWESOME" factor (and it would have that, you would all be amazed with the gameplay). It's one of those things where the more players you have the more fun it is. Unfortunately it would need at least 9 to be decently fun and honestly this community doesn't seem to have even that. It's a lot of work to do given the almost-nil chance of finding a server and 8 or more players to give it a try. Of course if anyone has a server and 7 or more friends let me know... I really do want to make this and it really does have awesome gameplay...

 

[evilmrfrank]

The reason cooking sound to PS3 doesn't work isn't Epics fault. It is sonys. Sony made a stupid mistake by only allowing their own sound format to be used.

 

[BigDragon]

The reason cooking sound to PS3 doesn't work isn't Epics fault. It is sonys. Sony made a stupid mistake by only allowing their own sound format to be used.

Yes. However, I never blamed Epic for this limitation even when I made the mailing list message and the forum post. I know that it's been Sony's proprietary format all along. They can't just give away an Atrac3 encoder same as they just can't give away a DVD decoder. What I got mad at primarily was the fact that when I posted to the mailing list I got absolutely no response what-so-ever even though the list was quiet for a few days. Then when I posted on the forums it didn't take long for the thread to vanish into thin air. I totally understand the reason for the limitation. I just would have appreciated something other than no response and a deletion.

 

[»Silenoz«]

Like stated before there are some nice maps out there at this point. I've been busy with attempting to create a normal DM map....well i was untill vista and the editor got in a fight and the editor lost. So i need to find away to get the editor to work again before i can continue. But content will be coming out more often. every1 is either still learning all the in's and outs,building a heavanly map or has a editor that crashes and cant build #$%&.

 

[WHIPperSNAPper]

Hopefully you get a response to this, but it's probably not going to be a positive answer. Why? Because the PS3 people will want these UI enhancements brought over to the PS3 version. They're already upset that the PS3 hasn't been patched yet. If UI enhancements are made it'll have to be to all 3 (PC, Xbox360, PS3) platforms or else there will be a firestorm.

Hmmm...maybe. The PS3 and XBox players don't need to be able to set keybinds for taunts and comm messages ("Enemy flag carrier is here", "Take their flag!", etc.) and I don't see why they'd want a UWindows GUI type of interface that would make use of a mouse, and graphics should be optimized out-of-the-box for the consoles anyway.

I'm wondering when the PS3 players will begin to complain about the lack of custom content...and that might be what saves UT...er UT4...for the PC. Of course I'm hoping that Epic will try to re-release UT3 with a UI and server browser that's up to UT99/2004 standards. However, the real issue is probably whether they'll learn from their mistakes and do it for UT4.

 

[Spank$hot_BT]

I do not agree. ANYONE can make content in the forms of maps, models, textures, and so on. Only the DETERMINED make good content. It's hard to attract talent when there's very little incentive and so many negatives behind a product.

I said CASUAL mappers, what you described is YOU. A determined mapper with aspirations of getting into the industry (if i remember your older posts correctly) willing to set aside the necessary time over a course of months to produce high quality, fully custom map absolutely does not equal a CASUAL mapper. Someone who simply doesn't have the time or inclination to be what you define as 'determined' yet still wants to create a quality map.

My post then went on to comment on the problems a casual mapper faces with the level of work involved and how one solution would be to provide much more differently themed stock content. This would also help maps stop looking too samey.

Only the DETERMINED make good content.

If, like i was, your refering to full custom assets for a map, then i disagree with this statement. I think this is more accurate>>
'Only the determined make custom content
& only the determined and TALENTED make GOOD custom content.' Just like a talented casual mapper can make a good map with little or no custom content.

 

[gregori]

Guys, there is plenty of custom content for UT3. Alot more than I expected considering this games poor sales and online activity. Not all of its great, but then again neither was 90% of the content released for UT/UT2kx. The games is just a few months old, we'll have to wait to the real good stuff comes out like ChaosUT, UCMP etc etc

 

[Anuban]

Guys, there is plenty of custom content for UT3. Alot more than I expected considering this games poor sales and online activity. Not all of its great, but then again neither was 90% of the content released for UT/UT2kx. The games is just a few months old, we'll have to wait to the real good stuff comes out like ChaosUT, UCMP etc etc

There are plenty of custom levels true but only approximately 25 near retail quality levels (imo and I don't even play online where exploits are unnacceptable ... it could be lower) and that is far lower than the amount of high quality levels that are ORIGINAL and use custom meshes that came out in the same time period for UT2K3/4 and I addressed what I believe is why on that thread Jeff referenced. And remember these are only levels ... take them out of the equation and the amount of user created content on the vehicles, character, and weapons is really low. And though there are lots of mutators 90% of them are still in the beta stage and don't have UIs. In fact as usual it seems most of the mutators got abandoned once the creator stopped playing or caring about UT3.

Just like a talented casual mapper can make a good map with little or no custom content.

I definitely agree with that sentiment. It does not always take custom meshes to make a great level. Some of the best levels around I have seen take what comes with UTx and use the assets in imaginative ways.

 

[Anuban]

Just to show there are other opinions about the state of user created content

http://utforums.epicgames.com/showthread.php?t=604791

You know I just posted to this thread and I was a little perturbed by the fact that I wasn't allowed to say what I wanted as if my post was going to create massive havok or something. At my age that kind of stuff does bother me ... but anyway since I can't say what I want on that thread I'll let you folks know how I answered this one post. I don't see what was bad about this post at all and I usually can understand why Jeff does the things he does, but on this one I strongly disagree with his call. Its great people are happy and of course as someone who is a big fan of this series I'm glad this is occurring but at the same time if someone is just flat out incorrect or misleading about the content I feel as if I should be able to point that out objectively. Especially when it comes to the PS3 levels on that site ... many many of which I tested and cooked so any question about my support for the products is seriously ridiculous.

Anyway here is the post ... I definitely wanted to answer this post and have my feelings about this "on record".

Originally Posted by Kevling View Post
I've given up searching for new content now, and rather lazily just rely on www.ut3mod.com
I just leave an old 64Mb memory stick in my PS3 at all times, download the mods using my PS3 browser, and install straight into the game, without having to faff around on my PC. Herby may not have the time to update the site with new content daily, but as of today there are already the following mods on there:-

* DEATHMATCH MAPS (53)
* CTF MAPS (14)
* MUTATORS (12)
* GAME TYPES (5)
* VEHICLE CTF MAPS (4)
* TUTORIAL (2)
* WARFARE MAPS (2)
* VEHICLES (1)
* WEAPONS (1)


I make that 73 maps the Herby has collated already. I've been in touch with him about adding some sort of ratings system, but the only one we've found so far doesn't work properly on the PS3 browser, which kinda makes it pointless really...

I even contacted the makers of one of the ratings systems, and they said if I got them a PS3 they'd be more than happy to test it

Well lets be honest now ... some of the maps on that site play poorly on the PS3 ... they have lots of exploits, framerate issues, and irritating bugs, and many are still betas so I wouldn't necessarily use that number as a measure of the number of actual completed working maps. Also that site highlights another issue (one that actually works in my favor) ... people are mainly creating DM maps ... the other gametypes are much more complex to develop for ... even CTF. So the question really becomes when can we expect some kick ass WAR maps since War is the star of UT3?

I am curious about this rating system though ... who is actually going to rate these maps? Would it be someone who has been part of the UT scene for a while and therefore knows good high quality levels or someone who is new to UT but a frequent player who doesn't quite understand what separates the solid maps from the rest?

Notice that I also had a very legitimate question which did not have to be deleted ... I mean come on what was wrong with asking about the rating system, seriously. But I don't have the time or inclination to be angry with anyone over this ... I just want my feelings known same as anyone else who posted to that thread.

Edit:

You admitted yourself that you would have pre-emptively deleted this kind of civil discussion mere hours after it had been posted if it appeared on the utforums. You already made that clear with your suggestion of this being a sadness/whine thread on the previous page. Here we have both sides of the story.

Quantity does NOT equal Quality.

In light of what just happened to my post on that thread I had to reference this quote ... I didn't think much about it before but now I have to laugh ... really laugh and just find the humor in all of this. But the main point is that last statement ... now if saying that or even implying it is enough to get a post deleted then there is a real problem with how things are being handled. But in any event it definitely applies to what I was saying in my response. This was after I had already pointed out how there were a decent amount of what many would regard as high quality levels in another post earlier on that thread and that post did not get deleted ... thankfully.

 

[osirisrt]

oh i can think of at least one kickass warfare map coming soon.. lol

 

[Anuban]

oh i can think of at least one kickass warfare map coming soon.. lol

Ah great ... that is good to know ... this is what I needed personally to keep me motivated and playing UT3 and working on certain skills even if I will never be online using them (once to judge how good the game works online is fine for me). If this thread is good for nothing else at least we are all finding out there is some more GOOD content on the way and that people are working diligently to become better and turn out more levels.

 

[Alhanalem]

I dont know what the OP is thinking, there have been some great maps for UT3 released.

To break the border between OK and awsome you need modelling skills and its just not something that everyone who opens the editor has. The new tools make various things easier, but they also raise the bar as well.

 

[Anuban]

I dont know what the OP is thinking, there have been some great maps for UT3 released.

To break the border between OK and awsome you need modelling skills and its just not something that everyone who opens the editor has. The new tools make various things easier, but they also raise the bar as well.

Did you even bother reading through the thread? I don't know how you could have and then make such a statement. No one is denying that there have been SOME really good maps released ... some are near retail level, but I was also talking about Original maps (not remakes). As far as great ... well that is definitely a matter of opinion and no you do not need modelling skills to make an awesome level. Setheran showed us all this with the first map cooked for the PS3. There was no custom stuff in their ... all that came for assets that come with UT3. In fact another amazing level Yard-SE also uses all assets that come with the game and you won't see a more refined remake of the classic quake level anywhere.

Here is a post I made that did not get deleted to a thread referencing lots of content available for UT3:

There are a few more quality maps that just those (Liandri, Pripyat, Orbital, Phobetor, Morbias, Downpour, Shrine, Kokki, CG-Harbor, Yard-SE, Conveyor, Atlas City, just to name some). Of course many are remakes but they look fantastic and have really good gameplay, definitely near retail level imo ... I am all about having only top notch levels in my collection no matter how many are available. The HOLP is excellent for example for what it aims to accomplish but those levels are really UT2K4 type levels so I won't count them among the other user created content ... there are also a lot of levels that are filled with some really bad bugs and exploits making them unplayable online and also some with no bot support ... now these latter two means that only half of the community can use them so is it really fair to count them is something each person has to decide for themselves.. But to be sure there are around 25 really high quality levels around (spread across the gametypes ... mainly DM of course) and another 15-20 that are just a shade under great ... and some of the levels in beta that are coming are really exciting. And then finally there are 15-20 that are good solid fun maps even if they are not as elaborate or polished as the ones I have previously mentioned. Of course this is all a matter of opinion and taste ... mine in this case.