I've been basically telling these people this for the longest time. This board's just too full of PC elitists. Every time you bring up a console game to them, they started bawling their eyes out for the PC. Not to say that PC games have been exactly nice these days but still, there are other systems than the PC.
Epic Launches UT Facebook Page
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I agree with that. But I think any PC gamer that has played enough console games would be able to see that UT3 on console is far from a console game. It's obviously a PC game ported to the console, regardless of the lousy menu. That's why Epic made Gears of War, because they had to make something that played much slower, had an interesting single player, and didn't feel awkward when using a controller so the average 360 player would give it a shot. UT3 is alien on a console. It's a PC game ported to the console, not the other way around. I'm certain epic knew before they even made UT3 that it was not going to be accepted on by console gamers unless they gave it the Gears treatment, and I'm glad they didn't go that route.
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Epic already dumped the series when they made Gears a priority. Besides, even though UT3 has some of the best gameplay in the series, to get any semblance of it, one has to endure a buggy mess of a game, lack of options/features or features better executed in your predecessors, and a clusterf*ck of an interface. When your competition or predecessor(s) has none of those impediments getting in the way of good gameplay, your game will suffer the rejection it rightfully deserves and move on to better games.
UT3 was a half-assed effort and the disenchantment towards Epic is well deserved. Who passes off what is considered to be a beta demo as a full game, without making an iota of an improvement according to fan feedback before calling it gold. In a nutshell, Epic ruined the series, not the players.
If anything, it's Epic that's on the high horse here. At the end of the day, Epic doesn't make the customers, it's the customers who make Epic. Without us, Epic would've easily been gobbled up by some large company like EA, Activision, Infogrames
or Bethesda years ago. Who knows, Gears may have never ever seen the light of day.I think you're just being picky. There are plenty of features in UT3, perhaps not as much as UT2K4, but more than just about every other multiplayer shooter. The menu interface does suck, but considering most people spend their time out of the menus, I don't see why that would be unforgivable. The bugs are nothing major or game-breaking. And most every game has bugs anyway.Epic already dumped the series when they made Gears a priority. Besides, even though UT3 has some of the best gameplay in the series, to get any semblance of it, one has to endure a buggy mess of a game, lack of options/features or features better executed in your predecessors, and a clusterf*ck of an interface. When your competition or predecessor(s) has none of those impediments getting in the way of good gameplay, your game will suffer the rejection it rightfully deserves and move on to better games.
UT3 was a half-assed effort and the disenchantment towards Epic is well deserved. Who passes off what is considered to be a beta demo as a full game, without making an iota of an improvement according to fan feedback before calling it gold. In a nutshell, Epic ruined the series, not the players.
If anything, it's Epic that's on the high horse here. At the end of the day, Epic doesn't make the customers, it's the customers who make Epic. Without us, Epic would've easily been gobbled up by some large company like EA, Activision, Infogrames
Seriously, those are the unforgivable atrocities that Epic has committed? I don't see a ton of Arena FPS coming out, so it's not like we can be so picky. I'd play UT with bugs and a bad interface over Quake or Nexuiz any day of the week. And UT3 has far more features than either of those games.
as said warpig, people do not realize that Cliff has told about support ut games is due they DO still likes the ut and their series ( And they would like to make another in the future ) if you choose to whining even if before release a new ut is like shoot first and then ask style take for sure Epic will finish the series forever with no more ut
The perfect games DOES NOT exist, people get over with whining; if you dont like play another game is easy and plain
The perfect games DOES NOT exist, people get over with whining; if you dont like play another game is easy and plain
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Epic has lost all the goodwill they had in the PC community.
There always was enough interest in UT, the problem was we were all so disgusted with what was produced, and Epic's high-handed treatment of us, that we gave up.
Cliff "Throw Static Meshes At Everything" Bleszinski really isn't in a position to throw emotionally charged statements around like that. After the disaster of UT3, does he really expect people to believe a word that's said by Epic?
A new UT would be great, but no-one believes that Epic is capable of creating a PC game any more. Because that's what it'll have to be to stand any chance of working. PC/Console cross-contamination is what caused a lot of the problems that the UT series had after the original game. Not to mention the Gamespy angle.
TF2 has proved that a F2P business model works. I just doubt Epic's ability to create a game with that much substance and content.
I'll believe it when I see it.
There always was enough interest in UT, the problem was we were all so disgusted with what was produced, and Epic's high-handed treatment of us, that we gave up.
Cliff "Throw Static Meshes At Everything" Bleszinski really isn't in a position to throw emotionally charged statements around like that. After the disaster of UT3, does he really expect people to believe a word that's said by Epic?
A new UT would be great, but no-one believes that Epic is capable of creating a PC game any more. Because that's what it'll have to be to stand any chance of working. PC/Console cross-contamination is what caused a lot of the problems that the UT series had after the original game. Not to mention the Gamespy angle.
TF2 has proved that a F2P business model works. I just doubt Epic's ability to create a game with that much substance and content.
I'll believe it when I see it.
I don't think we will see another Quake or UT-type MP game again, given that most FPS that succeed nowadays do so because of a solid (consistent & simple, but immensely fun) theme or memorable character story that stands behind it. I loved the TDM matches in UT2k4, mainly due to great level designs, competition curve and accessibility, but only through a PC interface. I never really made the change to FPS on consoles and therefore lost interest in MP; though I did like playing CofD but only because of the story.
Is everyone living under a rock? There are loads of arena shooters out there, and new ones coming out.
Nexuiz came out a couple of months ago, as an example. Monday Night Combat came out on Steam last year and is getting a free-to-play sequel later this year.
Arena shooters still exist. They're just not Quake or UT anymore.
Pretty much.
On release, you couldn't even save your settings properly in UT3; I can't name another game made by a big studio like Epic where you can't even save your settings. Sure, they fixed it with a patch, but that alone should tell you how much Epic cares about the PC as a platform. It's almost comical how Cliffy seems to get so surprised when PC gamers criticize Epic for not putting any effort into PC releases. I like UT3, but it was obvious that they didn't put much work into it compared to their previous games.
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I think some are misreading things, constructive criticism is a good thing. Most here (I'd guess) still think the worst UT is far better than other shooters out there.
The thing is, UT3 was developed in relative secrecy and the promised fan 'consultation' via the ' beta demo' came far too late to change or add anything . Sure, as a developer you can't take account of each and every often contradictory opinion out there , but there was massive consensus on certain things that were wrong with UT3 and if the development process had been a little more open , those things could have been avoided and it would have had a better chance of being a hit imho.
The thing is, UT3 was developed in relative secrecy and the promised fan 'consultation' via the ' beta demo' came far too late to change or add anything . Sure, as a developer you can't take account of each and every often contradictory opinion out there , but there was massive consensus on certain things that were wrong with UT3 and if the development process had been a little more open , those things could have been avoided and it would have had a better chance of being a hit imho.
Compared to UT1, UT2k4 and even Unreal1, UT3 simply had too much separating the player from the gameplay. I wouldn't even recommend the interface for any console game, it's that bad. If you weren't enduring the atrocious menu for far too long, you were in one of the many .inis tweaking sh*t that should've been in the menu in the first place.
Features are nothing if they are poorly executed. For example, in UT3, if someone sends me a message in-game, why do I have to leave the server I'm playing in and go back to the root menu and then trek through several screens of options to see the message and to reply?
Bugs being nothing major or game-breaking is subjective. Gamespy in itself, is a game breaking bug for many. Your enjoyment of UT3 depends on whether you are willing to tolerate the impediments to the gameplay.
Also, there are like more than a dozen or so maps that have bugs and exploits of their own, with most of them still unpatched to this day. Half of the CTF and VCTF maps that shipped with the game had some really bad anomalies and a lot of these are still unpatched to this day. A map like Deck that had originated in Unreal1, now allows you to get out of the play area and even stand on the invisible ceiling and wreak havoc below... still unpatched to this day. What's funny is that there were patches and updates that also brought new bugs into the mix.
It's just the tip of the iceberg. Not everyone is willing to lower their standards(like Epic did when sending off the buggy beta demo for mass-production) when they have gotten a better experience from past games or can get a better experience from newer games.
UT3 has a plethora of reasons for not attracting gamers or keeping them playing. I personally like the game(not all of it though) and would play it from time to time, but I could see why many wouldn't touch it with a ten-foot pole.
Maybe he can get Michael Bay to make an Unreal Tournament movie
No, Uwe Boll is the man for video game to film films.
I agree, and an old post of mine from last year is extremely relevant to this point. It's literally not that a good UT cannot be made, it's just that it is a challenging process that requires much more community commitment from Epic than they have been willing to give in the last decade. And that is not to say that they don't care about the community, because I know they do. It's more about their commitment to the quality and execution of the game.
Regarding #9, Skyrim has really born this out. They make (relatively) rapid and far-reaching fixes to the game on PC, the consoles get to wait until the updates are approved. I can think of at least two patches on UT3 that were held up because of the consoles. You really can't let any platform hold up the other platforms with a game like UT. Once the fixes are ready, they should be out. In Skyrim, this caused a problem with backwards flying dragons. Guess how quickly a patch fixing that came out?While true, I think that Valve has disproven this theory to a certain extent. Epic goes silent too easily now, their lack of open communication hampers their efforts more often than not. What people want is acknowledgement. They want to know that their issue has been identified and that it will be resolved in a timely manner. May I remind everyone that the issues UT3 had with custom content were not resolved for almost an entire year after UT3 released? This from a series that is and has always been renowned for it's mod support? And so many other issues were just never acknowledged at all.
Here is a comprehensive list of bugs in UT3
Of course, there are more issues. But the fact that so many of these issues were either not addressed or Epic admitted they would not fix them is just astounding, really. There are 86 bugs and only 11 of them were resolved is pathetic for a game like UT. Unfortunately, it only highlights the fact that UT3 was not and has never been Epic's primary focus.
I hope that Epic does a few things for the next UT game, if it ever happens:
1) Stay vocal with the community. They need someone that works in Epic's office that is a part of every team meeting that is open to comment on specific things with the community both before the game is released and before every "major" revision.
2) Stop doing major revisions. Multiplayer only games work best with lots of community feedback and frequent fixing. Small, incremental, frequent patches show that the company is watching the reported issues and taking care of things that are important to the community (you know, the people who play, support, populate, propagate your game).
3) Stop worrying about network compatibility. It is my understanding that the Demo Guy Bug in UT3, for example, cannot be fixed because it introduces a break in the network compatibility of the current version of the game with previous versions. Epic needs to stop worrying about this and focus on fixing problems. The majority of people actively playing your game would rather have a working game than be able to play with original retail copies of the game.
4) Communicate the basics of the game to the community earlier and the complex things later. With UT3, Epic was always talking about experimental gametypes and garbage like that. All that most of us want to know is how are level designers trying to avoid things like jagged brushes, simplified "arenas" and ideal flow. How are gameplay designers ensuring that the gameplay they are creating fits within the levels, pleases people who will play the game and helps to create a healthy community of people that enjoy the game. Nobody will care about the gametypes until the game is almost out.
5) Create a testbed game. A simplified and neutered version of UT in the browser or on Steam that is free would allow Epic to test out variations of gameplay, level design, gametypes, etc without affecting a retail launch of a game. I promise that as burned as the bridge is between Epic and the UT community right now, a bone like this would get A LOT of people interested. Especially if feedback was requested, encouraged and responded to. Don't allow modding and set the majority of the game's rules yourself. No intrusion on the retail game, but LOTS of good will to the community and a great way to build rapport and get excellent feedback about the game.
6) Stop bringing people in for 2-4 hour play sessions to tell you how the game feels. People figure out they hate this or that or find bugs after literally DAYS of hammering on a game. Saying that you had "the pros" (whoever that is) come in and test your game tells us nothing and makes it seem like only their feedback matters. Do #5. It will get you MUCH farther in a matter of days that an infinite amount of these play testing sessions ever will.
7) Act like you care... on a daily basis. I know Epic cares about UT. I know they aren't exactly happy about how that whole situation went down. Every once in a while someone at Epic threw the community a bone, and thousands of hounds feasted on it within minutes. The problem is, that bone disappeared right away and it was literally WEEKS (if not months) before we ever heard from anyone again. The community needs bones on a daily basis. This is where this person employed by Epic who is invited to all the progress meetings comes in. They can throw bones frequently.
8) Just do what the Epic Games of 1998/1999 would do. I don't think it's that out of line to say that the community feels like they are dealing with an entirely different company. The Unreal technology blog that Epic ran at unreal.epicgames.com was awesome. It was a great eye opener for the community and it kept people interested in new developments. It was posted to frequently and had technical talk not just marketing mamby pamby information. The community wants to know that Epic is in it with them. They want to be heard and know that the future looks bright. Even if the game has a terrible launch, things can get better. All it takes is communication. A one line post that says "we are aware of lots of issues and we are trying to tackle as many as possible. we'll keep you updated!" does a lot more than going dark and then surprising everyone with a bomb that only does about 25% of what any given individual really wants to see.
9) Focus on the PC platform first and let the consoles get what they can. On PC, you can commit to and do everything listed above. On consoles, you can't. Pick the platform that gives you flexibility first above all. Everything else should be playing second fiddle and should be "simplified" from the PC version. This is NOT an "I am better than you" statement, this is just reality. PC allows you to be flexible as a developer where consoles, in general, do not.
10) Reiterating, COMMUNICATE. We just want to know what is going on. If money has dried up and you can't support the game anymore... tell us! We aren't dumb, we look at the list of unfixed bugs in UT3 and the time it's been since the last patch and we know that support is done. Telling us makes us feel as if we are an important and integral part of the business.
In conclusion, I really do think another UT could be done and be done right. The only question is, is Epic willing to do what it takes to make the game a success? For now, I guess, only time will tell...
TL;DR version: THERE ISN'T ONE READ THE FREAKING POST
Importantly, it means things like backwards flying dragons didn't end up in the console versions, waiting for the next patch to come along and resolve it.
You get limited patch sizes and numbers of patches on console, so you really don't want to fuck those up. The PC however, you can do what you need to, so do it.
You get limited patch sizes and numbers of patches on console, so you really don't want to fuck those up. The PC however, you can do what you need to, so do it.
Well for a time undoubtedly there was a real downer at Epic on PC as a gaming platform going forward . They seemed to be jumping on every negative to confirm the collective narrative. Capps's comments about shifting the focus back to PC and it being the 'primary platform' again are obviously very encouraging and do mark a big change.
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If Epic trolled the still existing UT developers forums and said something like "Look, we will provide a full-sized pipeline for the online gameserver and fix some of the nagging engine crashes that are native side (like CanSeeMe) as well as adding better static mesh support and implementation (a la 2k4) but packaged in a throw-back UT environment would your groups be interested in providing updated mods for the disk to be shipped with?"
Something that simple would light a serious fire under existing groups like the JB community, Seige, Monsterhunt, etc. Epic could use existing architecture and vastly improve the basic UT engine, which already was done and never released BTW, and it could be done in a fairly short cycle. Then put the improved engine out to the existing groups and let them dev their mods up for release. The new 'throwback" UT could ship with very little effort from Epic, a lot of the guys that have worked for so long in the community for literally nothing could get a chance to shine on a very public stage <cough E3>, and everyone would be a winner. Production costs would be low since most of the work is farmed out and distribution via steam keeps physical disk costs low. There's no reason a USD $15 or $20 ThrowbackUT can't be sitting in the downloads queue in a year's time, with a huge development community already existing and working on new stuff. There are just too many people like Anthrax and Iniquitous and others that have given greatly of their time but I bet would jump at the chance to do something mainstream.
This worked for Valve when they began paying people for some of the better mod work in games like TF2 then selling it via steam. Most dev's don't do it for the money but the recognition is nice. Epic might consider following this model?
Something that simple would light a serious fire under existing groups like the JB community, Seige, Monsterhunt, etc. Epic could use existing architecture and vastly improve the basic UT engine, which already was done and never released BTW, and it could be done in a fairly short cycle. Then put the improved engine out to the existing groups and let them dev their mods up for release. The new 'throwback" UT could ship with very little effort from Epic, a lot of the guys that have worked for so long in the community for literally nothing could get a chance to shine on a very public stage <cough E3>, and everyone would be a winner. Production costs would be low since most of the work is farmed out and distribution via steam keeps physical disk costs low. There's no reason a USD $15 or $20 ThrowbackUT can't be sitting in the downloads queue in a year's time, with a huge development community already existing and working on new stuff. There are just too many people like Anthrax and Iniquitous and others that have given greatly of their time but I bet would jump at the chance to do something mainstream.
This worked for Valve when they began paying people for some of the better mod work in games like TF2 then selling it via steam. Most dev's don't do it for the money but the recognition is nice. Epic might consider following this model?
The problem is, all during 2005-2009 Epic was saying they are a PC focused company despite doing so many things to the contrary. So talk is all words at this point, it's time to see some action.
