Could the collosal amounts of debt be down to the way money works ?

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Zur

surrealistic mad cow
Jul 8, 2002
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We're often told there's too many unemployed, too many people living at the expense of others, healthcare is just too expensive, administration is just too bloated and it's our stupid fault if there's so much debt. Or is it ? Check this site out.

http://www.positivemoney.org/
 

Sir_Brizz

Administrator
Staff member
Feb 3, 2000
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To start with, that graph is wronger than crap. And aside from that, even if it was true, the amount of consumer credit out there only makes up 17% of our GDP.
 

Firefly

United Kingdom is not a country.
Brizz, that site is about the UK.

There are other countries in the world Brizz.
lol :D
facepalm.jpg
 
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DeathBooger

Malcolm's Sugar Daddy
Sep 16, 2004
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It won't work. It only takes one greedy asshole/complete idiot with the right job to ruin it for everyone. I wish the world was ran by robots.
 

Zur

surrealistic mad cow
Jul 8, 2002
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Here is a Swedish documentary going into the problem. Same would apply for the United States.

[m]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JtVtHjZcN7s[/m]
 

Zur

surrealistic mad cow
Jul 8, 2002
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Isn't this like saying "the ocean is wet because it's water?"

More like the ocean is wet despite there being no H20. Have a careful read through or view one of the videos.

Edit: Here, I'll spell it out:

http://www.positivemoney.org/issues/debt/ said:
2. For every pound of money, there’s a pound of debt
 
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ambershee

Nimbusfish Rawks
Apr 18, 2006
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Nomad
sheelabs.gamemod.net
That quote is the important bit. It's not strictly true, as arguably there is still non-electronic wealth in the country - but it is massively disproportional to bank created electronic wealth (32:1). Banks create money through measures such as giving out loans - ergo by creating a debt with the loan taker. In theory, the loan taker spends the money which is distributed amongst various people, and is eventually paid back to the bank. The system is however deliberately flawed:

1) It means that for every £33 you have in your UK bank account, someone owes £32. This isn't a problem if your society has decent wage equality, but we don't by a long shot. Consider as an example the average Premiere League Football salary is around £1.25 million per year and there are around 600 players in that league - those football players accumulate more money than they can possibly spend (£750 million per year between them), which means somewhere there has to be a debt of £730 million created to sustain wealth that is just festering in accounts. Footballers are just one example where numbers are easily obtained thanks to transparency. There are of course numerous corporate execs earning far more, many of whom have dangerous ties to our political system.

2) This is all of course assuming that all of your electronic money gets spent in your own country; it naturally doesn't thanks to international trade. Colossal sums of money are taken out of the country by multinational corporations, often abusing loopholes in the tax system so that not even that 20% corporation tax comes back (sometimes, less than 1% comes back). Now we have billions festering in offshore accounts instead.

3) Banks charge interest on everything. They charge interest on loans, they charge fees for holding accounts, fees for transactions, anything they can monetise. This is the most obvious flaw; if wealth is created when a loan is given by the bank and destroyed when a debt is paid - consider what is happening when the amount to be repaid is always more than what is given? The result is that more and more physical wealth is destroyed, and that's how we've reached that 1:32 ratio. People will tell you they own a house - but in reality that house is just another expensive debt to the bank (with interest) in the form of a mortgage. If everyone simultaneously either paid off their mortgages or defaulted and their property was to be possessed by the bank, it is reasonable to consider that banks could own 32 in every 33 properties in the country. That's scary.


Now finally, here's a delightful consideration - if after all this, the people oew the banks, the government owe the banks, but the banks still owe enough debt to have to be bailed out, who the fuck do they actually owe the debt to?
 

Zur

surrealistic mad cow
Jul 8, 2002
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Sir_Brizz

Administrator
Staff member
Feb 3, 2000
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£34,371 - £150,000 40 per cent (higher rate)

I CANNOT IMAGINE WHERE ALL THIS LIQUID CASH FLOW HAS GONE.
 

Zur

surrealistic mad cow
Jul 8, 2002
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Note that these claims are considered as hogwash by some economists. So do take this with a grain of salt. It changes nothing about the gravity of the world situation right now though.

Among things, it's bullshit to see that amounts of public debt are such that people in the western world would owe upwards of 30K each. Who has that kind of money on their account among regular workers ?

Now finally, here's a delightful consideration - if after all this, the people oew the banks, the government owe the banks, but the banks still owe enough debt to have to be bailed out, who the fuck do they actually owe the debt to?

I read somewhere that more than 70% of the money from Europe that went into helping out Greece was injected into the financial sector.

Now, about that question of who the banks owe money too. It could be between them or it could be simply their stakeholders.

So the shocking thought is that public resources are being used to augment private fortunes.
 
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Carbon

Altiloquent bloviator.
Mar 23, 2013
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Money, Banking, and The Federal Reserve System, Monopoly Men: Federal Reserve Fraud, Fiat Empire and Plunder: The Crime of Our Time.

Must-see films about this type of thing.