Beppo should..

  • Two Factor Authentication is now available on BeyondUnreal Forums. To configure it, visit your Profile and look for the "Two Step Verification" option on the left side. We can send codes via email (may be slower) or you can set up any TOTP Authenticator app on your phone (Authy, Google Authenticator, etc) to deliver codes. It is highly recommended that you configure this to keep your account safe.

-RoMe-infers

New Member
Nov 12, 2003
93
0
0
42
Paris
Visit site
Maybe don't give AT to both team!

Or maybe give UH60 to attackers. It is not easy to hit them with SMAW when the pilot is correct. No rocket of course in the UH, just Machine Guns. That would be nice.

I would say, One UH60 for WEST and one armed car for EAST.
 

GalZohar

New Member
Feb 27, 2008
97
0
0
38
Ramat Hasharon, Israel
MH-60s simply does not cut it. It may be durable when the enemy has no anti-air, but it's pretty hard to actually do anything useful with it.

A tank will be unstoppable with no AT on the other side, and with limited AT on the other side you basically make it a "does the guy with the AT know how to play or not?" game which isn't very much fun for the rest of the players.

Balancing is really a lot more complicated than just adding/removing something from a side. This is from experience of making missions and playing them.
 
Last edited:

-RoMe-infers

New Member
Nov 12, 2003
93
0
0
42
Paris
Visit site
Give me a MH60 if you have no anti Air. You wont move ;).
Please note that I know how hard it is to balance properly a mission. I'm just kinda 'throwing ideas' here.

Anyway the real problem here is still that arma is unplayable in CQC. And thats almost a game breaker for me.
 

GalZohar

New Member
Feb 27, 2008
97
0
0
38
Ramat Hasharon, Israel
Again, the biggest problem with the MH-60s is that even if the other team is unable to destroy it, you're simply not going to kill anything with it. If your gunner can get a clear shot at the enemy, the enemy can also get a clear shot at your gunner (or worse, the pilot), so you have to keep moving and as a result have a very hard time shooting (heck, you'll have a hard time seeing (which is actually the more critical issue here)) enemies.
 

ant75

aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa
Jan 11, 2001
1,050
0
36
Paris
Randomization should not be a problem with a little map editing. Then again, i'm speaking without any mapping experience on Arma, but i guess the same principles as in Inf could apply here. DTAS randomization system uses pathnodes to pick possible areas for spawning. Isn't it possible to create a specific map actor to pick possible spawn areas in Arma ? All it would take then is a bit of map editing : just add like 200 actors in the map, it should be more than enough to have a good variety of random spawn areas without it being totally random. My guess is that it would take no more than 2 hours per map to have a good spawnpoint placement.

Anyway, if there ever is a DTAS for Arma, i'm getting that game in no time.
 

GalZohar

New Member
Feb 27, 2008
97
0
0
38
Ramat Hasharon, Israel
Like I said, making DTAS the way it is now directily into Arma 2 is extremely easy. Getting it to actually play well is the real challenge, as Chernarus simply isn't your average UT map.
 
Apr 21, 2003
2,274
2
38
Europe
It's a shame GB is over, or near being so.
Who said that? Two things that changed, first; there will be no Sky Gods, as it was meant to be a military funded "mini-GB" and second; Blackfoot is no longer looking for a publisher, because publishers are dumbasses and Blackfoot is now officially an Independent Developer and do things by themselves, hence they are no longer bound to any release deadline. Beppo confirmed, that the project is not on ice, nor dead, they (including himself) are still working on it, it just isn't on a hurry yet, as Jsonedecker has a "side"job now to feed his family.

Ground Branch is not dead, yet. It just might take more time. Things can eventually change again, so everything is open and to expect, but nobody ever said that Ground Branch is dead.
You know, John invested to much to give up, I'm absolutely confident that there will be a release, it's just a question of time and form.
 
Apr 21, 2003
2,274
2
38
Europe
I thought about it, there is a team that made a mod for Doom3, a Thief mod (some might know the awesome "Thief" series). Their concept was to create the basics, such as the movement and combat of the character and enemies, the missions are meant to be created by the community (in the meantime and after the release).

I think that would be the best way for a lil INF release, lets call it "Infiltration Lite". I know that is already a damn hard thing to achieve, but what I think about is the most minimum of things to do:
- One player model/texture/animations/sounds
- VERY few weapons to model/texture/animate (1 pistol, 1 rifle, 1 grenade)
- a small TDM map (sorta training map, small but very interesting)

That's basically enough, keep the to-do things at the minimum, but make them as high quality as possible. I often see mods trying to get as big as possible, I prefer quality over quantity. I mean personally I can play with only one weapon, as long it works, feels and looks good (realistic that is).

Once the most necessary basics are done, the community can expand the content (making enemies and AI). I can tell from experience, that once something is there and it turns out to be really good at the start, it will motivate to do more.
 
Apr 2, 2001
1,219
0
0
Frankfurt/ Germany
Visit site
Instead of "lite" concepts I wish somebody would take the DTAS concept one step further to fully randomized maps.

Crysis is probably capable of that with is fully dynamic environment. Spawning lots of random rocks and bombs (to cut down random trees) before roundstart together with random spawns would lead to maps that are different each time you play...

A second idea would be to seperate an EAS like "mission" from the map itself and make it interchangeable so you could have lots of different combinations with few maps and few missions.

But I guess we all share the same doom: cooming back here for ever with little hope for anything that comes even close to good old INF... :(

At least the hope for GB isn't gone yet...
 

zeep

:(
Feb 16, 2001
1,741
1
36
Visit site
I'll teach you a trick to the BIS community zeep, if it is in the Arma 2 section your suggestion or what have you will get ignored unless it is groundbreaking. But if you post in the Arma 2 Editing section then you might get somewhere.
Hmm i believe that's where i posted, Arma2 Editing :p. I got maybe two replies, too bad no coder got interested. It's a shame really, many people at the BIS forum have been coding since OFP's days so i'm sure there's enough skill to be found there. the problem is to get them interested and motivated for an 'Inf like' feel... which they have never experienced / played..
..But simplicity is often the best in certain situations. Complete Randomness would allow for different tactical situations to be used or even hilarity.
Agreed.

..ACE2 features: The good thing is they will maybe fix the grenade system. BUT CQC wise, the rest is simply speeding up some anims. Thats it. It misses the more fluid stance change and weapon collision system. Sadly I think that even with ACE2, in a house, you will feel like an elephant.
The amount of work that ACE2 delivers is still amazing and really enjoyable. The only thing i'd wish for is that they'd fix CQC before creating cool new features.
*sigh* agreed too.

..Please note that I know how hard it is to balance properly a mission. I'm just kinda 'throwing ideas' here...
I'm not even worrying about balance. Like Psych says, lets put in a few weapons, one even, and have that function correctly. Forget about APC's, heli's and all that. Let the weapons balance out themselves.

If defenders spawn in a castle and attackers have to attack uphill, so be it. At least, for starters. Gameplay tweaks, location tweaks, that's all easy to do if the CORE is functioning right.

.. Isn't it possible to create a specific map actor to pick possible spawn areas in Arma ?..
It's done in a single/coop mission i play a lot. Work's like a charm.
- Random insertion by heli at some point. The mission is to get to a suitcase, randomly placed in a city, randomly defended by soldiers, tanks etc. He has tweaked the insertion and objective points precisely like we could do when we need to control spawnpoints.

The above mission is basically DTAS with coop humans against AI.

Like I said, making DTAS the way it is now directily into Arma 2 is extremely easy. Getting it to actually play well is the real challenge, as Chernarus simply isn't your average UT map.
Again, i would simply let the weapons balance out themselves. Some smoke worked wonders in the old inf days ;).

..Their concept was to create the basics, such as the movement and combat of the character and enemies, the missions are meant to be created by the community..

.. the most minimum of things to do:
- One player model/texture/animations/sounds
- VERY few weapons to model/texture/animate (1 pistol, 1 rifle, 1 grenade)
- a small TDM map (sorta training map, small but very interesting)

That's basically enough, keep the to-do things at the minimum, but make them as high quality as possible. I often see mods trying to get as big as possible, I prefer quality over quantity..

..that once something is there and it turns out to be really good at the start, it will motivate to do more.
Nice concept! That would be great if this dream inf-arma2 mod ever sees the light of day.. Agreed agreed etc.

Uhm, the name's taken. Inf Lite is a mutie for UT ..
Meh who cares about the name?! Inf is so long ago now anyway. I don't care if we call it pac-man :D


We need a skilled coder. Put him on an Infiltration diet for a month, and then have him mod ARMA2. Any coders here that want to team up and start modifying ARMA2's movement to begin with?

I understand enough about coding to be able to tweak values, compile code, etc. I'm willing to learn what is needed. I just want this to get going. :(
 

GalZohar

New Member
Feb 27, 2008
97
0
0
38
Ramat Hasharon, Israel
I tried not just to give them smoke (which usually does almost nothing in Arma 2 other than giving away your position) - I gave attackers a 6-round M119 smoke barrage on call, available every 35 seconds, so they can cover a pretty huge area with smoke. Attackers still seem to lose every time.

Maybe I should try it in the city I started making (by spawning the various (~12) enterable buildings onto the biggest airfield), maybe the tighter urban environments will make attacking actually a possibility without giving attackers significant gear/manpower advantage.

I have no clue how to modify game mechanics, but anything that has to do with game modes is extremely easy as long as you actually know exactly what you want to have in there and how it's going to work.
 
Last edited:

-RoMe-infers

New Member
Nov 12, 2003
93
0
0
42
Paris
Visit site
It's done in a single/coop mission i play a lot. Work's like a charm.
- Random insertion by heli at some point. The mission is to get to a suitcase, randomly placed in a city, randomly defended by soldiers, tanks etc. He has tweaked the insertion and objective points precisely like we could do when we need to control spawnpoints.

The above mission is basically DTAS with coop humans against AI.

CYPHER mission! Oh man that is the best mission on ArmA 2...


*Infiltration Related*
I'm desperate.

What can i say? In my mind Crysis IS the way to go if we want to gather up several weapon with freeaim, and fight in a dynamic and randomised environment.
I'm desperate noone tried this mod called TACTICAL LINE on Crysis. http://www.crymod.com/thread.php?threadid=37702
Hell there is even bullet drop and weapon Loadout!

The guy even said he wanted to emulate something like Infiltration! Anyway... i'm in contact with him, as he is french like me, so if thats still interesting some skilled people, let me know. siiiigh*
 
Last edited by a moderator:

Logan6

TC Vet
Dec 23, 2003
601
0
16
I've been playing ARMA2, seeking a coder to help me code the clunkyness out of the player movement. It feels like he's a giraffe walking around in the kitchen. If that works then all i need is a DTAS gamemode.

Sooo agree with you on the movement in Arma2. I feel like a drunk sailor on shore leave. What were they thinking? Plus, trying to keep your aim anywhere near the enemy is hard even when you are at full health. Ditto for driving. Your player does nothing over correct turns all the time. It sucks. I would kill for a mod that corrects movement, because now that ACE 2 is out, the game is pretty good and very realistic. Unfortuneately, it still has a lot of other bugs and the AI is really dumb.

Also, little thought seems to have been put into buildings, bridges, more realistic terrain, etc. However, I think this is the closest we have to the old inf on a new engine, to date.
 

GalZohar

New Member
Feb 27, 2008
97
0
0
38
Ramat Hasharon, Israel
Turn down head bob and 1/2 the drunkiness goes away. The real problem with Arma 2 movement is the collision detection and leaning (and inconsistencies between 1st and 3rd person views) - even with a pistol I have a hard time going up a stairwell even though in 3rd person view it looks like I should easily be able to move through there. Not that 3rd person is realistic, I just use it to check how I look to other people when testing stuff, as 3rd person view shows you the same as other players see you.

As for mission, I just finished making a first version of an attack/defend mission in a city made of 150 buildings that I spawned on one of the airfields (as buildings require a flat terrain and that was one of the few places where there is a large enough area with flat terrain). It's based on a "road patrol" mission we played on Zeus - you have to patrol through 4 sectors in the city (my addition: sectors are small and placed at random in the city), and changed from "attackers:defenders 2:1 ratio" to "attackers have an M1A2 and an M2A3". Hopefully we'll get to play it a bit on Sunday and see how it works. If balance works well, it can provide quite a lot of play time, as the randomness and the fact defenders can choose which objectives to defend and which not to defend (attackers need to patrol ALL 4 to win) will make it quite different every time. That's a big IF though.


Here's an air photo of the city I made (all buildings are enterable):

file.php
 

zeep

:(
Feb 16, 2001
1,741
1
36
Visit site
Curious to know how that mission plays out. Good luck with it.
Turn down head bob and 1/2 the drunkiness goes away. The real problem with Arma 2 movement is the collision detection..
Yes. That and also the fact that 'minor' movements do not translate well to the player because of the animations and how they play out, forcing more movement than you want. The animations are not fluid according to movement, but movement plays according to animation.
You get what i mean?

i.e. A small sidestep movement causes a whole lot of shaking going on. I see hands shaking on the weapon barrel, animations kick in and take the movement from there. This results in a clunky, *shudder*-like movement.
Playermovement should feel much more fluid. If anything, OFP:DR at least got that part right.
Something as simple as looking around and aiming in ARMA2 seems even an effort instead of a natural movement.

GalZohar, you appear to know a bit of scripting, coding even perhaps, can you try some experimental modding to the movement?
 

GalZohar

New Member
Feb 27, 2008
97
0
0
38
Ramat Hasharon, Israel
I don't really know how to mod anything with the game, all I know is how to make missions and the scripts required for them, aka placing stuff, some basic AI scripting (add waypoint here, change waypoint there), and conditions (when to win/lose the mission).

Like I said, making any kind of well-defined game mode is a piece of cake. The problem is what most people ask for isn't really "well-defined", ex you can't just make a totally random mission (not to mention environment) and have it work well. If you take cipher for example, there is a LOT of effort and workarounds going on there to make it what it is, plus probably using a lot of knowledge I don't have regarding placing units in proper locations (which probably won't even help when making a smaller scale mission).

As for the movement, making a small movement is definitely an issue, but unfortunately it's not the biggest one. I find the collision detection and leaning mechanics a lot more annoying. Also I doubt those are things that can be fixed with a mod - heck, you can't even make a proper stamina system because there's absolutely no way to change the character's movement speed during the game, hence the lame ACE2's stamina system.
 

zeep

:(
Feb 16, 2001
1,741
1
36
Visit site
Really there's no way to change movement speed even with a mod? Hmm.. I'm getting some info on modding together and will try to make something myself too.
 

GalZohar

New Member
Feb 27, 2008
97
0
0
38
Ramat Hasharon, Israel
AFAIK all you can do is change speed(s) in some config but you can't change it via a scripting command, so it's nearly useless. Of course the current movement speeds could use some tweaking (currently jog is so fast I hardly ever bother to sprint, yet you can jog forever and with ACE if your loadout is somewhat reasonable you can jog practically forever as well). If you actually need to use sprint in critical moments then being too tired for sprinting might actually matter (plus you can force players to fast-walk once they are too tired to jog as well). Of course I don't even know if these simple changes are possible, but at least I don't know if they are impossible ;)

The game's modding is quite limited to "make more units" and "make more weapons". Adding new animations and changing how recoil works is possible, but with the way the engine work it doesn't seem very feasible to actually make something INF-worthy out of it. But then again Arma 2 is the closest we have to what we like in INF.

The coop mission I made in that city was working pretty damn nicely after I added a lot of scripts for AI positioning that allowed me to reduce the amount of AI to a reasonable level, however it still requires quite a strong CPU (something like an OCed i7 minimum). I would try to optimize it more but currently there are less than 50 enemies on average, and it would be hard to keep it challenging if I place even less AI in there. Of course the PvP should be a non-issue there (as the load seems to be completely AI-related), but I'm still waiting for a chance to actually try this with Zeus to see how the gameplay works.