BadDog's Documentation project

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Mychaeel

New Member
I absolutely agree. Nobody needs an UnDox replacement.

But no automated documentation utility could ever replace documentation written by a human with experience. UnDox's output is great for browsing the class tree, but that's it.

I admit that I do not really believe that we'll have a thorough documentation of the Unreal class tree by the end of this week. ;) But I will add information to the Unreal Wiki bit by bit and hope that a lot of other people will do the same. That way we'll eventually get the Unreal classes documented in a way that goes far beyond listing their public properties and methods.
 

tarquin

design is flawed
Oct 11, 2000
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It's going really well. :D :D :D

I'm sure we can think of lots of topics that don't fall under the class tree. Procedural tutorials like "making doors" or "how to make glass" and general stuff about how BSP works, how to develop architecture, using trim effectively, etc.
 

tarquin

design is flawed
Oct 11, 2000
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NFG -- I shall quote a piece of the FAQ I've started writing for the project:
Q: I'm not l33t enough to contribute.
A: Anyone can help. If you've ever opened UnrealEd, you're bound to know something. If you've only opened it once, you have the beginner's perspective — if the articles aimed at beginners don't make sense to you, change them so they do!

I've made a start on a tour of the UEd interface -- prime example of an article that should be accessible to a n00b. Sadly, it's probably denser than concrete, simply because I'm so accustomed to UEd I gloss over things that would trip a noob up. Feel free to work your editing skills on it. :)

and another quote:
The great joy of wiki is that you can do a half-assed job. Someone's bound to spot gaps in what you've written and fill them. —Tarquin
 

tarquin

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Oct 11, 2000
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I didn't mean to imply you are un-l33t.
I thought as a FAQ question it was a succint way of saying "I don't have enough knowledge of UEd to write articles about it."
 

DRT-Maverick

Lover of Earwigs
Dec 4, 1999
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Got an email from him too, I agreed and he's using my tutorials.

I was going to do something like this too, but was too lazy...
 

OshadowO

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Feb 10, 2000
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I like the UnrelEdWiki thing a lot. I've added a couple of things in there and somebody fixed them up(edited) afterwards:). One thing I don't get is why Bad dog is working on a differnt project while taruin and techno are wokring on another. To me essentially it seems to be the same thing. Did I miss something :confused:
Anyway good luck to both projects. I'll try and help by adding stuff to wiki as much as I can from what little I know. I really think it a super cool idea:tup:
:)
 

tarquin

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Oct 11, 2000
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Originally posted by OshadowO
I like the UnrelEdWiki thing a lot. I've added a couple of things in there and somebody fixed them up(edited) afterwards.
Probably me :) I think I've put headings in made words into links on a few of your entries. The Wiki is a sort of anarchic system, everyone has the same amount of control.

One thing I don't get is why Bad dog is working on a differnt project while taruin and techno are wokring on another. To me essentially it seems to be the same thing. Did I miss something :confused:

Well it's like this: diplomacy is not my strong point. When it's my intention to be subtle I end up railroading people wholesale, without meaning to :(. In real life, when I try and say "I think it might perhaps be better if we did it this way, maybe" people actually hear more like "we're doing it MY way because I know better, and I don't want to hear any objections because they're wrong so tough!".
I tried politely implying that BadDog's project and the Wiki could merge for the greater good, but either I was too subtle or he's happier working on his own thing :)
(I wouldn't even be posting this, but I have the golden excuse that I've just come back from the pub and I'm a tad squiffy)

I'll try and help by adding stuff to wiki as much as I can from what little I know. I really think it a super cool idea
:D Wikipedia say that one of the most efficient ways of building up good pages is when people make a rough start on a page, or just list what should be covered, because then the next person to read the page will enhance the ideas & expand on it. So no matter how little you think you know, you'll always have things to add, or ideas of what an article should cover.
They also say that the Wiki is pushed & pulled in different directions by different writers & that diversity is one of the system's strengths. When there's a certain amount of material re-organizing is also an important task. For now all tutorials are getting linked from one page, but as that fills up I expect we'll start to split it into logical sections.

I'm working on a nicer header for the pages at the moment.

tarquin signing off, Father Jack style. (drink! feck!) :)
 

TaoPaiPai

Commisaire Van Loc
Jun 13, 2000
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Originally posted by OshadowO
One thing I don't get is why Bad dog is working on a differnt project while taruin and techno are wokring on another. To me essentially it seems to be the same thing. Did I miss something :confused:
Oh! May I answer? May I answer? pleaase?...
It's old as ages : vanity and self-esteem.
(see this thread:
http://forums.beyondunreal.com/showthread.php?threadid=90179
)

I think there will always be someone new to come over and decide HE will launch the project of the century to gather all tuts together,regardless of what have been done before.Noone will want to continue on some work done before by somebody else.Nah...
It's better to start and prove the world you are the one.
(it's the same thing in Physic science,philosophy,etc... every one wants to talk about HIS personal unification theory.very entertaining.)
It's like when you ask Tarquin and badboy why there are 2 separate projects and Tarq thinks you asked him to explain how the way his mind functions is the cause of everything...

However I think Tarquin's project has more potential because of it's Wiki form ,and Tarquin we really need to be able to post pictures because we won't be able to go further now.Enough text.
 

tarquin

design is flawed
Oct 11, 2000
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Originally posted by TaoPaiPai

Oh! May I answer? May I answer? pleaase?...
It's old as ages : vanity and self-esteem.

quite right.
I launched the wiki for totally selfish reasons: I'm sick of having to trawl through the web to find information about the engine. :p

I started from scratch for the above reason too. The other option was to say to an existing site "hey, I'd like to come and work on your site, by the way, there's this perl script called wiki that's way better than what you've got, we should switch to that and ditch the current setup" -- I really didn't think that would go down well.

The wiki is on server space that's held in my name on DexterII's server. Mychaeel has the same access privileges that I do, and all that does is allow us to fiddle with the perl script & the style sheets. The overall look of the site is determined by the wiki script, although I'm working on a nicer header.
Beyond that, I have the same amount of say as anyone else. The content and organization of the site is determined by the contributors.
If I make editorial changes a contributor doesn't like, they can undo them, or make their own alterations.

So I'd say it's not so much 'my site' as a project I happen to have launched, which I hope will grow independently of my input.

If existing tutorial sites want to merge into the wiki & import their material wholesale I would be delighted.


Tarq thinks you asked him to explain how the way his mind functions is the cause of everything...
a) nope, I just explained my side of the story.
*mifffed* No I didn't think that. Sheesh. I'm all too aware that I can come across as arrogant & egocentric. In RL I do a very nice line in trampling all over other people's egos, hence I usually over-compensate by treading on eggshells. Please don't accuse me of those when I'm trying to tone it down.
b) I am absolved for reasons alcohol, as mentioned. :D (this post too is likewise covered)

we really need to be able to post pictures because we won't be able to go further now. Enough text.

Mychaeel will be providing an uploader script, but he's very busy at the moment. In the meantime, you can email me pics & I'll upload them.
 

BadDog

bStrange=True
Dec 21, 2001
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let me explain...

First of all, without a high speed internet connection, tutorials with lots of pictures will take forever to load, and if mappers in general had a high speed internet connection, they would be playing rather than mapping (at least I know I would).

Second, I have seen very few explanations on the wiki that include lots of pictures, and to be blunt.... no pictures is like reading a manual or textbook, which is quite frankly boring. If the wiki included the 1400+ pictures that I included, it would take 6 days for each page to load.. Kind of pointless when you want to just quick reference the RBG values to find a neon purple light color.

In general, from what I have read, there are very few step by step by step tutorials on the wiki. More or less it seems to be a technical reference as to the functions class structures etc. The help file I am compiling is much much different:

It is for offline use (because quite frankly if I am going to be mapping, I'm NOT going to be online and you all know what a gamble it is to minimize the editor like you would need to do to reference the wiki online...you are about to add pathnodes and want to reference what exactly is the best way to do it ... minimize UED, log onto the net... find the wiki.... find the topic... cross your fingers and pray that someone with half a brain has posted under that subject and that it isn't just a "Pathnoding is what allows bots to move through the level. Related info Navigation Points ...Navigation points, Navigation Points are what compels a bot to perform a specific function at a specific place within a level... Related Topics.... special events... aggh" then, after all that you go back to your task bar, click on UED and....blam "critical error" )

If I am trying to find info on pathnoding, I want specifics:

EXCERPT from BB_Drac's Pathnode tutorial "...Even though you place navigation points you need to select
"Show paths" to see how your network is connected.
To do this you press the right mouse button on the titlebar for any
viewport, select "View" and then "Show Paths".

A single pathnode is a single point in which the network is built
from. By adding nodes at strategic positions, corners, hallways, stairs
and so on, bots are able to navigate from one position to another.

As stated a "PathNode" is just a simple node. To make bots understand
tricky situations other types of nodes are used.
This includes defense points, control points, inventory spots and so on.

It is important to know that most nodes from the category "NavigationPoint"
works as a navigation node (pathnode) but with specific properties.
A good example of this is playerstarts. Its only function is to tell
the engine where it can spawn bots and players.
While playing the playerstart do not have any useful function.
However, bots will still treat this node as a pathnode and it will be
a fully functional part of the network.
This also applies to the node "InventorySpot" which is placed at all
items you place in the level, by the engine when you define paths.
This means that you do not need to place pathnodes above items, weapons and
pickups to let bots understand that they are able to walk there.
In theory you could use weapons, items and pickups placed all around the level
and not use one single pathnode and still have a fully functional network
for bots to use.

When you select define paths the engine will calculate all possible
connections between the nodes.
A connection is shown with a blue or red line between two nodes and this
is a path that bots will consider using.
To succesfully connect two nodes with each other they MUST be in visible range of
each other and not too far apart.
They should not be too close either or bots might get stuck...."

Like I said...specifics damnit!!! anything else is just someone showing off what they believe they know about the editor to impress others , usually using big words to sound as 'leet' as possible and usually doing nothing to explain HOW to implement the function that they are defining.

Second, the html helpfile will be able to link to the help tab in the editor w/o leaving the editor to reference it.

Third, as much as I am impressed with some peoples tutorials and prefer to use them, someone else may like the way another author describes a process... for example:

BB_Drac, David M, Dylan, Maverick, Lode, and about 10 other authors have put out very specific, step by step lighting tutorials. I may prefer tutorials by Lode( very specific and technical w/o a lot of side comments and humor) whereas someone else might like David M's lighting tutorials because they are less 'formal' and are fun to read as well as informative. The html help file will allow you to search topics by keywords or authors, so if you like tutorials by Maverick, you can pull up all of his tutorials on every subject; whereas, if you want to simple search under 'dynamic lighting' you can pull up 20+ tutorials by different authors and use information from some or all of their perspectives as they suit your needs in a specific situation.


I would go on with simple stuff like..."why retype something somebody has already addressed so that it can be placed on the wiki... but hey , if it floats your boat, do it... I haven't bashed the wiki or degraded it's value (till now, and actually Tarquin, I am not meaning to bash it, though it is probably coming across that way) In fact, I have helped Tarquin with that project by putting him in touch with a perl coder. The way I see it the more resources, the better since 50% of the tutorials for the editor that once existed are gone now, their knowledge lost forever (due to weaning interest, site closings...etc) Some people will prefer the wiki and going online, others will prefer the help file hooked to the UED help tab... what I prefer may be entirely different than what you prefer. Like I said... if I am doing a report on 'aerodynamics' I don't want to go to the library, or look it up online, I'd much rather have a program on my desktop that I can click on once and reference every aspect of aerodynamics written by the experts in the field.

Lastly, to say "why compile the tutorials when there are people putting together a website that should cover the same topics" is like asking Lode why he wrote a lighting tutorial when Millennium already wrote one :p
 

Mychaeel

New Member
Firstly, the Wiki isn't finished at this time (not that anything like that could ever be considered "done" at all). Secondly, if you feel that it's going into a wrong direction (not enough "specifics," not enough images, whatever), hit that "Edit this page" link and change it.

The Wiki is just a way of organizing knowledge, like putting it all into a big help file is another way of organizing knowledge. The actual content is subject to change.
 

BadDog

bStrange=True
Dec 21, 2001
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hehehehehe

it seems that Tarquin assumed that TaoPaiPai was referring to him.

I thought he was refering to me... hehehe

there ya go Pai two pissed off responses one from each of us... and for the record, I don't tread on eggshells and if you don't like it ...well FvCK U :mad: Don't make me smack your biatch ass with a deltree

Let me ask....what have you done?? I don't see any tutorials on the net from you? I would say that you are someone who likes to take care of yourself, rest of the world be damned....

Me, this is my little thank you to the people who wrote the tutorials that allowed me to open the editor without throwing up :)

To anyone it applies to: If you don't like it.... don't download it... if you don't like the wiki, don't contribute or read it... but if you haven't contributed to the community then shut the hell up and don't concern yourself with those of us who are contributing....

and for the record, the html help file will have the link to the wiki on it's links page as well as several other places so it can be used with or in addition to... the help file.

this isn't a competition, both projects have their advantages and disadvantages, merrits and faults. But both are for the benefit of the community so both are sound. Both are being done by people donating their own time and efforts so you don't have to....


also NGF.... I probably will release it on CD for those who want it mailed to em ( I haven't figured out exactly how, if the demand is great I may have to charge my cost in shipping and cds' but I would guess that that would be around $1 to$4 depending on the destination and method of shipping, obviously, if someone wants it next day airmail, it would be slightly higher. I didn't start this to get money or fame. A Jedi craves not these things ;) I didn't write the tutorials so my name is in the reference guide a whopping twice at this point.
 

tarquin

design is flawed
Oct 11, 2000
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Originally posted by BadDog
it seems that Tarquin assumed that TaoPaiPai was referring to him.
I thought he was refering to me... hehehe

there ya go Pai two pissed off responses one from each of us... and for the record, I don't tread on eggshells and if you don't like it ...well FvCK U :mad: Don't make me smack your biatch ass with a deltree.

I assumed he was referring to both of us.
I was only slightly miffed with Tao for the way he assesed the tone of my response. In general I agree with him.


Let me ask....what have you done?? I don't see any tutorials on the net from you? I would say that you are someone who likes to take care of yourself, rest of the world be damned.....

actually, Tao has been a long-time forum poster, helper of n00bs and has contributed to the wiki:
http://www.imahosting.com/unrealwiki/cgi-bin/wiki.cgi?Project_Contributors
 

BadDog

bStrange=True
Dec 21, 2001
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please forgive ....

me temper gets the best of me sometimes specially when I am tired.

I think the wiki is progressing in grand fashion, I go read it often and probably will refer to it on occasion.

I have nothing but respect for the wiki project and think Mychaeel and Tarqin have done an excellent job implementing a great idea. I was outa line suggesting that it wasn't specific enough (specially since I haven't contributed anything to it as of yet) I was merely trying to point out a difference in the two projects presentation styles.

I really should go to bed now, and Pai... I was j/k bout the deltree
hehehe damn my irish/german temper ;)

~~ the 'FvCK U' still stands though *grins*
 

OshadowO

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Feb 10, 2000
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/me wishes he could take back his first post. ....sorry...
editing forumers ---->:stick:<--- oshadowo
/me slinks back to his dark corner.