2010: The Year of The Corporations?

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Sir_Brizz

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Feb 3, 2000
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Follow me here. A corporation hires people and makes lots of money. People profit. Those people buy goods and services. Other people profit. Good?

Also, politicians don't create **** and any development they allow or decree is funded by taking money from someone else.
This.

A company's interests may not lie in free market expansion and competition, but the beauty of a free market is that you can vote with your pocket book every time you go to the store. Don't like Walmart? Stop funding them, run campaigns to educate people about other low-cost options, introduce some competition in their space. You can't do that with politics (except maybe campaigning).

Also, I think it's funny that it is illegal for a company to slander/libel another company in advertising, but Presidential campaigns are required/encouraged to do that to win... wtf is wrong with this country?
 

Grobut

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Oct 27, 2004
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A company's interests may not lie in free market expansion and competition, but the beauty of a free market is that you can vote with your pocket book every time you go to the store. Don't like Walmart? Stop funding them, run campaigns to educate people about other low-cost options, introduce some competition in their space. You can't do that with politics (except maybe campaigning).

Here's the problem with that Brizz, it only works if there is indeed a free market in place, the only reason you can vote with your wallet and buy the cheaper alternative is because it exists, there is a competitor who not only makes a similar product but also sells it cheaper, and thus a free market where you as a consumer can choose.

But it doesen't have to be that way, by no means! Let me give you real-life example:
Less than a decade ago here in Denmark, all the Opticians where engaging in Price-Fixing, and if anyone doesen't know what that means, it's when rival companies meet up, and decide to not compete, to all keep their prices nearly identical, so they can be kept artificially high, ensuring that they will all profit greatly, afterall, the consumer has no alternative, the prices are all the same, so if they need the product they will have to buy it at thease inflated prices, and will probably buy it in the store nearest to them, there's no reason going to the competition afterall, they have the same prices, so all the stores involved should see plenty of buisness too.

And me beeing nearsighted, i really had no choice, i need glasses to see, so i had to fork over absurd amounts of money for a pair of glasses, and there was nobody who was offering a better deal!

Price-Fixing is illegal, it's against the free market, and thus there exists rules and regulations to prevent it, due to lack of evidence however, the Opticians in this country where able to run this scam for a very long time, and a lot of people suffered financially for it, but thankfully, it's been delt with now, and there once again exists healthy competition in this market, which means i can see without beeing bled dry, a pair of glasses now costs less than a third of what they did back then, and i have free-market competition to thank for that.


But this is the point, the private sector has no vested interest in a free market and competition, they will make much more money if they have monopolies or price-fixing arrangements instead, thats where their personal best interest lies, and that goes for all of them, they all profit more if they do this sort of thing.
The only thing keeping them in competition is the fact that it has been made illegal for them to do price-fixing, or otherwise circumvent the idea of the free market.


Thus, in the real world, the free market is a paradox, technically it's not 100% free because the Government has to regulate and police it, but on the flipside, if they didn't, then the private sector would elleminate competition, because they have no interest in competition, it goes directly against their primary goal and reason for existing, to make a profit.
And with no competition, there is no alternative and no free market, no choice, your wallet's vote means nothing! What good is protesting the prices at Wallmart if all the other outlets have the exact same prices? It would be futile..


The idea that the market will regulate itself is a pipedream, it wont, it's not self-sustainable because it goes directly against human nature, why would companies choose to compete when it is the exact opposite of what would make them the bigger profit? They woulden't, obviously, and they didn't, which is precisely why the Government had to go and invent laws against things like price-fixing in the first place!
 

kiff

That guy from Texas. Give me some Cash
Jan 19, 2008
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Less than a decade ago here in Denmark, all the Opticians where engaging in Price-Fixing
...
The idea that the market will regulate itself is a pipedream, it wont, it's not self-sustainable because it goes directly against human nature, why would companies choose to compete when it is the exact opposite of what would make them the bigger profit?
No system is perfect. that said, the more players the better. if a smarter optician joined the game he would have undercut the others and blown them away through volume sales. that would have forced them all to lower their prices to compete.
 

Grobut

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Oct 27, 2004
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No system is perfect. that said, the more players the better. if a smarter optician joined the game he would have undercut the others and blown them away through volume sales. that would have forced them all to lower their prices to compete.

One tried, and was strongarmed out of the buisness very quickly, the man even claims that he recived anonymous death threats for daring to compete.

It's just not that simple Kiff, anyone who has taken on a big corporation, and their cabal of expensive lawyers, political connections and vast fortunes can attest to the difficulty of such a task, even if you are in the right, fighting a resource powerhouse like that is just not a fair fight.

And thats with Government rules and regulations in place that tries to protect the little guy, now imagine thouse are removed..
 

kiff

That guy from Texas. Give me some Cash
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One tried, and was strongarmed out of the buisness very quickly, the man even claims that he recived anonymous death threats for daring to compete.
It's just not that simple Kiff
It should have been that simple if government didn't fail to do their role.

anyone who has taken on a big corporation, and their cabal of expensive lawyers, political connections and vast fortunes can attest to the difficulty of such a task, even if you are in the right, fighting a resource powerhouse like that is just not a fair fight.

And thats with Government rules and regulations in place that tries to protect the little guy, now imagine thouse are removed..
Hey, I'm not advocating getting rid of any anti-trust (or other applicable) laws. But w/o government all of those lawyers and political connections mean nothing ;) Seems like you may have contradicted your own point a little.

Believe me, I know what you're saying. I'm trying to get a small electronics business going, but there's no way in hell I can even try to compete w/ the large corps that can pump out products w/ assembly lines and huge advertising budgets.
 
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Grobut

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Oct 27, 2004
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It should have been that simple if government didn't fail to do their role.

Hey, I'm not advocating getting rid of any anti-trust (or other applicable) laws. But w/o government all of those lawyers and political connections mean nothing ;) Seems like you may have contradicted your own point a little.

Believe me, I know what you're saying. I'm trying to get a small electronics business going, but there's no way in hell I can even try to compete w/ the large corps that can pump out products w/ assembly lines and huge advertising budgets.

Not really, the flaw in any legal system is that it cannot magically assertain who's lying and who's telling the truth, so it must rely on evidence, which in turn means that the skilled criminal may get away scott free if he covers his tracks well enough.
That's not really something that can just be fixed though, how could we?
So no, as you correctly pointed out, nothing's perfect.

Still, the fact that thease legal checks and balances do exist, even if they aren't perfect, is a damn sight better than them not existing at all, then there really would be no way for the little guy to get a slice of the pie, or to ensure the continued existance of a free market, i mean, if nobody is enforcing fair-play rules, then why should people play fair?

It's basically the same reason we have cops, people aren't supposed to break the law, but you need someone to enforce it if they do anyway. In a perfect world, there would be no need for cops, but this isen't a perfect world, and hell, even the cops aren't perfect (which is why we need police to police the police, uhh that was fun to say!).


But you get my point, however, there are people who don't, who think that any and all Government intervention, even anti-trust laws, constitutes "Socialism", and that everything would be rainbows and lollypops as far as the eye can see if we did away with all of it, that the market would regulate itself with nary a bump on the road and all would be right and propper with the world.

Thease people need a serious reality check, and quite possibly a theraputic smack to the back of their head, and a time-out on the naughty-stool.


That's really all i'm saying, the checks and balances are there for a reason, and whilst it may seem a bit of a paradox, someone has to police the market if it is to stay free.
 

Sir_Brizz

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Feb 3, 2000
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I'm not advocating turning the government over to big business at all. I just don't understand why people hate one type of people that act a certain way and then show bleeding heart love for other groups of people that use the exact same tactics. Politicians ARE businessmen, except they don't sell you anything tangible (usually).

The government instituting sensible rules and regulations over private businesses that encourage competition is a great thing. But you don't encourage competition or do private industry any favors when you, for example, force everyone to buy a product or force companies to provide a product at a specific price. If "big business" can strong-arm out small players in the market that can provide real competition, just imagine what the government can do.
 

Grobut

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Oct 27, 2004
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I'm not advocating turning the government over to big business at all. I just don't understand why people hate one type of people that act a certain way and then show bleeding heart love for other groups of people that use the exact same tactics. Politicians ARE businessmen, except they don't sell you anything tangible (usually).

The government instituting sensible rules and regulations over private businesses that encourage competition is a great thing. But you don't encourage competition or do private industry any favors when you, for example, force everyone to buy a product or force companies to provide a product at a specific price. If "big business" can strong-arm out small players in the market that can provide real competition, just imagine what the government can do.

The simple answer: We don't!

You know all thouse famous quotes about Government, like "the price of freedom is eternal vigilance" and so forth, yeah, we know them too and they make an awfull lot of sense.

But on the flipside, we must also accept the reallity that we're not going to get very far without a Government, Anarchy and mob-rule just isen't conducive to a succesfull society, much less one most of us would like to live in.

So it's a case of damned if you do, and damned if you don't, that's the price we pay for having outgrown mudhuts and tribal life (and even they had Tribal leaders anyway).


I don't love my Government, if i could i might even smother every last one of them with a pillow in hopes that better people would replace them, but at some point, you'll just have to grow the hell up, and come to terms with this nessesary evil that Government is, you don't have to like them, much like i'm not inclined to love the cop who is handing me a speeding ticket, and you certainly shoulden't trust them blindly, hell no, and by all means, raise a stink when they cock things up, but at the end of the day, we'd be well and truly up the creek without this institution.

Now stop whining about "The man" holding you down, you dirty Hippy! :p
 

Sir_Brizz

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Now stop whining about "The man" holding you down, you dirty Hippy! :p
The sad thing is that our government was instituted partially as an escape from "The Man" and it turned into "Big Brother" instead :p
 

Larkin

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Apr 4, 2006
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Don't be naive, there's never going to be a truely free market, even if you somehow got all the governments of the world to pull out (remeber, it's a global economy now), the corporations themselves would destroy it very quickly, they have nothing to gain from a free market, no, the money's not in healthy competition, quite the opposite..
That is nonsense. I would make an argument, but I don't see one given so...


You know why there doesen't exist a truely free and self-regulating market? it's because it doesen't work, it's a pipedream to rival Communism, and the Government constantly had to step in to prevent abuse, because the private sector has zero personal interest in a free market, it's not good for buisness, it keeps prices down instead of up, ohh no, it's no good at all, it's so much easier to just engage in price fixing, and so much more profitable too!
Now here is an attempt at an argument. I would challenge you to find examples of when the government stepped in to prevent abuse that is actually abuse that can't be handled by the market. The problem is you are going to have a great deal of trouble doing such because in all the cases the people are the ones that caused it to happen and they are the ones most capable of fixing their mistake. Now you might ask but what if a company decides to sell a unsafe product. I must beg to ask you, what is the price of safety? Does safety come at a low price. What is almost always the problem with unsafe products in a market is the unwillingness to pay on the consumers side. Besides, if the consumer is truly upset they could easily use the courts system to handle it. Doing such will strip the business of its money and further enable the customers control while not giving any up to a third party.

As for the prices that is weak. Prices are not measured by what someone decides is fair but by what the market can handle. If there is no competition in the market at that time and people decide to buy the product at any cost then the market has decided on an acceptable price. That is all there is to it.

Now you're a man with a hardon for the constitution, yeah? then you must also realize that the real ingenious part of that piece of parchment is the checks and balances that are written into it, without thouse, it would all be worthless, it could all be easilly taken away, makes sense right?

Do you honestly think those checks and balances still exist?

Well ready your bowels for evacuation, because here comes a real chocker: The private sector? yeah, it too needs checks and balances, and for exactly the same reasons, if you want a free market, you don't ask the very people who has the least reason to protect it to be it's guardians, that's like asking a rabid Jackal to babysit your child.

I'm not fighting an unarmed man am I? The businesses wouldn't be in charge in a free market system. Saying such shows a complete lack of understanding of the system. The people that buy the products would be the only ones in the drivers seat. As for monopolies, I would challenge you now to think of a monopoly that has lasted without the governments help.
 
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Grobut

Комиссар Гробут
Oct 27, 2004
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Why speak of the devil, there's our resident naughty-stool occupant now!

Lets all observe in quiet anticipation, i'm sure he'll do something hillarious any moment now..
 

Larkin

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Apr 4, 2006
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Grobut said:
It's just not that simple Kiff, anyone who has taken on a big corporation, and their cabal of expensive lawyers, political connections and vast fortunes can attest to the difficulty of such a task, even if you are in the right, fighting a resource powerhouse like that is just not a fair fight.

This is a representation problem, not a market problem.
 

oldkawman

Master of Your Disaster
Don't like free speech eh? Burn books much? Unions have all of the same benefits too, in case

you didn't know...


wrong

wrong again. The laws, that forbid it, haven't been changed or affected by the SC ruling

This guy has all bad info. He may not know his info is bad, maybe he heard something somewhere that he likes and is simply repeating it, or perhaps he is very aware his info is wrong, but hopes others are not. You can decide for yourself.

This is a classic bait and switch tactic, an attempt to change the subject.

This is a great example of how to mislead and deceive others. Here Kiff has simply said wrong and posted a link to a news article where in June the US House passed a reform bill. Now, just because the US House passes a bill does not make it law. It's the omission of those relevant facts that makes it misleading to the uninformed and naive. For those unfamiliar with the US Constitution, the US Senate must also pass the exact same bill and then the President must sign it into law. This bill died in the US Senate. So Guess who is really wrong?

The Brooking Institute has a long record of intellectual honesty. Here is a good explanation of exactly what happened.

http://www.brookings.edu/topics/campaign-finance.aspx

Anyone can now finance any ad or commercial with any content under the guise of free speech.

The basis of the US Supreme court decision dealt with disclosure of who was financing the ad. Disclosure of who funded the ad or commercial is no longer required. That was the decision of the court. You can read the 90 page dissent in which all this is explained in detail.


http://www.law.cornell.edu/supct/html/08-205.ZX.html

--
 

kiff

That guy from Texas. Give me some Cash
Jan 19, 2008
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This guy has all bad info. He may not know his info is bad, maybe he heard something somewhere that he likes and is simply repeating it, or perhaps he is very aware his info is wrong, but hopes others are not. You can decide for yourself.
who exactly are you talking about?

oldkawman said:
This is a classic bait and switch tactic, an attempt to change the subject.

This is a great example of how to mislead and deceive others. Here Kiff has simply said wrong and posted a link to a news article where in June the US House passed a reform bill. Now, just because the US House passes a bill does not make it law. It's the omission of those relevant facts that makes it misleading to the uninformed and naive. For those unfamiliar with the US Constitution, the US Senate must also pass the exact same bill and then the President must sign it into law. This bill died in the US Senate. So Guess who is really wrong?
yea, I was wrong because I thought the senate did pass it, but don't act like I'm trying to pull a fast one please :rolleyes:

oldkawman said:
The Brooking Institute has a long record of intellectual honesty. Here is a good explanation of exactly what happened.
oh, of course...

oldkawman said:
Anyone can now finance any ad or commercial with any content under the guise of free speech.
Under the guise of free speech? Right... because you probably don't agree with "we don’t put our First Amendment rights in the hands of FEC bureaucrats". The oral arguments came down to the fact that a SC judge (forget the exact one) would have banned books (pamphlets to be exact). That's ok with you?

So, you really don't mind if a bunch of bureaucrats can ban a (pay per view) tv program just because they don't find their particular, small US based, organization worthy of the media exemption?

It's fine that nbc and msnbc (owned by GE that took stimulus money) has unlimited free speech, but a very small "corporation" doesn't?

Remember, the ruling includes corporations, unions, individuals and groups of individuals. Basically everyone has free speech. What a concept


oldkawman said:
The basis of the US Supreme court decision dealt with disclosure of who was financing the ad. Disclosure of who funded the ad or commercial is no longer required. That was the decision of the court. You can read the 90 page dissent in which all this is explained in detail.
I actually did read a lot of it earlier this year, but...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citizens_United_v._Federal_Election_Commission

The Court did uphold requirements for disclaimer and disclosure by sponsors of advertisements. The case did not involve the federal ban on direct contributions from corporations or unions to candidate campaigns or political parties.
 
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