UT2007: 11 Things Epic needs to do right.

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Dark Pulse

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I spent a half hour writing a very similar post to this at my school comps, and when I tried to post, it logged me out... so I logged back in, where it then told me the forum was invalid, so I went back and bye-bye post. Argh. It won't do it from my home comp though. ;)

So here goes.

Epic needs to make sure that they do UT2007 right, the first time, on the head if they wish to bring the two sides (Oldschool UT and the 2kx crowd) together in one perfect, harmonious game... or to baptize them in blood, depending on your barbarity. In thise rather lengthy post, I will pinpoint 10 places where Epic should make sure aren't overlooked.

1) Characters. We want Gladiators. Don't give us bipedal tanks passing off as humans. Don't give us Gorge. DO give us Mr. Crow, cause he's one of the few things good to come out of the abortion known as UT2k3. DO give us Xan. DO give us female models who look like they can fight and aren't merely in for Tits and Ass Factors. DO give the characters PERSONALITY. The fact is, in UT, you had four models and a myriad of skins, but each character had a PERSONALITY. You went through the SP ladder, and you could click each opponent and get BACKGROUND on them. It wasn't just clumps of Geneboosted Humans, or Genetic Experiments gone Awry. Make them badass killers in Armor and now we're talking. Then inject them with personality and it's perfect.

2) Necris. Keep them simple, stupid. Black and Gray, unless it's a Teamskin, obviously. No sissy emo-punk looking crap. If I want that, I can go to my mall, where a kid in a Trenchcoat with Blue Hair and Black Mascara will cry and tell me their life sucks while I can hear "Crawling" from Linkin Park blasting over their $400 iPods while they show me their arms full of failed attempts to remove themselves from the Gene Pool. Give us our Phayder, give us our Blademaidens, and keep it simple, please.

3) Character Visibility. This was no problem in UT. You could clearly see your foes across the map on CTF-Face when zoomed in, right down to their faces. You could clearly tell if they were on your side or not. In UT200x, that's IMPOSSIBLE to do unless you have Dynamic Mesh LOD set to highest - and then with the dark, murky colors it's still very tough to do. Which led to the community to create brightskins, which make me want to puke every single ****ing time I see them. Get it right, get it BRIGHT, and save us from needing more uber-1337 bull**** like this.

4) Character Scale. Assuming I'm Six Feet tall ingame, I should be roughly as high as a Scorpion, or maybe a little over it. I shouldn't be giant next to some things, but dwarfed next to others. Pick a scale and stick to it (12 UUnits was real easy - One UUnit = 1 inch. Simple!) and THEN model things around that scale, as opposed to changing the scale before the game ships, which is painfully obvious to anyone who played Beta 927.

5) Maps. The community is VERY scared here. I'll be blunt: The general consensus is your maps suck. Now without DE, you really need to step up to the plate and hit one for the Gipper here. Give us maybe 35-45 maps we can all crow over, as opposed to 85 of varying quality that will only see a third of that total in actual play a year after release. The community is talented and will take care of the rest, trust us. And if you want to release more, there's nothing wrong with Bonus Packs - UT nearly DOUBLED its map count through them, and more Bonus Packs is ALWAYS a good thing, fellas.

6) Fall Damage. OK, this is one area where the Shield Gun will be sorely missed, as I play a lot of Onslaught and this thing's saved me from probably hundereds of falls that should have killed me. But I really didn't have a choice, not like I had a parachute (Hmm, that's an interesting alternative. You listening, Epic?) or something. Anyway, let's say I fall 300 feet. This fall will kill me, but while falling and quickly seeing my life flash before my eyes, I spot an enemy combatant! I manage to steer myself right onto his head and do... 1 point of damage and then bounce off? What the ****? If I fell 300 feet in real life and landed on someone, I'd probably not only die anyway unless he broke my fall, but I'd probably also kill him. For the love of god, if you're falling, momentum should be translated to soft, fleshy targets like bodies, and maybe even light Vehicles. (If a body slams into the top of a Manta from the heavens above, I could see a nice, large dent in the frame of that Manta, along with it taking 25 or 30 points of damage...) Some people would LIVE for these kinds of frags, too, I'm sure, especially if they bounce back up a considerable distance after they hit. That'll always be good for a laugh.

7) Poly Useage. Let's not be wasteful here fellas. Poly Useage should be judicious and well-applied. What good is a 6500 Poly First-Person model of a gun if that player will only see 4500 of it on 90 FOV? Lop some off and save us a little unnecessary calculation. However, I don't think this'll be as much of a problem, as nearly everything will be tricked out 10 ways to Sunday, with Bumpmapping, Specular Mapping, Phong Shading... but don't go overboard on these either, lest the game become too "loud" for some.

8) Weapon Balancing. It's good to know UT2007 will be more "In Your Face" like UT99 was, cause let's face it, 2kx is so Hitscan dominant it's not funny. I play at our Local FragBU every week and some of the players on there (whom I'll not name; they know who they are) are so damn good at Hitscan that they can virtually shut down whole teams unless a similar player is on that team as well. I'll REFUSE to play certain maps with certain people playing simply because of this. The Shock Rifle and the Lightning Gun have become WMD's when in the hands of these people; the latter for its High ROF and relatively High Damage; the latter because it's got High Damage for regular shots, let alone the Headshot potential. Wanna fix the Shock? Keep the Damage, lower the ROF to the original UT, and voila, magically fixed, STILL EFFECTIVE shock without it being completely nerfed. Maybe the Sniper Rifle should have a cone of firing, much like the current Assault Rifle does, if it's "fired from the hip" - that is, not zoomed in, not kneeling. That will balance THAT out, while still making it a deadly weapon.

9) Headshots. A little off the beaten path here, but Headshots simply don't work quite as well as they used to. While I realize with UT it was a bit cheap and pretty easy to pop heads, in 2kx some shots that SHOULD... don't. If I shoot someone in the jaw in real life, it's probably going to incapacitate or kill them. It's not going to be like any other old body hit. Simply put, if you hit the head ANYWHERE, it should be a Headshot. Forehead = Headshot. Nose = Headshot. Ear = Headshot, though in this case if it Grazed them, I could see it doing less damage, since potentially it won't go through the brain. Simply put, if this thing touches the brain at some point, it's a Headshot. If your Physics is capable of getting people to stick to Scorpion Shears, this should be easy to do a trace to see where the bullet would go through the model. Half the fun of UT was running around and dealing death like this, a feeling that's oh-so-missed in the current installment.

10) Play Balancing. This is a tough cookie. Play Balance could make or break this game. Some people won't play Onslaught because most of the maps suck Balancewise. (ArcticStronghold, I'm looking at YOU.) Some people won't play VCTF because 1) No good maps really exist for it and 2) They thing getting run over by vehicles is a rather cheap way to get a frag. And let's not forget some of the strategies everyone worth their VCTF salt has seen, like Manta Runs. There needs to be a fine balance here between tactical options and fairness, Epic. Perhaps the Manta can be used for troop Transport, but the "Magnetic Field" or whatever of the Flag makes it impossible to do these sorts of tactics - or maybe it simply slows the Manta down, because in a case like that, unless you can get ahead of it, or have a Cicada or something in the skies, as soon as that Manta is out of your LOS, your flag is as good as capped. Unreal Warfare, which is so ****ing promising, will be CRIPPLED if it becomes exploitable like Bombing Run did. Get it right, and get it right the FIRST time. Try everything a player will do. Then try things a player probably WOULDN'T do on Intuition. Then have SOMEONE ELSE do things. A demo here before a full release would be helpful, because the Community has a knack for finding these things for you and both parties win - they get a taste of the game, you get free bug reports and valuable, precious feedback.

11) INI settings/Tweaking. I'm going to get flak for this from some of the community, I know. But I can't stand people who will have mega-powerful computers - Dual Core Processors, Dual GeForce 7800 GTXs, 2 Gigs of RAM... and then play with everything Off/Low/Minimal so they get hundereds of Frames Per Second. It's a waste of goddamn hardware. I'm a firm believer in playing with the stuff on if you can, so a small suggestion: Make some settings forced if your hardware passes a certain spec! A 7800 GTX will take almost no hit from Textures regardless of size, so force them to be at least Normal! A Athlon FX-57 should be able to play the game on damn near supreme settings, so if one of those is under the hood, don't let them turn everything off. Play with a sense of fairness if you're going to use that hardware! What happened to the days of "As long as it's over 30 FPS?" Oh wait, I know what happened: They went out the window, thanks to that pro attitude of "Win at all costs." You can bet I'm going to upgrade my system to run the stuff on High - and then you can bet I'm going to TURN it to High. Give my computer a workout, my eyes a treat, and my sense of realism shattered. Not Muddy Textures, no details, and crap visuals. If you want that, go back to Doom 1/2 or Quake 1/2.

And now I bring this long, long post to a close. I welcome any thoughts and/or feedback from my fellow forumers on this, as well as criticism, or plain old discussion. Hopefully someone from Epic will see this and consider some of these points as well.

After all, we're telling you what we want... you're the ones who are delivering it to us. How well we applaud is directly proportional to how well you satisfy the majority of the community...
 
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Rambowjo

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12) All games, but some few, use hitboxxes! Correct me if I am wrong, but I am sure, that Doom3 and CS:S use pixels. That means, that every pixel can get hit by a bullet. In games like BF2, we sometimes see how a rocket hits the air behind the tank, but it will deal damage to the tank anyway? WTF? Laggy hitboxes : /! And that sux! I am sure, that this can be avoided with pixels instead! That will also brong more realism! Like in Doom3, you could shoot dead peoples ragdoll bodies, and blood would appear where you did hit! This makes it far more realistic, because if you hit for an example a man at the ears edge, then they won't be headshotted, but only loos like 10 hp! That's far more realistic than a headshot, and it makes it a bit tougher to do an actually headshot!

You can take this as a little suggestion to humber 9 :)
 
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Rk.

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I agree on every part except where you talk about brighter skins. I don't want them to do bright skins:/
 

Dark Pulse

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Rk. said:
I agree on every part except where you talk about brighter skins. I don't want them to do bright skins:/
Neither do I, RK.

Me said:
Which led to the community to create brightskins, which make me want to puke every single ****ing time I see them. Get it right, get it BRIGHT, and save us from needing more uber-1337 bull**** like this.
By Bright, I meant Bright enough to see, like in UT - not Neon ****ing Glow Bright.
 
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I remember reading somewhere on INA (Boksha probably wrote it, of course ;) ), that you don't always get headshots in 2k4 because a headshot only does 140 damage. So, your opponent needs to be at 140 or lower in order for your headshot to actually kill them, and you to get the announcement (but you'll still do the 140 damage regardless).

Something like that.

I recall heashots were ALWAYS a kill in UT; please bring this back.
However it should require more accuracy than in UT.
________
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Rk.

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Nov 18, 2005
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Dark Pulse said:
Neither do I, RK.

By Bright, I meant Bright enough to see, like in UT - not Neon ****ing Glow Bright.
Ah, then I agree. UT had perfect brightness!
 
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Dark Pulse

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Plumb_Drumb said:
I remember reading somewhere on INA (Boksha probably wrote it, of course ;) ), that you don't always get headshots in 2k4 because a headshot only does 140 damage. So, your opponent needs to be at 140 or lower in order for your headshot to actually kill them, and you to get the announcement (but you'll still do the 140 damage regardless).

Something like that.

I recall heashots were ALWAYS a kill in UT; please bring this back.
However it should require more accuracy than in UT.
No, you still do get Headshots, you just don't get the satisfaction of Hearing and seeing "Head Shot!!" on the screen - A quick look while UTComp is running will prove this.

Headshots weren't instakills in UT, either - they did 144 Damage on Hardcore mode. You'd be able to tell when you got Headshot, because your screen would go Red and shake for about a second. No such visual indicators like in 2k4 though (Where the "Flaming Skull Trail" as I call it is a dead giveaway.)
 

briach

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Hitboxes are a must for characters, however vehicles need more detailed collision and hit volumes.

I like how the current headshot is calculated, with the headshot region of the htibox shifting whenever a character enters a new animation. But make sure that the headshot region's volume and shape is adjusted for the norm headshape the modelers will be creating for the character models. The current headshot region should be called neckshots, because of the location and volume of the headshot region on most character models. :D Also try not to make the headshot easier than it is, because if you make the consistent headshot accessible to players that are merely just experienced, then you'll have a lot of newcomers being pissed off because they can't compete against anyone else with sniper. Also if the headshot is too easy to do, you'll have to lower the damage it does, due to players not being able to shield themselves. The headshot would have to be 100 or less if it's easy to consistently use as in ut99. Balance the game for low ping 10-40.

+1 make the characters have more personality and look less :). I assume Epic is doing a good job doing that from what I observed in the ut2k7 and ue3 presentations so far, except the Malcom doesn't look badass, but I guess he's going to get owned in the next tournament so it's ok.

+1 better player scale

+1 character visibility, and less team color map advantage

I like the more complex looking Necri, show off the new engine, make the character models as awesomely detailed possible

+1 more play testing by experienced players


[edited out predictable emo ranting pertaining to min detail setting req being result of hardware. Good thread btw, DP]

Don't cap people at 60 fps like that bad game, either. Online play should be capped at 80 fps like it is now I believe, I wouldn't really know because I never get higher than 60 fps.
 
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briach

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But still, I don't think people should have to look at extra leaves and be at the disadvantage because they spent 100$ on a new vidcard. The playing field should be equal. People should be able to play with a steady 85 fps if they pay for the hardware and they should be able to adjust their settings inorder to do so. 30 fps isn't enough to play a game with skill/movement/aim based frags and a scoreboard. If there are any limitations to detail or .ini settings it should be enforced equally and without prejudice serverside.

I say someone should make a mutator for ut2k4 that forces high graphic settings, so we can all play with the added fx goodness without knowing we are at a disadvantage. I think a lot of people have upgraded by now, so there would probably be a huge playerbase for servers running a mut like that. Does anyone know if it's possible to make such a mut? Ut2k4 is an extremely pretty game with holy**** settings.
 
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Selerox

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Also, don't call it UT2007 ffs.

Agreed on everything apart from 11. 30fps sucks quite a lot. It's not as smooth as it should be, therefore, it's not as fun or easy to play. People should be able to do what the hell they like to the game graphical settings, pretty much to the level they can in UT2004. Screw what Mark Rein says. Nothing he will ever say will mean a thing.

I lower the details in UT2004 because there's too much crap in the maps. I simply can't see anything in the middle of all that detail (sounds stupid, but it can be a very annoying problem for me).

A max online fps of 100 would be nice as well. It's ok at 85 right now, but 100 would be nice for those that can get it (and for the rest of us that will be able to get it later).

Agree insanely about the maps. The community is scared about this, and I don't think Epic have quite realised how much we're dreading what the maps will turn out like. Dodgy maps helped make UT2003 the failiure it was, they had better learn the lesson very, very quickly.

One thing I think Epic need to do is stop outright blanking offers from the community to help beta-test the game. Players like lauke and evenflow have offered (in person) to beta-test UT4 for free, and gotten no response.

I have no faith whatsoever in Epic's ability to test their own game. They thought that no-one would be able to take down a raptor with a shock rifle in UT2004. Utterly wrong, as anyone who's played the game could've told them. They need to get community players (from all levels of playing experience) to play the game to destruction. They then need to listen and act on the beta test feedback.

Because nothing will sink UT4 faster than alienating the core community.
 
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Dark Pulse said:
No, you still do get Headshots, you just don't get the satisfaction of Hearing and seeing "Head Shot!!" on the screen - A quick look while UTComp is running will prove this.

Headshots weren't instakills in UT, either - they did 144 Damage on Hardcore mode. You'd be able to tell when you got Headshot, because your screen would go Red and shake for about a second. No such visual indicators like in 2k4 though (Where the "Flaming Skull Trail" as I call it is a dead giveaway.)

ah, okay.
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Vault

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speaking of headshots....i think if YOU get headshotted, instead of going third person to see your death animation, you should stay first person, and veiw it from your "broken" eyes.
 

NeoNite

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Make it an option, that would be great.

Do you prefer dying in thirdperson view, or firstperson view?

That's really something I wish UT would've had. I know, might be a nitpick but after a while, it gets a little tiresome...

Unless you get gibbed or 'headshotted', the view will shift to 3rd person.

But it's a nitpick. Maybe it would make for a good mutator.

1) Characters. We want Gladiators. Don't give us bipedal tanks passing off as humans. Don't give us Gorge. DO give us Mr. Crow, cause he's one of the few things good to come out of the abortion known as UT2k3. DO give us Xan. DO give us female models who look like they can fight and aren't merely in for Tits and Ass Factors. DO give the characters PERSONALITY. The fact is, in UT, you had four models and a myriad of skins

Four?

female commando
female soldier
male commando
male soldier
Boss
 

briach

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A better calculated and less 5 min hackish fall damage would be awsome.

Why should I take 50 damage and the person I fall on only take 6?

Also I hope they are going to implement another device to break one's fall.

People should be rewarded for going to lower ground, because lower ground leaves players more susceptible to attack, or maybe the risk with going high ground is falling so it does balance out, I guess.

RE: Epic maps suckin.

Perhaps that is because they took a half done project from someone else, so they didn't really have an understanding of the game dynamics? I'm really non certain about the history of ut2k4, I forgot how it was made, plus I haven't seen any beta versions yet so I don't know what was going on before the release. I think a lot of the bad maps were put in for the novice player's maplist, but they should have shipped the game with preset maplists of different difficulty for servers.
 
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T2A`

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6) Falling on someone does a max of 8 damage. It only does 1 when hop on somone's head.

8) I will agree that the effectiveness of hitscan compared to the other weapons is a bit ridiculous. However, instead of complaining, you could have learned it yourself rather than being so against it and just hoping it would just go away. That's what many of us did. Do you honestly think we'd rather be shooting long-distance lightning than smacking people in the head with rockets? Fact is that that's just not very effective anymore, so we sucked it up and went the logical direction the game was taking us.

If the sniper has a random cone fire I'm quitting UT. Why don't we just make every weapon fire randomly in some fashion to "balance" them out? :rolleyes: You know God-damned well anyone using a sniper will be totally f**ked if they have to zoom in and crouch to use it effectively. This is supposed to be a fast-paced reflex-based game, not a boring sniper fest. Something that might actually be useful to balance the sniper is a non-instant-hit bullet, but it still needs to fire in a predictable manner. Even if the bullet falls due to gravity, it needs to be at a constant, predictable rate.

9) Headshots are plenty effective. They're not too hard, not too easy, and you get a nice visual and/or audible reward when you pull one off. Just because you could do them in UT and not UT2004 doesn't mean anything should change about them. The problem is the screwy hitbox situation that doesn't enforce that the headbox necessarily fit the head of the model. The headbox is the same size for every model (something like 6x9 units IIRC), but it might not line up perfectly.

11) Forcing details on a player is f**king stupid and you know it, DP. There's a logical trade off and it shouldn't matter how a player makes a game look. If one guy wants low details so he can peg 85 FPS in every single situation, fine. If someone else wants lush vegetation covering every hill in an ONS map, fine. Why should you be the judge of whether or not such a thing is cheap just because you like eye-candy? That's no different than saying someone spending $50 on a good mouse and $30 on a good pad is being cheap. Should we all be forced to use the same mouse and the same hardware? No, that's why we're playing on a PC and not the X360, but by your logic this isn't the case.

In any case, most of the points you make are good, though it's the same stuff everyone's already said before you 100 times. It's getting to the point that we're beating an unborn horse. Hard.
 

briach

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If the sniper has a random cone fire I'm quitting UT.
Yeah I'd probably make a mut, if Epic does anything that bad. I don't even bother playing games where random behavior of weapons dictates match results. I don't see why so many game developers put in random bs. Keep sniper skill-based, just lower the damage, and it would be cool if there was a projectile lag to the sniper that would stop people from shooting other players across the level super easy and also allow for fast modes of transportation to close gaps to camp areas faster.

The problem is the screwy hitbox situation that doesn't enforce that the headbox necessarily fit the head of the model. The headbox is the same size for every model (something like 6x9 units IIRC), but it might not line up perfectly.
Yes. The headshot region's location in the hitbox is determined by where the neckbone is midway in the animation the character model is currently going through(better than ut2k3 in representing the headshot region) I think the headshot is fine as is. But if consistent headshots becomes more accessible to low mouse dexterity players (the large majority) then they will have to lower the damage of the headshot to compensate and stop outright hitscan domination.

Balance the game for 10-40 ping!!
 
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Israphel

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Selerox said:
Epic thought that no-one would be able to take down a raptor with a shock rifle in UT2004. Utterly wrong, as anyone who's played the game could've told them.

Seriously? Where did you hear that?
That seems incredible that they'd think that.

DP...I notice you've not mentioned player movement....probably the stickiest of sticky subjects when it comes to UT v 2kx.
I'm not going to go there either.

But I would like to see some changes to vehicle movement and physics....the way the vehicles with wheels and tracks contact the ground doesn't really feel right.
The scorpian doesn't feel as though it has any weight, it feels too "floaty"
The bender is better, but still doesn't really feel as though its actually in contact with the ground...the inertia isn't right.
Halo (crap game I know) got the vehicle physics spot on. The Hogg is great fun to drive and really feels as though its reacting to the earth...as though you're driving a bouncy 4 wheel drive. The Scorp and the Bender don't feel like fun...they spin too easily, feel too light etc.

Same is true of the Goliath. It's a great big heavy tank, but it go over uneven ground, or inclines that aren't level (up the hill in Crossfire for example) and it seems to get turned off course way too easily. Its a big tank, it should pretty much br able to go in a straight line over hillocks and mounds....not get turned round and stuck on bushes.

The physics is wrong. If I drive a tank over a cliff, it shouldn't get stuck half way down, it shouldn't get caught on edges and not be able to move. It's a big heavy tank...it should bloody fall and there should be a big noise.

Speaking of noises, the weapons should make a much much bigger noise..they sound too weak.
 
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