2nd opinion for reviews?

The Purple Bunny · Jun 19, 2004

I know we don't have that many active reviewers, and obviously not every map can get a review (that's not to say a certain group of them actually deserve one), but what about a map that does get reviewed be open for a 2nd reviewer to review? I mean, those movie critic shows always have two people reviewing it, and I'd think it'd give more insight to a map that's good, or bad.

I'm not saying it should actually be required that a map that's been reviewed get a 2nd opinion, that should be optional, but somehow I think there may be some good in it.

Hourences · Jun 19, 2004

not a bad idea imo
tho i doubt that many reviewers will actualy use it

darth_weasel · Jun 19, 2004

if you were going to have something like that i'd rather the second opinion was just a couple sentances at the bottom to add/counter/comment on something the main review missed/mentioned. it would be a waste of time if you were to do 2 normal reviews.

SeeD_already_in_use · Jun 19, 2004

Good suggestion.

And something like a quote only enabled for the map author to use would be okay, I guess. Most of them use 30 edits or so anyway to answer/flame/whatever users and their comments. That or they over-use the "Map description" info.
Maybe there should be an independent thing for author notes or sommit.

Ironblayde · Jun 19, 2004

This sounds like it could be a good idea, though as you mentioned, the low ratio of reviewers to requests would be a limiting factor. I'm also unsure as to how it would be implemented. Could a second opinion be requested for any map, by anyone, or would it just be an option for the map's author? Or would this just an option to be exercised whenever a reviewer feels it necessary, without requests coming into play? How would a second opinion score be reported, for example, in search results? Would there need to be a new column for it, or are you talking about averaging the new scores with the original review scores?

The Purple Bunny · Jun 19, 2004

The option for a 2nd opinion would be available the instant the first review is submitted. After that, it's another reviewer's choice wether to actually use it. Nothing's being forced here.

And the 2nd reviewer's score would be seperate from the first. Should be anyway in my view, so that you know that it's coming from seperate people.

Mister_Prophet · Jun 19, 2004

This kinda thing is done over at UnrealSP.org and it's a great idea.

QUALTHWAR · Jun 20, 2004

Not enough reviews get done the way it is. That energy would be better spent just doing more reviews. Besides, why 2 opinions? Why not 3 or 6 or 12? The point being, if you're trying to get a feel for the map by getting various opinions for an average, who is to say that 2 opinions make a good average? 2 is a small "sample set" by any statistical standard.

AMmayhem · Jun 20, 2004

I'm siding with Qualth on this one. Besides, it's not like reviewers can't use the comments below to voice their opinion. Maybe we could mark the comments by NC staff members to be more easily found?

Ironblayde · Jun 20, 2004

AMmayhem said:
I'm siding with Qualth on this one. Besides, it's not like reviewers can't use the comments below to voice their opinion. Maybe we could mark the comments by NC staff members to be more easily found?

Hmm... that would work too. (And it would probably be a lot less work for MassChaos. :))

It could be as simple as having NC staff members' names displayed in a different color.

MassChAoS · Jun 20, 2004

I like the last few suggestions, they're easier to do. The other idea is to be used elsewhere.

Manticore · Jun 22, 2004

Enjoy.......

...and when you have two reviews that have wildly differing opinions you can set up a server for 1 on 1's between the reviewers. Winner takes all.

Sorry I'll be serious now. Considering the number of submissions this site has it's a wonder any reviewers have time to actually enjoy the game.

So, as a user, it looks like I would probably support Qualthar's point of view.

When we get to read reviews they are pretty good. I can't remember seeing a dud or a review that both mappers and users couldn't both get something from.

That's a pretty high standard considering the work load.........

Sarevok · Jun 22, 2004

it could be interesting, but isn't the comments section basically second opinions?!

Manticore · Jun 22, 2004

Sarevok said:
it could be interesting, but isn't the comments section basically second opinions?!

I consider them to be just personal opinions myself; neither second nor first.

Anyway it's entirely up to the mapper or users as to whether they want to take any review or user comment on board.

A review is a review, but a personal opinion re: comments is something everyone is entitled to hold....

AMmayhem · Jun 22, 2004

So, our reviews aren't really our personal opinions? :con:

Manticore · Jun 22, 2004

Subjective vs. objective

Whatever.............

But I consider that reviews, if they are opinion, are a bit more informed than most comments; mine included. Generally (although there is always the odd flame) reviews have a much more objective approach than the usual user comment which is :"I don't like this, therefore it's bad, therfore it deserves a zero." (And haven't we all done that one!)

Not only do reviewers appear to be quite in touch with what's happening in the community but their opinions are informed by their technical knowledge as they appear to have a pretty good all-round knowledge of how a map was made and how it looks when put through Ued.

I'm not a mapper so stuff like frame-rates, blocking volumes etc. is stretching the limits of my knowledge base. That's where I learn from the reviews. My knowledge base is sourced from years working in audio and video so my technical approach to computing is from that angle. My subjective approach to comments is sourced from playing computer games since the '80's. (I might not know much about wireframes but I know what I like!?!?!?! That old paraphrase...)

It appears that sub-headings in reviews for build, awe etc. point to a more structured approach while most user comments are pretty "raw".

Reviews might contain opinion but, to me, they seem to be a much more formal reaction to a mapper's work. Also on this site most reviewers seem to have had some maps released at some point.

Definitley more informed, opinion or not........

Additional: Nice Samuel Adams quote.

Twrecks · Jul 9, 2004

If you want another review, there are other review sites. I too agree with Q, user comments are enough. A reviewers' time is better spent reviewing maps that haven't been reviewed here yet.
There are a lot of ppl who are mappers that make comments, don't discount them because they are not NC reviewers.

EDIT:
BTW, NC has done this "2 reviewer" thing: http://nalicity.beyondunreal.com/map_hub.php?mid=3987

Still want to do it?

MassChAoS · Jul 9, 2004

lol, yea, great example Twrecks.

Zlal · Jul 9, 2004

it's not a bad idea but not really needed
its good because if you've played a map but not got the time to take screenies or whatever you could just spend 2 mins typing something

ReD_Fist · Sep 7, 2004

still a 2 to me.

I must be the only user driving this place to become a better place.

You know,a better solution might to be a multiple choice

A. junk heap (no playablity,bad graphics,bad bot paths)
B. Getting there (graphics getting there,bad playback,bad bot pathing)
C. Worth a try (looks good,plays good,bots are still lame)
D. Let er rip (looks good,Awsome gameplay!,bots clean house)
E. Ok lets play (really good graphics,can't wait to play,bots rule,fast fps)

F can't commit (wich blocks them from a comment)
take all the choices from all the commenters and then derive a number or somthing

Or some kind of combination to ware a person like me who does not like this cbp map at all,won't get flamed,being that they all cant say junk heap ,because everyone will not agree with wich the statement line in the selction.(pre formed opinion dictated by the one you get to pick from)
There will be some that likes the way it looks,but not just post a zero etc etc
or they may think it looks great but playback sucks.

Each map has it's merits ,and I know you ALL agree with that,so mabye this would work.

Another words,if the one you pick,has A; "bad online,playing,looks good"
the guy can't go on a rant about how it looks bad,because he hates how i posted on another map the way he ddn't like.or somthing,or mabye that karma thing they use on that other site.
.

2nd opinion for reviews?

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