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Old 14th May 2004, 05:06 PM   #1
Psychomorph
 
 
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Psychomorph`s Idea for INF

I saw some documentaries today and saw the guys shouldering the weapon, but never look over the sight. If they shoulder it, they always aim with the sight, but hold both eyes open.
Ok, in training it look always perfect, but in RL battles it is all different, but I don´t know how true that is.
So, I changed my Idea a little bit (rifle and pistol handling). Now it is closer to the actual INF, but still has the general parts of my Suggestion (like the movement stuff), but more simple and comfortable.



Rifle



1a: The “low ready” position, as I described you walk normal, sprint and jump. You do not see the weapon on the screen.

2a: If you are in “low ready” and fire, the soldier raises the weapon fast (to the shoulder, since “low ready” is kinda allready shouldered) and shoot without to aim. It is kinda an emergency option, where you are so f***ed up, that you forget to aim, or have no time to aim (you know, in RL they are often such situations, it is not all training). After your fire, the weapon will automatically move, after 2 seconds, to the “low ready” position again. If you use this feature while sprinting, your speed decreases to slower run.
Logical is, that you have a very short delay before you pull the trigger and you shoot unprecisely (cuz look over the sight).
Abilities:
- normal walk
- sprint (not run, cuz the rifle is in the right position for sprinting)
- using the “firekey” you do “quickfire without to aim.
- using the “right mouse key” you aim the weapon (-> 3a)
- leaning (much more effective than “shouldered weapon lean”)
- jumping:
--taping the “forward key” and “jump” makes a short leap forward (try it yourself, all possible in reallife)
--sprint forward (runup) and “jump” makes a strong leap forward (try it yourself, all possible in reallife)
--jumping while standing can be done like in reallife (jumping up 0,5 meters high), but it´s practically useless.

3a: Press the right mouse and you shoulder AND aim the weapon.
Professionals aim, but are able to keep both eyes opened and lower the weapon for better view (4a, we are able to do that in INF, you know).
As in INF you hold the altfire key to hold breath. Would be neat to have the soldier the left eye closed (or right). From the first perspective you see the weapon model snapping little bit closer to the eye (looks bigger). That simulates your view from only one eye. The bigger sight would be better for aiming and the “freeaim” ability and mouse sensitivity should be decreased (also for better aiming).
Abilities:
- slower walk
- slower run (let´s call it fast movement during combat)
- using the “firekey” you shoot
- holding the “right mouse key” you hold breath (like INF allready is), one eye closed, better aiming ability.
- leaning (is reduced in comparison to “Normal Mode”)
- (jumping is not possible, it´s not realistic to jump if you aim a weapon)




Pistol



5a: “Low ready” position, you do not see the pistol on the screen. Can sprint, jump and so on.
6a: If you fire without to aim, the soldier raises the pistol and fire (you know emergency stuff). Unpreciselly. Looks like you look over the pistol sight, not through. After your fire, the solder move the pistol to “low ready”, after 2 sec. Again. If you use this feature while sprinting, your speed decreases to slower run.
Abilities:
- normal walk
- sprint (not run, cuz the pistol is in the right position for sprinting)
- using the “firekey” you do quickfire without to aim.
- using the “right mouse key” you aim the pistol (-> 7a)
- leaning (much more effective than “aimed lean”)
- jumping:
--taping the “forward key” and “jump” makes a short leap forward (try it yourself, all possible in reallife)
--sprint forward (runup) and “jump” makes a strong leap forward (try it yourself, all possible in reallife)
--jumping while standing can be done like in reallife (jumping up 0,5 meters high), but it´s practically useless.

7a: If you press the altfire, you aim the pistol and are able to lower the pistol to have better view (8a we are able to do that in INF, you know).
Abilities:
- slower walk
- slower run (let´s call it fast movement)
- using the “firekey” you shoot
- holding the “right mouse key” you hold breath (like INF allready is), one eye closed, you bring the pistolsight closer to the eye, for better aiming ability.
- leaning (is reduced in comparison to “Normal Mode”)
- (jumping is not possible, it´s not realistic to jump if you aim a pistol)



Sniperrifle


9a: The “low ready” position, as I described you walk normal, sprint and jump. You do not see the weapon on the screen.

10a: If you are in “low ready” and fire, the soldier raises the sniper fast to the shoulder and shoot without to aim. It is the single option, where you can fire a sniperrifle, without to aim through a scope . After your fire, the weapon will automatically move, after 2 seconds, to the “low ready” position again. If you use this feature while sprinting, your speed decreases to slower run.
Logical is, that you have a very short delay before you pull the trigger and you shoot unprecisely (cuz not aimed).
11a: Aim’n’Snipe.


Crouched Movement



12a: Normal crouch, you crouch slow (13a), but if you “run”, you run crouched (14a).


15a: Aim crouch, you crouch slow (16a), “running” gives you just a little boost while crouched move (looks same as 16a, but the movement is little bit faster).

As you see on the pics, in the "normal crouch" your stance is lower, so you have more cover, even if you run, but to shoulder and aim a rifle and to have that low stance is not possible (not if you want to use the weapon), so if you crouch, aim the weapon and move, your stance is automatically higher. That gives you less cover. Try all that yourself, not sure, but I guess it is the "most" "realistic" way .



Prone:

If you prone in “Normal Prone Mode (7)” you see the weapon on the screen (-> 7), somebody know this from Vietcong:

You can crawl. Using the “run key” you crawl faster.
If you shoulder the rifle (8) you can´t crawl, just “move” a little bit to correct your position on the ground. If you aim a rifle you can´t move.
Aiming a pistol is same as shouldering the rifle, means you can correct your position while proning, but not move.



Alt Fire Key:
Activates scopes (for example if you have the G36, it has ironsight [holding right mose key] and a scope [using the alt fire key]), grenadelaunchers and bipods.



Weapon Switch:
I think it would be a nice feature, if you would switch from rifle normal mode, to pistol normal mode, but if you have the rifle shouldered and you switch to pistol, the pistol will be aimed automatically, it´s logical in a hot firefight, kinda SWAT like.


Well, I can forget it for INF, I guess, but does anybody maybe want to make a mod?
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Last edited by Psychomorph; 27th Sep 2004 at 04:17 PM.
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Old 14th May 2004, 06:11 PM   #2
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I have always wanted a shoulder mode for scoped weapons. It would allow you to do better in CQB and you could spot sight easier because you don't have to bring the weapon back up from the hip everytime.

--You system left out hip shooting. Hip shooting seems like a viable tactic that soldiers use IRL, why did you leave it out?
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Old 14th May 2004, 07:44 PM   #3
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'Hip mode', for the most part, seems more awkward than 'shoulder firing' for most weapons.
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Old 14th May 2004, 08:04 PM   #4
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@keihaswarrior:
Exactly. For example the PSG1, maybe it´s havier than a normal rifle, but there is no problem for you to use it as a normal rifle. Sometimes, when you have no time to pull the pistol, you can just shoulder the sniperrifle and shoot, it will save your life sometime. I saw this also in the movie "Sniper", not a good one, but it has this situation.


Well you are definitely able to use the rifle Hipped, but it would look stupid with pistols

Mostly you would use the weapon shouldered, i mean it is more comfortable to handle the recoil and it is really relaxed. Mostly you have the time to raise the weapon to the shoulder, but in RL they are ever situations where you can´t control the surprise, so sometimes you would be scared as hell and you would just "rock`n`roll" hipped. If we follow my ideas we can replace the "beat with buttstock" with the "shooting hipped" thing, but it would be hard to shoot preciselly. I would prefer no hipped shooting at all cuz we all are "professionals"

Does anybody has logical arguments for having "hipped" in the game (byside what I have explained)?


@yurch:
Shouldered weapons look far more better and, most important, more professional. I think every soldier would use shouldered if he´s not crapping his pants and rocking from da hip in a to hot situation.
Maybe you have to use some weapons like an heavy MG from the hip (I saw on TV a battle in Iraq, they was an Iraqi shooting a russian heavy MG from da hip in fullauto).

Ok I will edit my Idea with a system for MG´s tomorrow.

Last edited by Psychomorph; 14th May 2004 at 08:12 PM.
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Old 14th May 2004, 11:51 PM   #5
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i remember myself having a idea .. bah foreget it , good pics btw
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Old 15th May 2004, 03:23 AM   #6
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Normally in a combat situation, you'd keep the rifle at the shoulder at all times unless you are running. So, if you think of what you call 'hipped' in-game as 'shouldered', you've got nothing to do.
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Old 15th May 2004, 03:50 AM   #7
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I like this idea overall. I could nitpick the specifics, but in general it would be a good move for INF IMO.

Most of the weapons' "aimed" mode seem to fit more in-line with this system's "shoulder" mode. An actual "aim-mode" would probably have the sights closer to the screen to look more like what the actual sight picture a soldier would see IRL.

I think less hipshooting would be a good thing anyway. I have always thought it looked rather silly to have trained soldiers doing, especially in INF.
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Old 15th May 2004, 06:14 AM   #8
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Kool, psychomorph im compltly with you on this one.
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Old 15th May 2004, 07:25 AM   #9
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Quote:
Posted by Crowze:
Normally in a combat situation, you'd keep the rifle at the shoulder at all times unless you are running.
You´re right, but if you look at pic 1 you see it is kinda shouldered, but not held straight. You hold the weapon shouldered and straight, only if you want to shoot, aim, or overall prepare for direct combat. Pic 1 is kinda passive combat posture.

Quote:
So, if you think of what you call 'hipped' in-game as 'shouldered', you've got nothing to do.
If you correct the weapon position on the 3rd person model, than you would have shouldered instead of hipped, hope the INF team will do this, but my idea is about changing that at all, cuz holding the weapon straight the whole time is kinda silly and isn´t realistic.
INF is not a fast game as UT, in UT you shoot near every second, so shouldered weapons only looks ok, but in INF you have to wait, walk, run sometimes without instant enemie contact and it would be more realistic to have the "Normal Mode".

I imagine how it would look ingame. You spawn and see soldiers holding the weapon like in "normal mode" (pic 1) (can´t exactly describe this in english words), they start to move, than, at enemie contact they shoulder the weapon, you see that someone aim and shoot, than, they "unshoulder" it again and sprint for cover.
That would be awesome, I mean it would look realistic, like you see soldiers acting during battle in RL.


@keihaswarrior:
Why exactly you want the hipped mode, can you describe (no criticism from me, I just want to know the arguments)?

As I said it´s possible to drop the "beat with buttstock" option if the weapon is unshouldered/unaimed, but implement the "hipped shooting mode". It will look ingame (by press the "fire key"), like the soldier starts to move the weapon in the hipped position from the "Normal Mode" and shoot. After that (if you stop shooting), he takes the weapon to the "Normal Mode" again. (hope the description is clear enough)


@Hurin & kehaswarrior:
Thanks a lot. I´m glad someone likes my suggestions.

Last edited by Psychomorph; 15th May 2004 at 07:30 AM.
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Old 15th May 2004, 09:56 AM   #10
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Good suggestions, Psychomorph. I'd like to see that implemented in INF.

Some additions:
- AFAIK your 'normal mode' is commonly called 'low ready' position and your 'shouldered mode' is called 'high ready' position. Correct me if I'm wrong.
- Why no low ready position for pistols (held with both hands, pointed downwards) ?
It would give you enough room to move even in tight spaces and would let you get in 'high ready' in fractions of a second. (AFAIK it's also used IRL.)
- Hip mode should be in too. Makes sense for a rushed assault. (even if I've never seen one doing this in INF)

Nice drawings BTW!
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Old 15th May 2004, 01:01 PM   #11
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Quote:
Posted by Stinkmaster:
AFAIK your 'normal mode' is commonly called 'low ready' position and your 'shouldered mode' is called 'high ready' position. Correct me if I'm wrong.
Thx, I ever searched for exact words to explain that, but I would still prefer "shouldered" and so on, so everybody can understand exactly.

Quote:
Hip mode should be in too. Makes sense for a rushed assault. (even if I've never seen one doing this in INF)
But if you just "shoulder" the rifle without to aim and "run", it is kinda rushed assault (I would say so ).


And you said what I forgot to mention. If you switch to "Normal Mode" you can have enough space in tight spaces.

Last edited by Psychomorph; 18th May 2004 at 07:20 AM.
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Old 15th May 2004, 01:03 PM   #12
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As Crowze already said, hipped is more or less the shouldered mode you are looking for. At least for 1st person. RL shouldered looks almost exactly as the standard hipped in any FPS out there, including INF. Sure the 3rd person model would need an adjustment, but only 3rd person, not 1st. Pure hip like the current 3rd person anims look like should be possible too, but the problem is that you would not be able to actually see your weapon on the screen while doing so. In RL you would see the front part of your weapon while hipped but not in a game that is limited to a flat monitor.
During the development of INF we had a shouldered mode implemented already. The weapon was more or less between the current hip and aim position and was not really needed in the first place. The implementation of the free aim area made it then totally useless and so we fully scratched the idea. Using the free aim area to move the sights down while aimed to get a better overview was enough and so another position wasn't needed anymore.
Again, hip in-game is more like shouldered in RL from 1st person... not in 3rd obviously.
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Old 15th May 2004, 01:23 PM   #13
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@Beppo:
I understand that. The "hipped" is kinda "shouldered", but sometimes it doesn´t look like that in INF. I would just correct the 3rd model a little little bit. In the first person view, you should see the weapon placed more to the middle to give the feel of "shouldered" (but not exactly the middle) and you should see more from the rearparts of the weapon. You know INF doesn´t only has to be realistic, but also look realistic (it looks good, but could be corrected, maybe as I described).
The "freeaim" while using the sight should definitely stay, ever. But that´s realistic, namely to be able to look over the sight (shouldered) and to lower the gun (aiming, but using the freeaimability with the mouse).

In general it would stay as it actually is in INF, but optically corrected. And if (I just say IF) you guys redo the ironsights a little bit, so they are more life like, that would make the weapon models (the weapon sights), while aiming, a little bit bigger (on the screen), so sometimes (like rushing) you would need the "shouldered".


Ok, long speech, but short sense... I understand you Beppo and am agreed (well never critized that part at all, just the looking).


Quote:
Posted by keihaswarrior:
I like this idea overall. I could nitpick the specifics, but in general it would be a good move for INF IMO.
You say you can nitpick some things. Go on




P.S. I edited the "Crouch Stuff" in the first post. Check it out, if you want

Last edited by Psychomorph; 15th May 2004 at 06:34 PM.
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Old 16th May 2004, 11:24 AM   #14
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very nice stuff
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Old 16th May 2004, 02:49 PM   #15
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Suggestion Nr.2 moved to the first post as final.

Last edited by Psychomorph; 18th May 2004 at 07:24 AM.
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Old 16th May 2004, 03:05 PM   #16
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All this stuff looks very interesting - I'd love to see it in a future version of INF!
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Old 16th May 2004, 05:30 PM   #17
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Neato diagrams
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Old 17th May 2004, 09:34 AM   #18
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Belongs to first Suggestion

Sorry if I bomb yo up with my stuff, but the pics above weren´t enough for me, to sense how that would look in INF. Now that is as close as I am able to do (As real as it gets ):



low ready:
- You walk normal, sprint, jump, lean.

low ready & fire:
- If you start to fire, the soldier raises his weapon and shoots wihtout to aim with the sight.
- If done while sprinting, your running speed decreases hard.

aim:
- You walk slower, you can only run, lean is reduced, you can`t jump.
Pushing the right mose, the soldier is shouldering and aiming the weapon.
- Both eyes opened, so better view/fov.
- Free aim as in actual INF (maybe not that hard).

aim & holding right mose key:
- You can only walk very slow, can lean and duck, can´t jump.
- The soldier is closing one eye, holding the breath and brings the sight closer to the eye.
- No freeaim, cuz the head and weapon become kinda one part.
- Reduced mouse sensitivity.
p.s.
I would prefer to have a little little zoom while "aim & holding right mose", cuz that would simulate the reduced view with one eye and would be better for shooting on long distances.
That wouldn´t be a zoom at all, it happens instantly. You can observe similar thing if you close one eye (not the zoom, but that something changes in you view).
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Old 17th May 2004, 10:16 AM   #19
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I have to say, this is probably the best presented idea I've ever seen on these forums. Very easy to understand. If it ever makes it into Infiltration remains to be seen, but you argue your points very well.

It's still very early in the process and it's a bit too early to say if it's going to be implemented or discarded, just like every other ideas presented and discussed on this forum. A lot of the ideas around here are are good, some are bad and a small minority are just crap. Every idea can't be implemented, but this one is certainly worth a debate sometime during the dev. process, depending on what direction everything takes. But that's just my opinion. As usual, there are about the same amount of opinions as there are people here and mine doesn't really carry any weight
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Old 17th May 2004, 10:36 AM   #20
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Thx.

I started with the pics, cuz words are to weak to give a real image how that would be in the game.

I don´t really expect to see it in INF, but I hope so. I had this idea a longtime ago, but never posted it, cuz I didn´t thought it would make any sense.
Don´t know why I posted that (was confused ). But maybe some parts of this idea are usefull. Who knows, maybe somone want´s to make a mod (but I want it for INF), or mutator (would be too complicated I guess).

The general problem with this Suggestion is, that it is too huge. I mean if ppl say "plz make Desert Eagle skin black!" it is no prob to implement it in the game. Some small suggestions can be implemented too, but that stuff I´ve made... I´m not part of the Infiltration team, so I can nearly forget to see this in INF
I would love to play a game with those features, I dream of that, but I have no clue making mods and similar things, and that makes me sad, mad ->

So, I expect nothing... not really.


P.S. I ask myself, if they will be a big suggestion in this forums and "everybody" would like to have it ingame, hmm, what would the INF team do?

Last edited by Psychomorph; 17th May 2004 at 10:38 AM.
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