XM177 and M4
- Thread starter cleve-ntt
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No and no 
XM177 = 11.5" barrelled hollow sliding stock (the Model 607 has a different kind of sliding stock) SMG/carbine (it's rifle caliber so technically it's not an SMG. OTOH, it wouldn't be useful at ranges much longer than that of a decent SMG with a tiny barrel like that and it listed as an SMG in the Colt catalogue AFAIK) variant of original M16. I think the E1 and E2 enhancements add stuff like forward assist and possibly change the flash hider around.
M4 = 14.5" barrelled hollow sliding stock carbine variant of M16A2 (complete with different sights, forward assist, different trigger group etc.)
Generally M4 means fixed carrying handle sight and burst trigger group. Watching TV footage of the Gulf War it looks like Aimpoints and the like are starting to filter down to none-specfor units so I guess they have retrofitted some burst M4's with flattie recievers to mount these.
AR15 = The rifle before the M16. I think the Army bought some for testing and the Navy bought a batch for their newly formed SEALs. I think even the original M16 had some changes from the AR15's (something to do with the twist of the rifling).
XM177 = 11.5" barrelled hollow sliding stock (the Model 607 has a different kind of sliding stock) SMG/carbine (it's rifle caliber so technically it's not an SMG. OTOH, it wouldn't be useful at ranges much longer than that of a decent SMG with a tiny barrel like that and it listed as an SMG in the Colt catalogue AFAIK) variant of original M16. I think the E1 and E2 enhancements add stuff like forward assist and possibly change the flash hider around.
M4 = 14.5" barrelled hollow sliding stock carbine variant of M16A2 (complete with different sights, forward assist, different trigger group etc.)
Generally M4 means fixed carrying handle sight and burst trigger group. Watching TV footage of the Gulf War it looks like Aimpoints and the like are starting to filter down to none-specfor units so I guess they have retrofitted some burst M4's with flattie recievers to mount these.
AR15 = The rifle before the M16. I think the Army bought some for testing and the Navy bought a batch for their newly formed SEALs. I think even the original M16 had some changes from the AR15's (something to do with the twist of the rifling).
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spm1138 said:No and no
XM177 = 11.5" barrelled hollow sliding stock (the Model 607 has a different kind of sliding stock) SMG/carbine (it's rifle caliber so technically it's not an SMG. OTOH, it wouldn't be useful at ranges much longer than that of a decent SMG with a tiny barrel like that and it listed as an SMG in the Colt catalogue AFAIK) variant of original M16. I think the E1 and E2 enhancements add stuff like forward assist and possibly change the flash hider around.
M4 = 14.5" barrelled hollow sliding stock carbine variant of M16A2 (complete with different sights, forward assist, different trigger group etc.)
ecale3
Sniper - May be harmful to your health.
XM177 is fixed carrying handle, M4 and M4A1 are both removable carrying handle. M4 is safe/semi/burst, M4A1 is safe/semi/auto.
IIRC the differences between the AR-15 and the original M16 are, AR15 was made out of bakelite (i think that is what it was called) and was extremely flimsy and broke often, and the M16 has a tighter rifling or something.
IIRC the differences between the AR-15 and the original M16 are, AR15 was made out of bakelite (i think that is what it was called) and was extremely flimsy and broke often, and the M16 has a tighter rifling or something.
XM177 was a commando weapon wasnt it? but heres a link http://dboy.cpgl.net/USA/M16/xm177.htm its in chinese, so i think ill translate some of it:
[translation]it was first made in 1965, with a 10 inch barrel. originally designated model 609, model 610A and model 610B by colt. because of its shortness, it produces lots of noise and recoil. this is why the rifle sports a 89mm flash hider. [/translation]
the M4 is a different story....... read http://world.guns.ru/assault/as17-e.htm .
[translation]it was first made in 1965, with a 10 inch barrel. originally designated model 609, model 610A and model 610B by colt. because of its shortness, it produces lots of noise and recoil. this is why the rifle sports a 89mm flash hider. [/translation]
the M4 is a different story....... read http://world.guns.ru/assault/as17-e.htm .
Don't forget about the M733, basically a M4 with a 11.5 I believe it was barrel (maybe it was 10.5, I forget). The Delta Force guys in the mission of Blackhawk down were using M733s, don't remember if the movie had them correctly armed or not though...
These are all AR15/M16 variants though, which further confuses the issue since many refer to the AR15 as the original early M16 prototype stuff, but Colt, Bushmaster and several others still sell new rifles in the civilian world collectively still known as AR15s that have all the advances of the M16 military family...
These are all AR15/M16 variants though, which further confuses the issue since many refer to the AR15 as the original early M16 prototype stuff, but Colt, Bushmaster and several others still sell new rifles in the civilian world collectively still known as AR15s that have all the advances of the M16 military family...
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http://gunlover.8m.com/custom4.html
There's a little short history for you.
And this actually has a lot better history and comparison of the CAR15 to the XM177:
http://www.mst2-vietnam.info/Stoner_ordnance_notes/XM_177.htm
There's a little short history for you.
And this actually has a lot better history and comparison of the CAR15 to the XM177:
http://www.mst2-vietnam.info/Stoner_ordnance_notes/XM_177.htm
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Here's the basic answer to your question about the XM177 vs M4/M4A1.:
The XM177 is essentially a later variant of the Car 15 (aka Colt Commando). The Car 15 was the first shortened version of the M16, made durring vietnam, and originally had a 10 inch barrel. With such a short barrel, it proved to have gigantic muzzel flash and piss-poor accuracy, so they fitted it with a special flash hider which brought the total barrel length to 11.5 inches, which solved much of its problems.
The M4 was made durring the 90's and has a 14 inch barrel. This may not seem like much of a difference, but relatively speaking it is much longer than the Car 15 barrel. If you look at 2 pictures side by side you will notice the difference. The barrel of the Car 15 ends almost immediately at the end of the hand gaurd. On the M4, the barrel is still not extremely long, but it still extends far past the hand gaurd.
By the way, if you were wondering, the M16 has a 22 inch barrel.
I'm no expert, and I probably missed a lot of detailed, but this should help you get the general idea.
The XM177 is essentially a later variant of the Car 15 (aka Colt Commando). The Car 15 was the first shortened version of the M16, made durring vietnam, and originally had a 10 inch barrel. With such a short barrel, it proved to have gigantic muzzel flash and piss-poor accuracy, so they fitted it with a special flash hider which brought the total barrel length to 11.5 inches, which solved much of its problems.
The M4 was made durring the 90's and has a 14 inch barrel. This may not seem like much of a difference, but relatively speaking it is much longer than the Car 15 barrel. If you look at 2 pictures side by side you will notice the difference. The barrel of the Car 15 ends almost immediately at the end of the hand gaurd. On the M4, the barrel is still not extremely long, but it still extends far past the hand gaurd.
By the way, if you were wondering, the M16 has a 22 inch barrel.
I'm no expert, and I probably missed a lot of detailed, but this should help you get the general idea.
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The M16A2 has a 20 inch barrel AFAIK.
Interestingly enough, there was a Colt 727 carbine made in the 1980s for the US Navy (mainly for the SEALs) that was exactly the same as the M4 carbine except it had a fixed carrying handle and the narrower handguards, not the oval M4A1 style handguards.
Interestingly enough, there was a Colt 727 carbine made in the 1980s for the US Navy (mainly for the SEALs) that was exactly the same as the M4 carbine except it had a fixed carrying handle and the narrower handguards, not the oval M4A1 style handguards.
Hay! you found the princess! WRANG! she is in another house! go away!
[SARCASM]Im sure everyone i have seen at fort knox with a M4A1 with a safe/semi/burst group went out and bought a fixed carry handle reciever. Since it's oh so much more modular![/SARCASM]
the M4 and M4A1 are both flat tops ... if you see an M4 with a carry handle, it is one of these
which many many people put on their flat tops because without it you have no rear sight so if you don't have a red dot sight or scope, you need either a detachable carry handle (or spend a little more and get a flip up rear sight)
M16, M4, XM177 et al are all variants of the AR15 developed by Eugine Stoner at Armalite in the late 50s
the whole story:
http://www.ar15.com/content/history/birth.html
the evolution of the AR15:
http://www.ar15.com/content/history/evolution.html
Most military AR15s are either 20" or 14.5" barrelled rifles ... although they also come in other lengths (mine is a 16" stainless steel barreled rifle made by Rock River Arms, with an A2 style upper).
which many many people put on their flat tops because without it you have no rear sight so if you don't have a red dot sight or scope, you need either a detachable carry handle (or spend a little more and get a flip up rear sight)
M16, M4, XM177 et al are all variants of the AR15 developed by Eugine Stoner at Armalite in the late 50s
the whole story:
http://www.ar15.com/content/history/birth.html
the evolution of the AR15:
http://www.ar15.com/content/history/evolution.html
Most military AR15s are either 20" or 14.5" barrelled rifles ... although they also come in other lengths (mine is a 16" stainless steel barreled rifle made by Rock River Arms, with an A2 style upper).
According to the book, the Delta Force and Rangers in Blackhawk down where issued CAR-15 rifles (CAR means Colt Accurized Rifle) which are basicaly Colts version of the M4A1 only with the fixed handle (BTW, another name for the CAR-15 is the XM-177 ... I believe they are called XM-177 when they are built by Bushmaster, but I could be wrong) although a couple of the Delta guys carried M14s (Delta gets to carry whatever they want)
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