Same Sex...Marriage

[Leo(T.C.K.)]

Benfica,

You seems to have a strong opinion about all of this. Do you have any personal experience or other insight you want to share with the class? My only curiosity besides your answer to that question is other's opinions about what percentage of people who are gay were born possibly leaning that way as compared to what percentage of gay people are gay due to their environment. I'll poke this conversation with this statement: I think that there are certainly people who are born being "more apt" to end up gay than others. I'll go a step further too and say I think many people are gay only because of the environment they were raised in. Chew on that folks and then reply with your opinion to my opinion. Go!

Really? I know of a guy who was raised in pretty homophobic area, yet he is gay, but he does have complex of being worthless and thinking it's wrong to have such desires.
Having an opinion on something without really knowing anyone who's like that is kinda easy. You simply cannot really understand. But to not speak only of others, I am myself bisexual and I did often get aroused by both and girls when I was growing up, but I actually didn't connect it to anything at the time, apart that I masturbated early, but when I first fell in love with a boy who I never told it to, I did feel wrong at the time for having those feelings. Funny that my mind didn't connect it together and that was before anything was taught in school more, until I was teen basically I didn't know much about the stuff. So in the end I did grew up in restrictive environment kind of but that didn't change my desires and ability to fall in love with either or any gender basically. And I wasn't really sexually active (apart with myself, lol) for a long time until very recently. Speaking from my own perspective, the environment I grew up in had no effect and nobody from my family that I know of was homosexual or
bisexual, maybe some secretly and stuff and I don't know much from my father's side etc, but still. I kept it secret for a very long time though, didn't tell about anyone until I was 17(no kidding).

 

[Jacks:Revenge]

Two men adopting children? No way. It's an embarrasement for a kid to be raised by a gay couple.

it's an embarrassment for the child?
says who? you ever talked to one? something tells me you haven't...

there are (at least) hundreds of thousands (if not millions) of children being raised in homosexual households around the world. have you ever stopped and asked those children if they're embarrassed of their parents? or are you just pulling this information out of your ass? lemme guess; it's coming straight from your ass

the kid will tend to be mocked in school, feel ashamed, etc...

they might be mocked a little when they're young. we're talking elementary and primary school. but even then, most kids today don't care about that kind of stuff. if you're going to be bullied, it will likely be for completely different reasons than simply having gay parents. it won't be much more of an issue than anything else you could be bullied for.
besides, if we outlawed everything on Earth that caused some kids to be mocked in school, then gay marriage would be the least of our concerns...

also, who says that the child will "feel ashamed?"
once again I have to ask; have you personally interviewed these kids? have you surveyed a statistically significant sample of children being raised by gay parents? how do you know they're ashamed of anything?

your baseless assumptions make you look petty and ignorant.

some gay parents will attempt to model the kid to have the same gay lifestyle

no they won't.
are you retarded??

there's not a single shred of evidence to support this statement.
gay parents of adopted/surrogate children do not push their homosexuality on the child. that is not why they wanted to become parents. that's an absurd thing to assume and (once again) displays your deep ignorance regarding this issue.

what a ridiculous thing to say.

1) there's the risk that gay parents will try to induce the lifestyle and sexual preferences
2) there's the risk that kids will be mocked and ashamed for extra reasons, but that's no big deal either!

It's not a big deal? Says you. Adoption institutions, psychologists and political parties think otherwise.

ugh... you're an idiot.
but please, allow me to explain why.

adoption institutions have nothing against homosexual couples unless the institution in question is explicitly religious. aside from that, adoption institutions routinely grant adoptive custody to gay couples. they usually have no problem with this. the only time that gay couples have trouble adopting is when they attempt to do so in a state whose government has specifically tried to make it difficult for gays to adopt.

it's not the institution that frowns on them, it's their own government who the institution relies on for federal funding.

also, there is no credible psychologist that frowns on gay adoption.
unless the psychologist in question has an ulterior agenda, he cannot disagree with the science. because the research is there; it's been ongoing for at least 30 years now - several generations of gay adoption/surrogacy - and the conclusion is very clear. being raised by gay parents does not adversely affect the mental or emotional well-being of the child in question.

as long as the gay couple itself is happy and loving, there is no psychologist on Earth who will tell that gay adoption is traumatic or harmful. if you find a psychologist who makes such a claim, odds are that he is just on the payroll of some Conservative 'family values' PAC.

Perhaps you aren't considering what matters in an adoption. Only the "point of view" of the child is relevant, only the child's best interest matters. An adopted child is not a toy for someone to inflate their egos.

What I am sure is that it's not for the child to have the burden of being an activist, to change the world or fighting a sociological battle.

do you hear yourself??

you are the person who is not considering the views of the child.
but you're trying to tell other people to do the same?

my god you reek of hypocrisy.
you are the guy who is making up callous assumptions about how the children of gay parents must feel, despite the fact that you've never personally interviewed any of them.

gay couples do not adopt on the basis of creating little gay activists.
they do not "burden" their children with fighting any social battles. they don't care if their children get involved in gay rights or not. they just want to be parents and raise happy / healthy families like anyone else.

but go ahead. tell me otherwise.
tell me how you know so much better...

 

[cryptophreak]

1) If straight parents have risky lifestyles and try to push them, they should be banned from adopting.

I'm trying to figure out how this applies. Do you mean to imply that homosexuality is risky? If so, how?

2) If there's a country or region where there's a lot of social pressure regarding racism or other form of discrimination, then the adoption by a minoritary couple may even be risky too. It's hard to say, even more because your example is far fetched. What I am sure is that it's not for the child to have the burden of being an activist, to change the world or fighting a sociological battle.

This sounded silly to me at first, but perhaps I neglected to consider that my area is more accepting of various sorts than others. There are still parts of the world in which homosexuality will earn one a stoning, for example. I don't know where you live, so I couldn't know the prevailing attitude toward homosexuality there. In Austin you're more likely to be ostracised for denigrating a gay person than for being one.

 

[Benfica]

Jacks, your lenghty ad hominem garbage is obviously to be ignored. If you can't argue in other way, you are left to argue alone.

Actually fuck this shit. This is one of the topics that I LEAST care about!

 

[Mister_Prophet]

Kids get made fun of at school for lots of things. Kids are stupid. You don't have to have two dads for kids to call you a fag. They will call you gay and beat you up if the hat you wore that day is weird or if you say a word they didn't understand.

I don't vote so my own opinion is that my opinion doesn't matter, legally and socially. But in the spirit of sharing, here is what I think. Simply believing something or even having a strong feeling on an issue doesn't mean that what I think is the right way to live is good enough for everyone. You wanna have kids, well, might be a good idea to at least think about getting married, but that ain't my business. You don't have to even do it till you die, even a couple of decades is okay. That's what my folks did. You wanna get married but not have kids, well that's up to you also. Now I ask you. If you are someone who is okay with the above, what changes in those scenarios if the consenting adults both have dongs? Consider your answer and if you still believe it's good enough to have bearing in the laws of the land then vote or write your senator.

Otherwise, shut up and stop being a fag.

 

[Jacks:Revenge]

Jacks, your lenghty ad hominem garbage is obviously to be ignored. If you can't argue in other way, you are left to argue alone.

Actually fuck this shit. This is one of the topics that I LEAST care about!

look you're the jackass who is arguing against same sex marriage. you made like 5 posts about it.
but the only person holding any garbage here is you, I'm afraid.

if you want to ignore the completely legitimate and entirely reasonable counterpoints I offered simply because they were offered in the form of a "fuck your senseless bigotry," then that's your prerogative. my tone of voice doesn't change the facts that I provided you. they're still the facts: gays don't push their lifestyle on their children. there's no psychological research to support the notion that adopted children of gay couples have any mental problems.

those are the facts whether you like it or not.
and you can ignore them just because I wrapped them up in a bitter pill, but it won't change the fact that you're a moron who cannot come up with a good reason to support your own bigotry.

 

[cryptophreak]

I've given this a little more thought, Benefica, and I think your arguments are fundamentally motivated by distaste for homosexuals and not concern for children. Each of the supposed pitfalls you outline apply equally to straight parents, but for gay people they are somehow unforgivable.

my tone of voice doesn't change the facts that I provided you.

I'll be stealing this in the future.

 

[Razorjack]

I am 100% against same sex marriage, don't even get me started on gay couples raising kids.

It's so against nature, how the fuck did it ever come so far?!

To make matters worse, I believe my country was actually the first in the world to allow for fags to get married, and to have children.

 

[Vaskadar]

I am 100% against same sex marriage, don't even get me started on gay couples raising kids.

It's so against nature, how the fuck did it ever come so far?!

To make matters worse, I believe my country was actually the first in the world to allow for fags to get married, and to have children.

You're either trolling or ignorant, and if that's the case, definitely intolerant. Why the fuck does it matter what someone else does? It doesn't harm you physically or take money out of your bank account. Chill bro. People need to stop giving a fuck about what someone does if it doesn't interfere with their lives. "Oh, I don't like that two women or two men are holding hands at a restaurant across from me!" get over it you sociopath. I find homosexuality disgusting, personally, but don't give a damn if it's someone else, and since I'm not involved why get in the way of other people's lives? You're a stain on the underwear of society if that's what you truly believe.

 

[Benfica]

I've given this a little more thought, Benefica, and I think your arguments are fundamentally motivated by distaste for homosexuals and not concern for children. Each of the supposed pitfalls you outline apply equally to straight parents, but for gay people they are somehow unforgivable.

You'd be wrong, since I have no reason to distaste harmless people. I distaste criminals. Gays tend to be friendly and it's nice that they have the opportunity to marry if they so wish, actually it's not of my business to be against that.

The mindset of an adoption is different. The kid starts integrated in a adoption home where he hopefully is provided for, taken care for, loved. Giving a kid for an adoption must be a well thought out process.

Of course some of the pitfalls apply to straight parents, if they are unable to provide for the kid or are unstable or have abusive behaviour. Then they should not be allowed to adopt.

I'll say it again: the well being of a kid is the most important factor in adoption, not the parents wishes. If there is no problem with gay adoption (so my views and of some psycologists, institutions and political parties are wrong), gay couples must PROVE that it is so, not just saying so plenty of times with the hope that it is true, starting lobbying campaigns or have hysterical gay rights advocates.

 

[Bi()ha2arD]

It's so against nature, how the fuck did it ever come so far?!

You do realise homosexuality is really common in animals, right?

 

[[GU]elmur_fud]

You do realise homosexuality is really common in animals, right?

Not a contradiction but more of a clarification to that statement... I looked into that after the last time that comment was made and found it was partially false. Homosexual behavior is common yes but not for an animal to be strictly homosexual. In other words animals tend to be more sexually opportunistic gender/species/object not withstanding. There are some documented cases of animals that have a homosexual preference, yes but it is far from common. Were-as for an animal to engage in a homosexual act is very common. Many people brush the latter here off as 'gender confusion' but most articles of any scientific Merritt summed it up as an intentional sexual act with no concern for gender.

 

[Leo(T.C.K.)]

Interesting for someone to say that coming from .nl. Then again in my experience things have became worse in .nl, people started to be xenophobic due to the politicians spreading the fear for the foreigners etc and the class difference is getting too big, they all promise you shit when you come over and nothing really happens and suddenly you are not applicable or suitable for something. They get paranoid when you bring them letter and speak english, because they think you might have a bomb, etc etc.
But in the end they tend to care just about themselves and pay no attention what's going in the surroundings. In that sense it's a bit extreme and they think that Czech is eastern europe, anyone who I asked. But suddenly Austria is western even though it's just below czech. Corporations took over everything, from health insurances and great system that obviously worked from what I've seen into incredible mess and the companies trying to pull frauds where it can be good. Even post offices don't exist anymore, you have to send out mail in small shops selling magazines and other stuff. There are chipcards users everywhere. When the same technology was introduced in czech people got aware of its insecurities and everything. But in .nl they just blindly accept it and use it for about everything, including garbage bins at some places. They think they are western and wordly as hell and liberal. They don't even know the sense of that word though. I can go on and on and on. I have a lot more to say but I won't right
now. Because in the end it would be probably considered for someone like Razorjack an attack from my side. Maybe he's aware of all those things, but he's yet another extreme example. But maybe he lives in one of those heavily religious more secluded areas, there are few like that in .nl as far as i know, some formerly islands. Or maybe not, who cares anyway.

I wanted to reply to Prophet's post also, to get back on topic. I think your post was right on the spot. I remember in first grade of what is called "primary school" in english, I was called a fag when I didn't use a fly at my jeans at the toilet, believe that was first or second day in the school ever, ever since i used the fly instead. And that kid in particular must have been maximally 2 years older than me at the time. I don't think that particular experience left me scarred or anything, I didn't really care that much I guess, it did hurt me, but I got over it quickly and tried to avoid this kind of situation happening again. This kind of mocking happens about everywhere though, especially at areas where there's more criminality and stuff. I never actually was down from any mocking like that though not until when I changed schools at the "secondary school" phase and encountered some school gangs which gave me 100 percent harder time than any of the simple mocking i've encountered before or anything else.
But it had nothing to do with me being raised by someone or not and they knew nothing about my real sexuailty either although perhaps if they knew they would be harder on me, but perhaps not because they would find 1000 other reasons, because I had better grades than them and wasn't following their shit and mindsets so I was unwanted by most of the class, while the gang leader had influence on them all although tht doesn't mean most of the class were in the gang to begin with, it just means that they made the others hate me as well and mock me in the process, while the gang (who was spread across multiple classes and even to the ex students who were already at high school and controling it), did the harder stuff.
Besides at the time I was about exclusively heterosexual and repressed about everything from my "other side". Yet I had a hard time, which also among other things ended up in me being poisoned by one of the gang members when I became too difficult for them to handle. That kind of stuff scarred me, not any kind of bullshit calling fag mocking and it would hardly make no damn difference if I was by any chance raised by gay parents, but I wasn't anyway.

 

[Gir]

.. like a same-sex machine.

 

[cryptophreak]

If there is no problem with gay adoption [...] gay couples must PROVE that it is so

It seems to me that the onus is upon you to demonstrate why homosexual parents deserve extraordinary scrutiny, or else they should be afforded the same adoption opportunities by default. Why was their fitness ever in question? And how would they pass your fitness test, which appears to have no clearly defined success criteria? Your inability to articulate a credible threat to children and preference for a default ban makes me surer by the minute that unfounded prejudice and not reason is the basis for your position.

 

[Selerox]

Not acceptable.

I am 100% against same sex marriage, don't even get me started on gay couples raising kids.

It's so against nature, how the fuck did it ever come so far?!

To make matters worse, I believe my country was actually the first in the world to allow for fags to get married, and to have children.

You know what depresses me? Nothing to do with this issue (although I do care about it), but to do with these forums.

Not too long ago that post would have got you banned. Or at the very least read-only. No longer it seems.

 

[Hadmar]

It's so against nature

Apart from the fact that this is plain wrong, we are humans. We don't give a fuck about nature.

 

[Benfica]

It seems to me that the onus is upon you to demonstrate why homosexual parents deserve extraordinary scrutiny, or else they should be afforded the same adoption opportunities by default. Why was their fitness ever in question? And how would they pass your fitness test, which appears to have no clearly defined success criteria? Your inability to articulate a credible threat to children and preference for a default ban makes me surer by the minute that unfounded prejudice and not reason is the basis for your position.

It seems to me that you can't get beyond the preconceived idea that if anyone opposes _anything_ regarding gays, that person is automatically intolerant. I just wished that women and children had this kind of robust and automatic advocacy.

Again:
1) Gay couples have an hard time to prevent their kids from being influenced by their choice of sexual life. Ok, this is debatable.
2) Children of gay couples are more prone to be mocked and harassed. Only a fool would argue this point.
And 3) Allowing a couple of males to adopt a child, leads that the child is raised without a mother. Tell me that this is irrelevant...

If you Google or investigate, there are more reasons pro and against gay adoption. See for yourself. Note that I'm not talking about gay people be allowed to be biological parents or live with their kids, rather the reasons for a couple of gay males to be not chosen by an adoption agency. If you prefer to say I'm prejudiced because I think that one has to have more caution with children, children are more vulnerable and more worthy of be defended than adults, so be it.

 

[shadow_dragon]

So what I'm learning from this thread is that kids are apparently better off homeless than with parents who are having the "wrong" kind of relationship...

I guess it makes sense, you guys must've had the healthiest of sexual relationships with your parents to determine the preference right?

 

[Benfica]

You know what depresses me? Nothing to do with this issue (although I do care about it), but to do with these forums.

Not too long ago that post would have got you banned. Or at the very least read-only. No longer it seems.

It's a tad depressive yes, but people don't get banned for calling women "bitches" or worse, so I don't see why other kind of similar rhetoric would warrant a ban.