ACORN is at it again.(Investigation underway)

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_Zd_Phoenix_

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And you sir are missing the point. ACORN as a whole is responsible for the operations of their local chapters and those who work for those chapters. Period.
Saying period after something has never justified a point.

The entire point of my post was that there is no evidence that the organisation itself is corrupt - the idea that they can stop all individuals under them from doing things wrong is absurd and unprecedented. As for chapters, if you could show me the evidence against them in context, that would be helpful, because I can't find any outside of wildly biased blogs.

The prison example has nothing to do with voter fraud.
While it is true that these registration forms are verified by local officials, who knows what other games are at play in the local Government offices.
It is certainly odd and unhealthy that the parties be allowed to run the process.
 

Crotale

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Saying period after something has never justified a point.

The entire point of my post was that there is no evidence that the organisation itself is corrupt - the idea that they can stop all individuals under them from doing things wrong is absurd and unprecedented. As for chapters, if you could show me the evidence against them in context, that would be helpful, because I can't find any outside of wildly biased blogs.

The prison example has nothing to do with voter fraud.

It is certainly odd and unhealthy that the parties be allowed to run the process.
Link
Link

Sure, it's easy to say that the fraudulent registrations will not make their way to the voting booths, but it shows a trend within the organization. Include the illegal use of inmates to do some of the dirty work and one can see a much bigger part of a not so nice picture. Sure, it is doubtful this will have any real affect on the election, but it still reflects a dangerous attitude on the part of ACORN in general since this is nothing new with their organization and they don't appear to really give enough of a crap to fix the problem internally. What pisses me off is that they continue to receive taxpayer funding.

Btw, last I heard, it IS a company or organization's overhead responsibility to be held accountable for their local chapters' actions. If not, then they should remove themselves from any and all affiliation with said local chapters.
 

Iron Archer

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http://www.nypost.com/seven/10102008/news/politics/1_voter__72_registrations_132965.htm
CLEVELAND - A man at the center of a voter-registration scandal told The Post yesterday he was given cash and cigarettes by aggressive ACORN activists in exchange for registering an astonishing 72 times, in apparent violation of Ohio laws.

081010-vote-fraud.jpg

"Sometimes, they come up and bribe me with a cigarette, or they'll give me a dollar to sign up," said Freddie Johnson, 19, who filled out 72 separate voter-registration cards over an 18-month period at the behest of the left-leaning Association of Community Organizations for Reform Now.

"The ACORN people are everywhere, looking to sign people up. I tell them I am already registered. The girl said, 'You are?' I say, 'Yup,' and then they say, 'Can you just sign up again?' " he said.

Johnson used the same information on all of his registration cards, and officials say they usually catch and toss out duplicate registrations. But the practice sparks fear that some multiple registrants could provide different information and vote more than once by absentee ballot.

ACORN is under investigation in Ohio and at least eight other states - including Missouri, where the FBI said it's planning to look into potential voter fraud - for over-the-top efforts to get as many names as possible on the voter rolls regardless of whether a person is registered or eligible.

It's even under investigation in Bridgeport, Conn., for allegedly registering a 7-year-old girl to vote, according to the State Elections Enforcement Commission.

Meanwhile, a federal judge yesterday ordered Ohio's Secretary of State to verify the identity of newly registered voters by matching them with other government documents. The order was in response to a Republican lawsuit unrelated to the ACORN probe in Cuyahoga County, in which at least three people, including Johnson, have been subpoenaed.

Bribing citizens with gifts, property or anything of value is a fourth-degree felony in Ohio, punishable by up to 18 months in prison. And it's a fifth-degree felony - punishable by 12 months in jail - for a person to pay "compensation on a fee-per-registration" system when signing up someone to vote.

Johnson, who works at a cellphone kiosk in downtown Cleveland, said he was a sitting duck for the signature hunters, but was always happy to help them out in exchange for a smoke or a little scratch. He'd collected 10 to 20 cigarettes and anywhere from $10 to $15, he said.

The Cleveland voting probe, first reported by The Post yesterday, also focused on Lateala Goins, who said she put her name on multiple voter registrations. She guessed ACORN canvassers then put fake addresses on them. "You can tell them you're registered as many times as you want - they do not care," she said.

ACORN spokesman Kris Harsh said the group does not tolerate its workers paying people to sign the voter-registration cards.

ACORN's political wing has endorsed Barack Obama for president, but Ben LaBolt, a spokesman for the Obama campaign in Ohio, said ACORN has no role in its get-out-the-vote drive.

During the primary season, however, the Obama camp paid another group, Citizen Service Inc., $832,598 for various political services, according to Federal Elections Commission filings. That group and ACORN share the same board of directors.

In Wisconsin yesterday, John McCain blasted ACORN.

"No one should be corrupting the most precious right we have, that is the right to vote," he said.

It's a right Johnson will exercise. "Yeah, I've registered enough - I might as well vote."
 

Zur

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And you call that democracy ? Well, as some people here have told me in the past, it's none of my business since I'm from "elsewhere". But don't come complaining if the wrong person gets elected or a year later someone says that the votes were rigged but it's too late to do anything.

Oh, and don't be surprised if there's another terrorist act. Things like that are known to boost solidarity with the president.
 

_Zd_Phoenix_

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Freddie Johnson
When it is suggested that there is 'undeniable proof' that ACORN has systematically committed fraud, I'll admit that a slight expectation arises that some undeniable proof might be produced, instead of a complete lack of proof and an attempt to highlight where individuals have tried to defraud the system.

In one of those links Crotale posted it says "Among the jobs carried out by ACORN, with public funds, were voter registration, and a lot of the forms they submitted in southern Nevada appear to be fraudulent" ... I think what ACORN itself said about this is relevant here:
In nearly every case that has been reported , it was ACORN that discovered the bad forms, and called them to the attention of election authorities, putting the forms in a package that identified them in writing as suspicious, encouraging election officials to investigate, and offering to help with prosecutions. We are required by law to turn in all forms, but instead of just turning them in and figuring that it is the responsibility of the board of elections to figure out which are valid, we spend millions of dollars verifying that forms are valid, and then separate out those that are suspicious.
Also, it's interesting that ACORN is constantly labelled as corrupt without any real evidence. The same charges were brought in 2004 and 2006, only to be found to be without merit. Why does ACORN constantly get wholly attacked for a few individuals that they often help weed out in the first place?
This has nothing to do with “voter fraud” – nothing at all to do with anyone trying to cast an extra vote. There has never been a single reported instance in which bogus registration forms have led to anyone voting improperly. To do that, they would have to show up at the polls, prove their identity as all first-time registrants must, and risk jail.

When a department store calls the police to report a shoplifting employee, no one says the department store is guilty of consumer fraud. But for some reason, when ACORN turns voter registration workers over to the authorities for filling out bogus forms, it gets accused of “voter fraud.” This is a classic case of blaming the victim; indeed, these charges are outrageous, libelous, and often politically motivated.
It strikes me that none of these stories bother to mention how the system actually works, or bothers to mention that ACORN has its own screening programme and whether the particular case mentioned was caught by it.
 
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Iron Archer

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Why is ACORN under investigation then?

ACORN is under investigation in Ohio and at least eight other states - including Missouri, where the FBI said it's planning to look into potential voter fraud - for over-the-top efforts to get as many names as possible on the voter rolls regardless of whether a person is registered or eligible.
 

Crotale

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Nice reading comprehension on your part. I never said ACORN itself is corrupt, only that it should be held accountable for its employees actions, some of whom have proven to be less than honorable. I also never stated that ACORN in general is a bad organization, but if they cannot maintain some discipline within their ranks, they surely do not deserve my tax dollars.

Keep in mind that ACORN employees and associated contractors have been found guilty in numerous occasions of such voter tampering charges. This link shows a fairly long stream of improprieties in what can be perceived as a disturbing trend. But hey, we don't want to offend ACORN, since they are presumably in business to help those that supposedly cannot help themselves.
 

kiff

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I don't really know what to say after that. Did I say anything at all like 'we should ignore voter fraud'? No. So I have to wonder what the hell you're doing saying that.

ok, in all fairness, perhaps I jumped to a conclusion there. That said, I question your motivation for the original statement....

I'm not sure why you're defending ACORN so much. Honestly, with all of the evidence this early in the investigation surely looks -really- bad. I believe innocent until proven guilty, but I surely wouldn't act like all of this evidence against them means nothing.

The writing on the wall speaks volumes and I think you can see that, even though you'll argue against it. I personally have a lot of respect for your intelligence, you make well thought out arguments in the midst of **** storms, but sometimes I think you're stuck in the details. Back off and see the forest from the trees...

ACORN may have done some good things, but to add to their crap pile, they're the ones (et al?) that filed suites against banks not giving out sub-prime mortgages. Of course that's another thread...
 

_Zd_Phoenix_

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Nice reading comprehension on your part.
If you're going to complain about reading comprehension, you should be precise - don't shorthand it and hope people will read between the lines.

If you say 'ACORN' this and 'ACORN' that, then you're laying the blame directly with ACORN. Don't put it as a caveat after you've blasted them in long posts; if you're talking about a chapter or individuals, say so.
I also never stated that ACORN in general is a bad organization, but if they cannot maintain some discipline within their ranks, they surely do not deserve my tax dollars.
ACORN has registered 1.3 million for the current election alone and I haven't seen anything which shows the problems to be a really significant proportion of this. Also, the negative attacks by certain media sources completely fail to take into account how ACORN and the system works, so I find them to be largely disingenuous.

As for discipline, I will again say it is absurd to expect an organisation to be corruption free - all it can do is highlight it when it occurs, which they do and don't get any credit for.

Again in their own words, "When a department store calls the police to report a shoplifting employee, no one says the department store is guilty of consumer fraud. But for some reason, when ACORN turns voter registration workers over to the authorities for filling out bogus forms, it gets accused of 'voter fraud.'"

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I believe innocent until proven guilty
This is good...
but I surely wouldn't act like all of this evidence against them means nothing.
... but then it's spoiled by that contradiction. Innocent until proven guilty means just that, innocent until proven guilty, not 'innocent until unsubstantiated hearsay makes me change my mind'.

I mean, look at this from IA:
Iron Archer said:
Why is ACORN under investigation then?
- as if the doubt is enough to infer guilt. Again, this is an organisation that has been investigated twice before with such allegations and found not to be corrupt. The only reason I know who they are in the first place is through finding out about them after previous rumours. There will certainly be individuals who need to be caught, but they're individuals - why is everyone so quick to jump on the bandwagon of slamming the organisation?
Honestly, with all of the evidence this early in the investigation surely looks -really- bad.
What evidence? This is what really gets me, the fact that evidence seems to have taken on the meaning of 'rumour'. Now it's one thing to say that there are individuals that are doing these things, of that there is no doubt - ACORN themselves help to flag them - but why is it that all of these anecdotes of individual cases are being taken as being evidence against the ACORN programme itself?

If it is proved in a court of law that ACORN is suffering from widespread corruption, then that is real evidence. Until then, individual stories that ignore the checking system and widespread rumour that has been discredited twice before is not enough.

At least, it should not be enough.
 
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unbecoming

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All of you seem to be listening to unbecoming here, which is total madness. He said it himself, he doesn't want to post the links because he'd be accused of bias.

Madness?...THIS IS AMERICA!!! (Leonidas Style) :lol: I knew you didn't agree with me ,but I had no idea you thought I was crazy.


The idea that they commit mass fraud is bollocks

You are too far out there sometimes ya know.I'm really starting to believe you're one of those tranced obamatrons who DO NOT CARE ABOUT ANYTHING AS LONG AS YOUR GUY WINS.

Your number for mass fraud must be in the millions I guess.They only have to cheat enough to put Obama in the lead in key states and since it's already a close race IT COULD BE THE DIFFERENCE AND DOES MATTER.I do not care how many it is,even though single agencies have been found already to have OVER HALF AND MORE IN SOME CASES of their registrations to be flat out false and/or questionable.

You act like this is a first for them-like they are a victim here,which goes right along with the dem style of politics.Acorn has a long history of crap like this and when our only chance to realign this country with the right path wanted by the people is voting officials in and out,voting becomes the most important process we have and must be as clean and accurate as possible.It's like your saying "Oh a little corruption is ok,because it's impossible for them to make a difference".Now that is the BS right there.We have no clue how deep this rabbit hole goes.The figures they are finding are quite staggering and should raise concerns for most logical thinking Americans.

If the shoe were on the other foot,there would be riots,ESPECIALLY if it were this year.

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Where, on the other hand, is this 'undeniable' proof that ACORN itself - and not just individuals early on in the process - has broken laws that show this intent to commit fraud? Because this undeniable proof hasn't been produced anywhere I can find and hasn't been proven in a court of law. I'm wondering what sense of 'undeniable' this might be.

I'm speechless at your words.African Americans are popping up everywhere and going on record saying it's true.Networks are showing the fraudulent forms themselves on the TV.Some acorn workers are even coming clean.Just because the investigation isn't complete and hasn't gone through the courts doesn't mean it's not true man.Yeah innocent until proven guilty,but right now it's looking pretty obvious to me that it's fact,it's only the extent of the problem that is in question.

Acorn reps "REPRESENT" their agency.They are responsible for making sure their workers conduct themselves within with law.They cannot get off just by saying "It's our recruiters fault and we had nothing to do with it".This is why we have management and supervisors,to babysit.It sounds like you want no accountability,which shouldn't surprise me at this point.

When an employee does something wrong at a place of business,it's the business that gets sued,fined,or w/e-not the employee.If all they ever get is a slap on the wrist it will continue.I say cut their funding until they revamp how they screen and monitor their employees.

I guess obama's $ 800,000.00 gift also had nothing to do with this as well.
No corrupt Chicago style politics going on there.


*btw, however closely ACORN tends to work with the Democrats on this issue, ACORN is an NGO and not a subsidiary of the Democratic party.

Yes,but that doesn't change the fact that everything they do is IN FACT for the dems.I wonder how many people they would sign up if that person told the acorn rep they would register republican?Are they for just getting lower income people to get out and vote-NO.They are selectively shopping for specific votes and signatures.

Also, it's interesting that ACORN is constantly labelled as corrupt.Why does ACORN constantly get wholly attacked for a few individuals that they often help weed out in the first place?

Again Wow!Few individuals?A few to me means 3 or 4.
I guess the FBI must be low on work if they are going to conduct an expensive multi-state investigation for a few individuals.You see want you want,but I do recommend eating more carrots.Their vitamin A content may help improve your eyesight.
 

_Zd_Phoenix_

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Madness?...THIS IS AMERICA!!! (Leonidas Style) :lol: I knew you didn't agree with me ,but I had no idea you thought I was crazy.
Well maybe not crazy, but certainly in your own world when it comes to these posts. You'll post any old thing, have a warped idea as to what 'evidence' means and generally act like you're actually working spinning for the Republicans (NObama etc.etc.).

So as I've said before, it would definitely be crazy to respond to the types of stuff you post, almost like trying to have a debate with Bill O'Reilly or Sean Hannity.
 
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kiff

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This is good...

... but then it's spoiled by that contradiction. Innocent until proven guilty means just that, innocent until proven guilty, not 'innocent until unsubstantiated hearsay makes me change my mind'.
ok... tell me this. Do you think OJ is (was) guilty of murder? Be honest...
 

Iron Archer

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Your wasting your time arguing with these two. They are both idiots on this subject and Obama is set to win this election anyway.

Well that's nice. Of course, you did not bring anything to the conversation except for your usual venom. I wish I could use the same term in describing you but I really don't think it's fair to your parents. It's not their fault.

Barack Obama promised to let ACORN help shape his administration’s agenda even before he is inaugurated.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8vJcVgJhNaU
 
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Zur

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Hey, here's a thought. The corruption at Acorn is actually something financed by the republicans and is made to look like it's the work of the democrats.

Now please award me with your political vomit.
 
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Crotale

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Your wasting your time arguing with these two. They are both idiots on this subject and Obama is set to win this election anyway.
There's no need to be such a dick. Calling me an idiot does not mean you get upper hand in a discussion.

So what if Obama does win? I never said it's the end of the world, but the fact that some of you are turning a blind eye to this possible voter fraud are probably the same folks who would be screaming for the Republicans to get lambasted if a Conservative organization were allegedly committing similar offenses. I feel that ANY AND ALL voter improprieties should be investigated and the rightful person held accountable up to and including the parent organization. I'm not singling out ACORN; the stories speak for themselves. Yes, some of these allegations have proven to not pan out, but when the overall nationwide organization has seen these types of allegations and charges levied against ACORN as a whole, one cannot help but feel that the organization has some serious flaws. Call it the chicken little syndrome if you wish, but if nobody screams about it, nothing gets done.

The fact that some ACORN representatives have called out these issues and tried resolving them in-house does say that the entire organization is not guilty of such alleged wrongdoing. That said, however, when the number of allegations and stories come from all over the country, it's a bit much to swallow that the parent company has no responsibility to the taxpayers who help fund it. Taxpayers have a legal right to question the validity of ACORN's procedures and policies.
 

Zur

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Hey look, BillyBadAss is an Obamaphile. Let's buttrape him.

image005.jpg


P.S: These political discussions are going nowhere. Even the OP is biased.
 
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BillyBadAss

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There's no need to be such a dick. Calling me an idiot does not mean you get upper hand in a discussion.

You weren't whom I was referring too. One of them already figured out it's about them.

I never said it's the end of the world, but the fact that some of you are turning a blind eye to this possible voter fraud are probably the same folks who would be screaming for the Republicans to get lambasted if a Conservative organization were allegedly committing similar offenses.

They did. Gore won in 2000, but Jeb Bush was there as the back up plan. Florida ****ed up, and didn't have their **** together, so they had some time to make up some numbers. The hanging chad stuff was the biggest line of B.S. America has ever been served. The election was stolen and it was proof that Neo-Cons are the cancer of America. Everything they have done since then would make our fore fathers roll in their grave.
 

Iron Archer

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Billy, I think Crotale was simply saying that you're being a dick. It doesn't matter that you're not being a dick to him. At least Crotale is impartial enough to recognize a valid concern in possible voter fraud, instead of just calling people idiots like you have.

I don't remember the part of the TOS where it says it's ok to be a dick to people in the message board if they happen to be conservative or actually bring up factual stories that run contrary to your bias. I guess the TOS could have been updated after the HD crash a while back :lol:

I do have to commend Billy for his tenacity in not letting go of the whole Florida debacle. Impartial organizations conducted vote counts and proved that the vote counts were in Bush's favor. LET IT GO ALREADY. I can just imagine Billy's tombstone is going to have something about the 2000 election on it. "Gore should have won" or something to that effect.
 
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The Dopefish

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I believe that I will begin an impartial investigation into why there are a bunch of crazy right-wingers running rampant on this message board. That sounds like an idea everyone will agree with.

In all honesty, I still won't be surprised if McCain wins this election somehow. And if he does, no one who who honestly believes any of this ACORN crap can ever say anything about it again.
 
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