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Evil_Cope
21st Nov 2001, 05:25 PM
well, its been a while since we had a real good religious debate type thread that wasnt a lazy-ass poll thread, so here we are...


ive been thinking.

does it really matter to you if jesus was the son of god or not?
i mean, at the end of the day... does it even matter?

...

BangOut
21st Nov 2001, 05:37 PM
Good job!

Just what we didn't need. You win the NC Golden Mongoloid award for today.

Deathwing
21st Nov 2001, 06:07 PM
Whether he is or he isn't, he's still a cool dude!

Evil_Cope
21st Nov 2001, 06:13 PM
Originally posted by Deathwing
Whether he is or he isn't, he's still a cool dude!


and that, is what im getting at? why is the whole "son of god" "dying to save our sins" bit played up so much? and why are people so violently opposed to the idea that he may just have been some jewish political dissenter.

surely, its his teachings that matter, not the religious bull****



[:P@nanny]

lucifix
21st Nov 2001, 06:52 PM
Originally posted by mister_cope



and that, is what im getting at? why is the whole "son of god" "dying to save our sins" bit played up so much? and why are people so violently opposed to the idea that he may just have been some jewish political dissenter.

surely, its his teachings that matter, not the religious bull****



[:P@nanny] i agree. i believe he was born mortal, sure he was probably "touched" by god, but i dont think god actually made mary magically preganant so she would give birth to his son.

Claw
21st Nov 2001, 07:08 PM
Originally posted by mister_cope
surely, its his teachings that matter, not the religious bull****

[:P@nanny]


Damn ****ing right.

BangOut
21st Nov 2001, 07:48 PM
wow you went around nanny lock just to post that? this is why we put it in

Claw
21st Nov 2001, 08:08 PM
Originally posted by BangOut
wow you went around nanny lock just to post that? this is why we put it in

Good to have someone keep the standards up.

Cat Fuzz
22nd Nov 2001, 12:48 AM
I'm NOT takin the bait!!

BangOut
22nd Nov 2001, 12:57 AM
good, Cat. Good.

you are a better person for ignoring this.

Rabid Wolf
22nd Nov 2001, 01:58 AM
he was some sort of hippie-punk who thought he knew it better than anyone else, plus maybe a bit of an attention-whore.
reeks o' waco. and the roman fbi moved in eventually...

Evil_Cope
22nd Nov 2001, 05:20 PM
Originally posted by Cat Fuzz
I'm NOT takin the bait!!


lazy booger.

its a serious question cat fuzz. does it matter to you whether or not jesus christ is the son of god?



oh and bangout... regarding nanylock, i didnt go around it just to post that, i posted that just because of nannylock. its a reverse psycology thing youve got going on poo boy. and if your scared of this decending into a flame war, why did you post the first (completely un-provoked) flame?

BangOut
22nd Nov 2001, 05:42 PM
because you damned well deserve it for starting a thread like this and you know it

it's like putting a bunch of oily rags, old newspaper, and a box of matches in a room full of toddlers and claiming innocence when they torch themselves

happy thanksgiving

Evil_Cope
22nd Nov 2001, 05:44 PM
Originally posted by BangOut
because you damned well deserve it for starting a thread like this and you know it

it's like putting a bunch of oily rags, old newspaper, and a box of matches in a room full of toddlers and claiming innocence when they torch themselves

happy thanksgiving


...


pfff.


i seriously want an answer. consider yourself ignored poo boy.

BangOut
22nd Nov 2001, 05:59 PM
you are the weakest whatever you are, goodbye

Cat Fuzz
23rd Nov 2001, 02:14 AM
Originally posted by mister_cope



...


pfff.


i seriously want an answer. consider yourself ignored poo boy.


I would like to give an answer but I'd just be attacked for it and I'd have to defend myself, then I'd be attacked again and I'd have to defend myself again, then I'd be attacked again and then I'd have to defend myself again, then I'd be attacked again...............get the idea?

lucifix
23rd Nov 2001, 03:39 AM
Originally posted by Cat Fuzz



I would like to give an answer but I'd just be attacked for it and I'd have to defend myself, then I'd be attacked again and I'd have to defend myself again, then I'd be attacked again and then I'd have to defend myself again, then I'd be attacked again...............get the idea? no it doesnt have to be that way, just give an honest simple answer. personally to me jesus is jesus no matter if he was the son of god or not ;)

Ulukai
23rd Nov 2001, 07:44 AM
Did you know cannon balls float in liquid Mercury?

Sorry, what were you talking about?

BangOut
23rd Nov 2001, 08:35 AM
Wow, that's interesting. Mercury must be pretty dense. Did you know that in the Civil War, cannonballs fired from Fort Sumter in Charleston's harbor would bounce off of the Palmetto trees on the shores of the river? Their trunks are known for being so strong and yet flexible as well: that's why they are the state tree and are featured on the state license plate.

Ulukai
23rd Nov 2001, 10:46 AM
Gosh, that's interesting too. Perhaps the military should consider making armoured personnel carriers out of those trees. I'll 'fire' off a quick e-mail to Colin Powell.

Cat Fuzz
23rd Nov 2001, 02:16 PM
Originally posted by lucifix
no it doesnt have to be that way, just give an honest simple answer. personally to me jesus is jesus no matter if he was the son of god or not ;)



It does matter if Jesus is the Son of God and He is. Ooops! I've prolly said too much already. :rolleyes:

Rukee
23rd Nov 2001, 02:40 PM
Life has many choices....

Eternity has two...


What`s your choice?

Frostblood
23rd Nov 2001, 02:53 PM
"It does matter if Jesus is the Son of God and He is. Ooops! I've prolly said too much already. "

OMG u belive in god ur a sad loooser LOL LOL LOL!!!!

Just a simulation of the expected response...

Evil_Cope
23rd Nov 2001, 04:27 PM
this isnt about wether or not he is the son of god, its about wether it really makes a difference.

surely his message is what should be important, surely the mear fact he has a famous dad shouldnt make any difference about whether his message is a rightfull one or or not.

BangOut
23rd Nov 2001, 04:36 PM
Originally posted by Ulukai
Gosh, that's interesting too. Perhaps the military should consider making armoured personnel carriers out of those trees. I'll 'fire' off a quick e-mail to Colin Powell.

Fire... get it? LOL ROFL LMAO HAHHAHA

Cat Fuzz
23rd Nov 2001, 07:23 PM
Originally posted by mister_cope
this isnt about wether or not he is the son of god, its about wether it really makes a difference.

surely his message is what should be important, surely the mear fact he has a famous dad shouldnt make any difference about whether his message is a rightfull one or or not.


Ok, if His message is important, tell me what that is.

Evil_Cope
23rd Nov 2001, 08:56 PM
Originally posted by Cat Fuzz



Ok, if His message is important, tell me what that is.


your the christian, if even you dont care about his message, how can you expect anyone else to give a damn? lol

Claw
23rd Nov 2001, 09:14 PM
Originally posted by Frostblood
OMG u belive in god ur a sad loooser LOL LOL LOL!!!!

Just a simulation of the expected response...

We just love our prejudices don't we :p

Vendetta
23rd Nov 2001, 09:31 PM
people want the message jesus gave to be from God so that they can ease their minds with the feeling that something would take care of them. if jesus was just another dude with a way with words then we could never fully believe in his message cuz people arent perfect. with God as his father he could attain perfection.

whats wrong with the idea that we evolved from scum. that the entire universe "just happened"? or maybe the big bang was the work of God.

whats wrong with not seperating "the creator" from "the creation"- they could be one and the same. which would mean we are all a part of God.

whats wrong with not seperating good and evil? structure and chaos? they are both necessary for the universe to exist as it does. and if God created the universe he created evil/chaos along with it.
What God gave us over animals is the ablility to choose between good and evil in our actions. Jesus was relaying the message. personally i cant say i believe in God, but i cant say i dont either.

Evil_Cope
23rd Nov 2001, 09:35 PM
Originally posted by Vendetta
people want the message jesus gave to be from God so that they can ease their minds with the feeling that something would take care of them. if jesus was just another dude with a way with words then we could never fully believe in his message cuz people arent perfect. with God as his father he could attain perfection.

whats wrong with the idea that we evolved from scum. that the entire universe "just happened"? or maybe the big bang was the work of God.

whats wrong with not seperating "the creator" from "the creation"- they could be one and the same. which would mean we are all a part of God.

whats wrong with not seperating good and evil? structure and chaos? they are both necessary for the universe to exist as it does. and if God created the universe he created evil/chaos along with it.
What God gave us over animals is the ablility to choose between good and evil in our actions. Jesus was relaying the message. personally i cant say i believe in God, but i cant say i dont either.


the idea that god made us somehow better is nothing but a conceit. were just mokeys that got lucky.

Evil_Cope
23rd Nov 2001, 09:36 PM
Originally posted by mister_cope



the idea that god made us somehow better is nothing but a conceit. were just mokeys that got lucky.

the "god made us special" bit is one of the few points that really make me doubt in christianity. course, lots of it doesnt make sense or sound right, but this is one of the things that really stands out. :P

Vendetta
23rd Nov 2001, 09:52 PM
like i said whats wrong with the idea that **** just happened?

Vendetta
23rd Nov 2001, 09:57 PM
...were just monkeys that got lucky...

luck had nothing to do with it. neither did God. a larger brain gave us better chances at survival and therefore perpetuating the species. that larger brain just happens to want to believe their is something "out there" that is bigger than it.

Evil_Cope
23rd Nov 2001, 10:14 PM
Originally posted by Vendetta
...were just monkeys that got lucky...

luck had nothing to do with it. neither did God. a larger brain gave us better chances at survival and therefore perpetuating the species. that larger brain just happens to want to believe their is something "out there" that is bigger than it.

im not entirely convinced. humans, or at least, the humans we evolved from, where kidna the runts of the pack. sure the brain helped, but having dogs to help us hunt didnt hurt either. far as being the dominant species goes, we dont really deserve it. big heads or not, most animals out there could take us 1on1 and out run and outlive us in a good few enviroments.

we happen to have pulled an evolutionary wildcard though. the opposable thumb, which effectively allows us to "cheat" and use tools, create clothes and weapons etc...

Vendetta
23rd Nov 2001, 10:22 PM
why do you consider our big, tool using brains cheating? was it given to us unfairly? we are not fast, big, strong, tough, or covered in thick leathery skin or fur and we dont have fangs and claws. if we had any one of these we wouldnt need the brains to keep us alive. but what we do have makes us infinitly more dangerous than anything that has lived.

and honestly would you want to be any fierce animal with its limited imagination? i like having a brain.

Evil_Cope
23rd Nov 2001, 10:25 PM
Originally posted by Vendetta
why do you consider our big, tool using brains cheating? was it given to us unfairly? we are not fast, big, strong, tough, or covered in thick leathery skin or fur and we dont have fangs and claws. if we had any one of these we wouldnt need the brains to keep us alive. but what we do have makes us infinitly more dangerous than anything that has lived.

and honestly would you want to be any fierce animal with its limited imagination? i like having a brain.
in a survival of the fittest kinda sense, walking softly and carrying a big stick as opposed to being in some way faster or stronger or something is cheating.


think evolutionary camping :) but im not complaining about being on top of the foodchain lol. and i like my pc :)

Cat Fuzz
24th Nov 2001, 01:41 AM
Originally posted by mister_cope



your the christian, if even you dont care about his message, how can you expect anyone else to give a damn? lol


I want to know what YOU think His message is. I know what it is.

BangOut
24th Nov 2001, 01:50 AM
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Frostblood
24th Nov 2001, 03:44 AM
"the "god made us special" bit is one of the few points that really make me doubt in christianity. course, lots of it doesnt make sense or sound right, but this is one of the things that really stands out. :P"

I dont see how...all it says is not that we are better, greater or more intelligent than other animals, but that we have the knowlege of good and evil ( and that to get that, we had to disobey God so if anything, we are worse than them.

I agree with Vendetta that when religion trys to deny science or close the minds of followers, there is something wrong, but it doesnt have to do this. Just because some people choose to be ignorant ( imo ) doesnt mean the concept is a bad one.

Frostblood
24th Nov 2001, 03:46 AM
Cat Fuzz : Jesus's message is simple, love thy neighbor as theyself. "Love is the fulfilling of the law, for love does no harm" ( or something like that ).

Evil_Cope
24th Nov 2001, 08:15 AM
Originally posted by Frostblood
Cat Fuzz : Jesus's message is simple, love thy neighbor as theyself. "Love is the fulfilling of the law, for love does no harm" ( or something like that ).

pretty much.
now me, im not grimm, i dont even pretend to research this stuff, i already know that i dont beleave in the bible from what i hear about it all the time, and from my own beleafs.

i dont think we are in any way special. just different, like cats are different from dogs, and goldfish from the smartest dolphins.

the "we are gods special little creations bit" smacks of conceit and arrogance. or if you wanna get biblical, vanity.

Ulukai
24th Nov 2001, 09:27 AM
Originally posted by BangOut
In Emperor: Battle for DuneTM, you command any of three unique armies in a battle to control the universe. Political intrigue, social upheaval, and all-out warfare unfold before you in glorious 3D!

Hmm, there is a fourth Dune game?

I played Dune 2 (which is a RTS), then they did another one (which was a bit crap by all accounts) and there is now another one?

Is it good?

Claw
24th Nov 2001, 09:44 AM
Originally posted by Ulukai


Hmm, there is a fourth Dune game?

I played Dune 2 (which is a RTS), then they did another one (which was a bit crap by all accounts) and there is now another one?

Is it good?

I guess by the other one you mean Dune2000, the Dune2 revisioned version. Better graphics, crappy intro, all the charming li'll details scrapped. B$
The new one is Dune3 methinks. Supposedly pretty good.

Ulukai
24th Nov 2001, 09:53 AM
Yeah, Dune 2000. That was it. None of them seem to have captured the atmosphere from the David Lynch film, which I guess is what they based it on, given that most people assume us 'young folks' don't read books anymore :/

Claw
24th Nov 2001, 10:06 AM
Weeell... I DID like Dune2 very much. I loved the intro. "insidious" is one of my favourite English words :lol:

Frostblood
24th Nov 2001, 02:02 PM
"pretty much.
now me, im not grimm, i dont even pretend to research this stuff, i already know that i dont beleave in the bible from what i hear about it all the time, and from my own beleafs.

i dont think we are in any way special. just different, like cats are different from dogs, and goldfish from the smartest dolphins.

the "we are gods special little creations bit" smacks of conceit and arrogance. or if you wanna get biblical, vanity."

We arnt special, but we are more intelligent and have the "knowlege of good and evil"...this is actually a very good summing up of the only difference between us and the other animals. I dont see what you see in the bible and I do believe in god but at the end of the day, its not what you profess to believe but what you do that counts.

BangOut
24th Nov 2001, 02:25 PM
Dune 2000 was Westwood's shameless attempt to capitalize on its ground-breaking original RTS.

It was basically the same game, just with slightly better graphics and controls. I played the demo for five minutes and knew when I had stumbled into kaka.

Dune: Emporer or whatever it is is a 3D game with many of the older units and obviously a slightly deeper environment with the new graphics plus the same three-house storyline.

How does it play? Dunno... damn Westwood hasn't released a demo. I'm sure it plays like every other formulated Westwood RTS... God bless 'em for putting life into the genre and shame on them for stagnating it as well.

Cat Fuzz
24th Nov 2001, 02:51 PM
Originally posted by Frostblood
Cat Fuzz : Jesus's message is simple, love thy neighbor as theyself. "Love is the fulfilling of the law, for love does no harm" ( or something like that ).



Thats only a small part of it and very insignificant compared to the main message. Jesus did not come to teach people to be nice. Jesus came to be living sacrifice for the atonement of sins. There can be no forgiveness of sins without sacrifice. The Jews before Jesus's time had to regularly make sacrifices to God to atone for their sins. Jesus was meant to be a once-for-all sacrifice. A free gift of salvation that only has to be accepted. Jesus was and is God. But He is also the Son Of God. Seperate but the same. When He suffered on the cross, he felt every nail pierce His skin, the struggle to breathe, the thorns on His head, the taunts and ridicule of the people watching Him die. God fully felt what it was like to be human. The pain, the temptation, hunger, thirst. His coming was prophesied hundreds if not thousands of years before in many writings from prophets that knew nothing of each others existance. When Jesus died, the curtain seperating God from man in the Temple was torn in two, thus allowing access to God to all who believe in His Son.

BangOut
24th Nov 2001, 02:53 PM
Stop trying to change the subject Cat. Have you played any of the Dune games? I remember first playing the Genesis version.

Frostblood
24th Nov 2001, 02:54 PM
maybe so, but in terms of how he tells us to live, love thy neighbor is at the heart of it.

Cat Fuzz
24th Nov 2001, 04:48 PM
Originally posted by Frostblood
maybe so, but in terms of how he tells us to live, love thy neighbor is at the heart of it.




No, thats not the heart of it. The heart of it is atonement for sins thru the blood of Christ. There is no other way to God. There are only two choices that really make any difference, service to God, or service to satan. There is no middle ground. The only way to serve God is to accept His Son and allow Him into your life. I know its difficult to give up control of your life. I'm always trying to take back control myself. Its difficult for people to accept that they are not good enough for God, no matter what they do. The ONLY thing that makes you good enough is to accept Jesus as your Savior.

Oh, man, I've really stepped in it now.

Vendetta
24th Nov 2001, 05:15 PM
Cat- I'm glad you spoke your mind. i'm not a believer in religion. i was brought up to NOT believe in God. but on my own search for truth i cant deny the possibility of a God. For instance, isnt it a coincidence that the sun and moon apear the same size in our sky?
but on the other hand when jehovahs come to my door and say god planned/created everything, i ask them did he plan each and every direction a branch grows on a tree? thats the chaos part of our universe. the unplanned part that makes it exciting and different.

IMO God created the universe in a big bang and let it go on its own from there. its up to us to find god and become what he envisioned. i dont see him being a part of our daily lives.

but like i said i dont really believe one way or the other.

Claw
24th Nov 2001, 08:53 PM
Originally posted by Cat Fuzz
(...) His coming was prophesied hundreds if not thousands of years before in many writings from prophets that knew nothing of each others existance.

That topic was raised b4 I recall, and I think it was GoAt who pointed out how unclear (or even implausible) those prophecies were... there was even an explanation given how one prophecy with certainity meant someone else, long before Jesus.
I think you never even tried to rectify that, but maybe with GoAt's help it can be sorted out once and for all... :D

Only I remember from the old forum how good Fuzzy would say something completly different rather than replying appropriately to an argument most of the time... :p
Dos anyone wonder why the good old chrstianity dicusssions led nowhere? 'cos you need at least two parties to argue... and see above

Claw
24th Nov 2001, 09:23 PM
Originally posted by Cat Fuzz

No, thats not the heart of it. The heart of it is atonement for sins thru the blood of Christ. There is no other way to God. There are only two choices that really make any difference, service to God, or service to satan. There is no middle ground. The only way to serve God is to accept His Son and allow Him into your life. I know its difficult to give up control of your life. I'm always trying to take back control myself. Its difficult for people to accept that they are not good enough for God, no matter what they do. The ONLY thing that makes you good enough is to accept Jesus as your Savior.

Oh, man, I've really stepped in it now.


Sure you did. As we knew you would.

So Jesus didn't teach ppl to be neice to each other? But he should have, 'cos that's what ppl need telling.
Besides, I did get a christian education indeed, by a parish priest (what kind of stupid term is that? It's what the dictionary says, sounds pretty stupid to me) and I remember is consisted of reading from the bible how Jesus gave an example of how people should be nice towards each other by beaing nice to someone, and telling people to be nice just like he was, and the priest emphasizing how we, too, should be nice towards other people.

While I've turned my back on the church, I think this message is a good one, and one that should be indoctrinated instead of the B$ you're telling us Fuzzy.
I mean, what abstract B$ it you're telling us anyway? Propagande. It's of no preactical use, or how do I do 'atonement for sins thru the blood of Christ' ?

You are practically tell me I can live my whole life without committing any sin, stayin' pure as a newborn baby, and get tossed into hell for not believing in God, but a murderer who's raped little girls and whatever else, you got phantasy so please yourself, gets to heaven after a short trip to Purgery 'cos he f*** 'accepted God's son as his saviour' ?
Looks like God has some pretty low standards. Oh, wait, now I remember; we're all too lowly to live up to god's standards, so I really am no better than this piece of scum.
So in fact all the difference that matters to god is submittal, kinda "serve me or go to hell".

Sounds like your god is a tyrant to me. Being a good man doesn't matter; being his loyal servant does.
I'll rather be a good human, and f-word your god; what an *******.


But in the end, I believe you are just led astray. I go with Frost that God (whatever that means) may have created the universe. If that's so, he (or it) created the whole universe with a set uf rules to make it run as he wants to; much like a simulation if you want. I doubt he would've made mistakes, so it was surely perfectly as he wanted it from the start, and men's appearance was according to the rules that apply in the universe.
Maybe it is chance we appeared on this planet. There are propably many, many other planets, some of which may bear life.
What I doubt is that he intervendes, breaking the rules of his little experiment or whatever it is to him.
I also doubt he want us to serve him, and will punish us for not believing in him.

Oh, and do not forget to be nice to each other ppl :)

Cat Fuzz
25th Nov 2001, 02:05 AM
I'm not gettin into this again. I'm bowing out. Soemone else can take the arrows.

Frostblood
25th Nov 2001, 03:05 AM
"No, thats not the heart of it. The heart of it is atonement for sins thru the blood of Christ. There is no other way to God. There are only two choices that really make any difference, service to God, or service to satan. There is no middle ground. The only way to serve God is to accept His Son and allow Him into your life. I know its difficult to give up control of your life. I'm always trying to take back control myself. Its difficult for people to accept that they are not good enough for God, no matter what they do. The ONLY thing that makes you good enough is to accept Jesus as your Savior.

Oh, man, I've really stepped in it now."

Exactly. Accept christ by following Gods teachings, e.g love thy neighbor as thyself. Are you saying that a murderer who professed to love jesus would be considered better than a good aetheist? From what i've seen and heard of the bible thats not the point at all, because anyone can profess to love god but the only way to actually do it is to follow his teachings, which boils down to love thy neighbor as thyself. I respect your point of view but i think that what is meant by accepting god is to accept his teachings, not just say you've accepted him.

BangOut
25th Nov 2001, 03:11 AM
Originally posted by Cat Fuzz
I'm not gettin into this again. I'm bowing out. Soemone else can take the arrows.

DDDUUUUUUUUUUHHHHHHHHH

Cat Fuzz
25th Nov 2001, 11:37 AM
Originally posted by BangOut


DDDUUUUUUUUUUHHHHHHHHH


Shut up Bang Out :rolleyes: :p :rolleyes: :p :rolleyes:

Stilgar
25th Nov 2001, 11:47 AM
I was completely addicted to Dune2 on my old A1200...
I bought Dune2000 for the pc and I didn't think it was all that bad.... the new fremem units were kinda neat, but you still couldn't control air units, which is a PITA... over all it offered little over C&C ...but I still bothered to play it right through to the end :>

Evil_Cope
25th Nov 2001, 05:54 PM
Originally posted by Cat Fuzz
I'm not gettin into this again. I'm bowing out. Soemone else can take the arrows.


cat fuzz, you never get into it. you always bow out.


abyone know where this "saintbeam" has got to? we need a more willing debater/victim. ;)


oh, and its not what i expected actually fuzz, but im glad you decided to share :)

Evil_Cope
25th Nov 2001, 05:55 PM
Originally posted by Cat Fuzz



Shut up Bang Out :rolleyes: :p :rolleyes: :p :rolleyes:

amen brother.

Cat Fuzz
25th Nov 2001, 06:19 PM
Originally posted by mister_cope



cat fuzz, you never get into it. you always bow out.


abyone know where this "saintbeam" has got to? we need a more willing debater/victim. ;)


oh, and its not what i expected actually fuzz, but im glad you decided to share :)


I don't always bow out. We're just getting into the same roundy round as before. Totally non-constructive. We could go back and forth till Jesus comes again.

Evil_Cope
25th Nov 2001, 06:21 PM
Originally posted by Cat Fuzz



I don't always bow out. We're just getting into the same roundy round as before. Totally non-constructive. We could go back and forth till Jesus comes again.

you got something better to do?

Cat Fuzz
25th Nov 2001, 06:23 PM
Yes, I do.

BangOut
25th Nov 2001, 06:25 PM
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LAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHB

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LAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHB

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25th Nov 2001, 06:30 PM
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So, just what are you trying to say, Bang Out? :D

GoAt
25th Nov 2001, 06:54 PM
cat_fuzz (i pick on you cause your the biggest christian here.)
if god forbids all these sinful things, why did he make us with those thoughts? if he is so perfect, he couldve limited what we think.
if your god is a jelous god, why doesnt he just kill the other gods that are worshiped and force his jurisdiction on all of us?
Thou Shalt not kill. david killed goliath. in war thousand are killed by another hand. hell each time you kill a bug, or animal you kill one of "gods precious creatures"
if he forbids homosexuals, why didnt he remove that possibility when he "created us?"
the virgin mary... (rofl) i think she just got drunk one night and forgot the events that happend, or she ****ed her hubby and ran around saying that so she could get some atten (the only way to confirm if she was a virgin is to examin the hymen)
jesus tnrned an empyty glass full?any magician know how easy it is to put a bladder in your sleeve and hide your pouring water into a glass. moses split the red sea? there are times when the tide ruses out to the ocean for a bit then basicly flys back in for high tide.
jesus walked on water? same thing maybe the man did his reaserch and examined when the tide would be just right for walking so he could walk around and look like he floated.



now cat, you have been avoiding my little rants for some time, it would be nice to have a little feedback from you.

JTRipper
25th Nov 2001, 07:42 PM
Originally posted by Cat Fuzz
His coming was prophesied hundreds if not thousands of years before in many writings from prophets that knew nothing of each others existance.

The only prophesy I'm aware of is Isaiah's prophesy of about 750 years before the birth of Jesus, which has it's problems. Could you fill me in on some of the others?

Cat Fuzz
25th Nov 2001, 08:14 PM
Originally posted by GoAt
cat_fuzz (i pick on you cause your the biggest christian here.)
if god forbids all these sinful things, why did he make us with those thoughts? if he is so perfect, he couldve limited what we think.

He also gave us free will. Otherwise we would be little fleshy robots.


if your god is a jelous god, why doesnt he just kill the other gods that are worshiped and force his jurisdiction on all of us?

There are no other gods except in the minds of those that worship false gods. Again, the free will thing.

Thou Shalt not kill. david killed goliath. in war thousand are killed by another hand. hell each time you kill a bug, or animal you kill one of "gods precious creatures"

David was doing Gods work. Showing that God can use the least of us to do His work. The Israelites were hopelessly outnumbered against the Phillistines and didn't think they could beat them. But God showed them that all things are possible with God.

if he forbids homosexuals, why didnt he remove that possibility when he "created us?"

The free will thing again. He wants us to CHOOSE Him, not be forced. Otherwise we'd just be robots.

the virgin mary... (rofl) i think she just got drunk one night and forgot the events that happend, or she ****ed her hubby and ran around saying that so she could get some atten (the only way to confirm if she was a virgin is to examin the hymen)

All things are possible with God. Angels spoke to both Mary and Joseph. They also spoke to Zecheriah and Elizebeth about the coming miracle. As soon as Mary walked in the door of Elizabeths house, she knew she was to give birth to the Savior.

jesus tnrned an empyty glass full?any magician know how easy it is to put a bladder in your sleeve and hide your pouring water into a glass.

I don't remember this one.

moses split the red sea? there are times when the tide ruses out to the ocean for a bit then basicly flys back in for high tide.

Your reaching Goat. I've never heard of a natural tide splitting a sea in half allowing people to walk across on dry land. DRY land. Not ankle deep water or even mud, but it was dry. And it just happened that the sea water returned just in time to kill Pharoahs army.

jesus walked on water? same thing maybe the man did his reaserch and examined when the tide would be just right for walking so he could walk around and look like he floated.

Peter also walked on water for a short time, but began to lose faith because of the surrounding storm and started to sink. Yeah, just happened to be a little land just under the water that their boat didn't get caught up on. They were in the middle of the sea. Not likely that this land bridge would extend from land to the place where their boat was by chance. Besides, it was raining and very stormy at the time, if anything the water level would have risen during this time.



now cat, you have been avoiding my little rants for some time, it would be nice to have a little feedback from you.

It is difficult to debate 10 people at once with everyone going in different directions and everyone expecting answers to their posts. I'm not good at debating. My answers require much thought.

Claw
25th Nov 2001, 08:54 PM
Originally posted by Cat Fuzz
He also gave us free will. Otherwise we would be little fleshy robots.

And He didn't want that because... ?




David was doing Gods work. Showing that God can use the least of us to do His work. The Israelites were hopelessly outnumbered against the Phillistines and didn't think they could beat them. But God showed them that all things are possible with God.

Oh. Well, shouldn't the 6th (or 5th, I found different versions :rolleyes: ) Commandment read "Do not kill unless with special permission by God" then?




The free will thing again. He wants us to CHOOSE Him, not be forced. Otherwise we'd just be robots.

Oh yes; free indeed. We are threatened with eternal suffering in Hell if we fail to make the right choice, but apart from that we're absolutely free. :rolleyes:




It is difficult to debate 10 people at once with everyone going in different directions and everyone expecting answers to their posts. I'm not good at debating. My answers require much thought.

I don't see you straining yourself really. And I got the impression BagOut invested more time in replying to this thread than you did, to be honest. :rolleyes:

And I am quite used to getting no reply from you at all, thank you so very much. :cool:

Cat Fuzz
25th Nov 2001, 08:56 PM
Originally posted by JTRipper


The only prophesy I'm aware of is Isaiah's prophesy of about 750 years before the birth of Jesus, which has it's problems. Could you fill me in on some of the others?

The earliest prophesy is in Genesis 3:15: "And I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and hers; he will crush your head, and you will strike his heel." NIV

The antagonism between people and snakes is used to symbolize the outcome of the titanic struggle between God and satan. The offspring of the woman would eventually crush the serpents head, a promise fulfilled in Christ's victory over satan.

A prophecy of Jesus' birth, Micah 5:2 "But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, though you are small among the clans of Judah, out of you will come for me one who will be ruler over Israel, whose origins are from of old, from ancient times. "
3. Therefore Israel will be abandoned until the time when she who is in labor gives birth and the rest of his brothers return to join the Israelites.
4. He will stand and shepherd his flock in the strength of the LORD, in the majesty of the name of the LORD his God. And they will live securely, for then his greatness will reach to the ends of the earth.

And one of His death: Psalm 22:15-18 My strength is dried up like a potsherd, and my tongue sticks to the roof of my mouth; you lay me in the dust of death.
16. Dogs have surrounded me; a band of evil men has encircled me, they have pierced my hands and my feet.
17. I can count all my bones; people stare and gloat over me.
18. They divide my garments among them and cast lots for my clothing.



The entire 53rd chapter of Isaiah is a glaring prophesy about Messiah that Jesus fulfilled:

1. Who has believed our message and to whom has the arm of the LORD been revealed?
2. He grew up before him like a tender shoot, and like a root out of dry ground. He had no beauty or majesty to attract us to him, nothing in his appearance that we should desire him.
3. He was despised and rejected by men, a man of sorrows, and familiar with suffering. Like one from whom men hide their faces he was despised, and we esteemed him not.
4. Surely he took up our infirmities and carried our sorrows, yet we considered him stricken by God, smitten by him, and afflicted.
5. But he was pierced for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was upon him, and by his wounds we are healed.
6. We all, like sheep, have gone astray, each of us has turned to his own way; and the LORD has laid on him the iniquity of us all.
7. He was oppressed and afflicted, yet he did not open his mouth; he was led like a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is silent, so he did not open his mouth.
8. By oppression and judgment he was taken away. And who can speak of his descendants? For he was cut off from the land of the living; for the transgression of my people he was stricken.
9. He was assigned a grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death, though he had done no violence, nor was any deceit in his mouth.
10. Yet it was the LORD's will to crush him and cause him to suffer, and though the LORD makes his life a guilt offering, he will see his offspring and prolong his days, and the will of the LORD will prosper in his hand.
11. After the suffering of his soul, he will see the light [of life] and be satisfied ; by his knowledge my righteous servant will justify many, and he will bear their iniquities.
12. Therefore I will give him a portion among the great, and he will divide the spoils with the strong, because he poured out his life unto death, and was numbered with the transgressors. For he bore the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.

GoAt
25th Nov 2001, 08:57 PM
you didnt fully answer my question concerning the virgin mary.

and im considering your freewill answeres as a shortcut-universal answer.

the other religions im asuming consider YOUR god false.
prove to me that your god is is real, and ill consider my standing.
and some black book with a cross on it will not suffice

Cat Fuzz
25th Nov 2001, 08:58 PM
Originally posted by JTRipper


The only prophesy I'm aware of is Isaiah's prophesy of about 750 years before the birth of Jesus, which has it's problems. Could you fill me in on some of the others?

Also, could you please make me aware of the problems you speak of?

Cat Fuzz
25th Nov 2001, 09:00 PM
Originally posted by GoAt
you didnt fully answer my question concerning the virgin mary.

and im considering your freewill answeres as a shortcut-universal answer.

the other religions im asuming consider YOUR god false.
prove to me that your god is is real, and ill consider my standing.
and some black book with a cross on it will not suffice




I can't give you the kind of proof you want. You want to SEE God with your own eyes, I guess. I can't do that. On the same token, you cannot prove that He does NOT exist. Oh, my Bible is blue. :rolleyes:

Cat Fuzz
25th Nov 2001, 09:10 PM
Originally posted by GoAt
you didnt fully answer my question concerning the virgin mary.

and im considering your freewill answeres as a shortcut-universal answer.

the other religions im asuming consider YOUR god false.
prove to me that your god is is real, and ill consider my standing.
and some black book with a cross on it will not suffice

We HAVE free will. God wants willing servants. He could easily make us all worship Him but it would be of no value if it was forced. Its like if you force a woman to kiss you. She's not doing it out of love for you, but because you forced her.

About the Virgin Mary: You forget that Joseph himself did not believe her. He was going to divorce her until an angel of the Lord appeared to him and told him otherwise. Why else would he suddenly change his mind?

Claw
25th Nov 2001, 09:53 PM
Originally posted by Cat Fuzz
We HAVE free will. God wants willing servants. He could easily make us all worship Him but it would be of no value if it was forced. Its like if you force a woman to kiss you. She's not doing it out of love for you, but because you forced her.

Well, as I staded previously, it's more like telling her she can kiss me or not, but if she doesn't something nasty will happen to her...

Mister_Prophet
25th Nov 2001, 11:26 PM
Wow u losers still practice these "religious debates".

C'mon guys, it's a waste of time, none of us know if there is a God, much less if he has a son. Really it's a waste of time to talk about, you all just want to get your opinion across because you beleive your right, yet none of you consider the fact that we as people just may not be important enough to deserve the right to debate such topics such as this.

Now lets talk about sumthing we can all really debate and actually back it up with some truth. for instance, wtf is up with this Carrot Top ******* on phone comercials, how the hell is he a celebrity. Or we just could talk about Just how much PS2 owns the overconfident X-box. Take your pic, but leave the religious b.s. to God and science.

BangOut
25th Nov 2001, 11:31 PM
AMEN PROPHET!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

oosyxxx
25th Nov 2001, 11:58 PM
Priceless=Listening to my psychology major nephew explain why there is no such thing as "free will" whilst stoned and listening to "Echoes Part 1."

Cat Fuzz
26th Nov 2001, 01:25 AM
scuse me whilst I bash my head into a wall. Gotta make sure theres a stud there for maximum effect.



I KNOW there is a God. I've always known. Universes don't just happen by accident. Way to complex. My body, to complex to be an accident. Nature, to complex.


STOP MAKING THESE THREADS!!! I'm done for real. You losers just want someone to pick on. I'm not gonna play anymore.

GoAt
26th Nov 2001, 01:46 AM
cat you still havent answerd my question about the virgin mary. like i said the ONLY way for it to be provin she was a virgin would be to examine her hymen (unless she was a chronic masturbator)

and i want FACTUAL proof, not some folktales that are in a book. anyone can write a book and say it was real. i want visual proof, not of just god, but all of that crap thats in the bible, (I.E. splitting of the red sea, the ark, the rumored "light" that you see when you die, why hell is depicted the way it is (did someone die and then comeback just to say "Oh By the way, hell is filled with fire and pain, just though i would let you all know") and if its stated that the next "cleansing" will be in the form of fire, and not water. why hasnt it come yet? and when it does, who gets to survive and who gets to die? i would find it impossible for every christian to build somthing to survive a worldwide blaze.

Frostblood
26th Nov 2001, 02:09 AM
Goat : David killed goliath because he would have killed more people had he not done so. Net effect = lives saved.

All those other things you mentioned are answered by free will : Had He not given us that, there would have been no point in creating anything at all because there would be noone to appreciate it.

There is actaully medically a possibility that mary could have given birth to a child without sexual intercourse. It relys on genetic disorders and a massive element of chance but theoretically, it could happen. Of course, the chances of it happenening are miraculously small, but the point is it doesnt require any contravention of the laws of nature to acheive. Why would God break his own rules?

By the way GoaT, there is more evidence for much of the occourances in the bible than in much accepted historical facts. Theres no such thing as proof anyway, only evidence.


But I agree with prophet, these threads are ultimatly pointless and we've had far too many recently. Leave it a while before starting another one, if you have to at all.

Vendetta
26th Nov 2001, 02:09 AM
things didnt start out complex. just like our technology we had very humble beginings. but we have time, lots of time for nature to try different ways of building things. you start out small and build upon what you know. its not like humans and other higher life forms were here the moment earth was created. it had to start with single celled organisms and became more complex from there. so complexity is not a confirmation of a God. Why is it animals dont give a crap about the concept of God? We are the only beings who have a concept of God. That doesnt mean there is one.

Frostblood
26th Nov 2001, 02:13 AM
How do you know animals dont have a concept of God anyway??? And did you know that if gravity was one millionth stronger the universe would have ended before it was a second old...the point is this will never be resolved. For every argument on either side there is a counterargument and it will never be proven either way. And its been discussed to death on these forums.

Cat Fuzz
26th Nov 2001, 02:17 AM
I hearby decalre this thread DEAD DEAD!!! DEAD!!!



/me wacks it another time for good measure.

Stilgar
26th Nov 2001, 03:04 AM
Originally posted by Cat Fuzz
scuse me whilst I bash my head into a wall. Gotta make sure theres a stud there for maximum effect.



I KNOW there is a God. I've always known. Universes don't just happen by accident. Way to complex. My body, to complex to be an accident. Nature, to complex.


STOP MAKING THESE THREADS!!! I'm done for real. You losers just want someone to pick on. I'm not gonna play anymore.

weak

lucifix
26th Nov 2001, 04:17 AM
Originally posted by Cat Fuzz
I KNOW there is a God. I've always known. Universes don't just happen by accident. Way to complex. My body, to complex to be an accident. Nature, to complex im going to try and reply without being a dickhead :lol:

first of all you DONT know god exists, thats where faith comes in. And if you think the universe is too complex to happen by accident then what about god. He is a LOT more complexed than this ****ty universe, does htat mean HE has a creator???

and I really wish people would do a little research on the word "virgin"...........in those days the word virgin DID NOT mean you havent been ****ed it ment a woman that hasnt given BIRTH, so yes the whore mary was a virgin, but I'm sure joseph ****ed her brains out daily.............

lucifix
26th Nov 2001, 04:37 AM
With her title "Holy Virgin," Mary joined the ranks of many other Goddesses with the same title: Athena, Asherah, Astarte, Aphrodite, Venus, Anat, Ishtar, Diana, and others. Clearly, since many of these Goddesses are also "Love Goddesses," the ancient meaning of the word "virgin" differs from our modern conception. "Virgin" indicated an independent autonomous woman, a woman not required to answer to any man or child. The title had little to do with abstinence from sexual intercourse

The word often translated as "virgin" in biblical texts of Hebrew origin was "almah," which actually meant "unmarried woman." Yet early church fathers translated this as "a sexually chaste woman" in the days of the early church, entrenching that meaning in Christianity. "The interpretation of the virgin birth as the moral sanction of the goodness of sexual chastity was the overwhelming and distinctive contribution of the Christian religion to the ancient mythological formula"

As noted earlier, Love Goddesses were often entitled Virgin. In addition, Virgin was a common title for sacred temple prostitutes, also called "The Brides of God," another title Mary came to share (A).

This may seem shocking at first, but perhaps not quite so shocking when we realize that we are back to the ancient definition: Virgin indicated an independent autonomous woman, a woman not required to answer to any man or child, a woman free to take lovers as she so chose (A, B, *). So many of us have been taught to view sex as such a sinful, negative, violent or lustful act that it is difficult to get our minds around the concept of sacred sex.

Yet sex was sacred in ancient times. "The function of such 'holy virgins' was to dispense the Mother's grace through sexual worship; to heal; to prophesy; to perform sacred dances; to wail for the dead; and to become the Brides of God".

In the Apocryphal Book of James, Anna, Mary's mother, promises her to the temple, and Mary is taken there when she is three. "And she danced with her feet, and all the house of Israel loved her" (Book of James 7:2). The Jewish temples did not accept girls, but the Goddess temples did. Accounts such as this give rise to speculation that Mary was dedicated to a Goddess temple.

Stilgar
26th Nov 2001, 05:03 AM
Originally posted by Cat Fuzz
scuse me whilst I bash my head into a wall. Gotta make sure theres a stud there for maximum effect.



I KNOW there is a God. I've always known. Universes don't just happen by accident. Way to complex. My body, to complex to be an accident. Nature, to complex.


STOP MAKING THESE THREADS!!! I'm done for real. You losers just want someone to pick on. I'm not gonna play anymore.

what you mean to say is.. you believe you know... right ?
believer

Ulukai
26th Nov 2001, 10:47 AM
Yeah, well nothing says "Small Penis" quite like a Porsche

Claw
26th Nov 2001, 11:25 AM
Originally posted by Mister_Prophet
Wow u losers still practice these "religious debates".
(...) Take your pic, but leave the religious b.s. to God and science.

Seems like religious debates share some attributes with black holes; you don't like them, especially not up close, but still you're attracted by them, or what's you post doing in this thead? :con:

Besides, I think that in the end, you can just leave everthing to someone else really. I care more about science than about some stoopid game console, so I guess posting here is OK for me :p

Claw
26th Nov 2001, 11:48 AM
Originally posted by Cat Fuzz
scuse me whilst I bash my head into a wall. Gotta make sure theres a stud there for maximum effect.



I KNOW there is a God. I've always known. Universes don't just happen by accident. Way to complex. My body, to complex to be an accident. Nature, to complex.


STOP MAKING THESE THREADS!!! I'm done for real. You losers just want someone to pick on. I'm not gonna play anymore.

1. Maybe it helps :rolleyes:

2. I hate to say it, but they do. complex? Bah. Think about atoms. A huge core, whose massive force holds the smaller elecrons around it together. Most of it is really empty space. Think about solar systems. A huge sun; it's massive gravitational pull holds the outer planets in their orbits. Most of the solar system is really empty space. Think about galaxies. A black hole (likely, or another mass if you don't take my word on it :rolleyes: ) holding the solar systems in an orbit around it. How original. Always the same principle, with slight variations. :p

3. STOP POSTING IN THESE THREADS!!! I'm fed up with your pointless remarks. You loser just voice religios propaganda. You'd make a very, very poor preacher. Stop fooling around. :rolleyes:

Rukee
26th Nov 2001, 12:09 PM
Life has many choises....
eternity has two....
What`s your choise????





when you think.....
you will thank.

Vendetta
26th Nov 2001, 02:44 PM
How do you know animals dont have a concept of God anyway???

i have never heard one animal tell me it believes in God. and they dont seem overly concerned with good and evil either. animals are only concerned with feeding, fighting, and ****ing.

Rabid Wolf
26th Nov 2001, 03:01 PM
don't mess with heat packing senior citizens...

Mister_Prophet
26th Nov 2001, 03:46 PM
Me is mooning all of you, but you can't tell because you can't see it.

Frostblood
26th Nov 2001, 04:20 PM
"i have never heard one animal tell me it believes in God. and they dont seem overly concerned with good and evil either. animals are only concerned with feeding, fighting, and ****ing."

My cat never tells me shes an aetheist. Therefore, by your logic, she's a fanatic, secret worshipper of some evil cat god :lol:

Also, as you yourself have stated, from a distance we must look like all we care about is feeding, fighting and ****ing. Which in fact is true of many people. But 95% of people believe in God so this logic doesnt hold true either.

I'm not saying that animals do believe in God* but merely that you cant be sure they dont, and demonstarting that the religious argument cannot be resolved.

* although maybe my cat thinks of me as God. Maybe we are all the pets of some giant cat in the sky. Maybe i should stop now.

Vendetta
26th Nov 2001, 07:29 PM
my point was that animals dont have the mental capacity to have "ideas". God is an idea.

if animals were capable of higher thought and the idea of God, they would have already made it evident.

So your theory of "maybe they do" is surely lacking.

Stilgar
26th Nov 2001, 08:30 PM
"But 95% of people believe in God so this logic doesnt hold true either." - Frostblood

where on earth did you get that statistic ?

Cat Fuzz
26th Nov 2001, 08:44 PM
Originally posted by Stilgar
"But 95% of people believe in God so this logic doesnt hold true either." - Frostblood

where on earth did you get that statistic ?

We took a poll. :p

lucifix
26th Nov 2001, 09:53 PM
and no reply to my post?????

Rukee
26th Nov 2001, 10:01 PM
Originally posted by lucifix
and no reply to my post?????
You`ll get use to that after awhile!! :p

Caution
26th Nov 2001, 10:12 PM
What shall I say? You guys are all idiots. You start a religious thread in a forum that's about killing people and performing pelvic thrusts in front of large crowds. Go to church once in awhile if you wanna have a debate on religion.

And yes, I am a Christian. And yes, Jesus did die on the cross. And yes, you guys would all be burning in Hell if it wasn't for Him.

Rukee
26th Nov 2001, 10:13 PM
Ya!!!
Listen to the BUTT-Fantasizer!!!! :p

Caution
26th Nov 2001, 10:21 PM
Don't reply to my elite posts foo!!!

Skorch
26th Nov 2001, 10:21 PM
To not believe in God, you have to fanatically convince yourself that order spontaneously emerges from chaos.

Caution
26th Nov 2001, 10:30 PM
So... there! :)

JTRipper
27th Nov 2001, 01:43 AM
Originally posted by Cat Fuzz


Also, could you please make me aware of the problems you speak of?

The prophesy I'm referring to was Isaiah's prophesy to King Ahaz of Judah concerning the resolution of the upcoming war with Israel and Syria - "Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Immanuel.". The principal problem is that there is some evidence that Matthew's gospel may have been "tweaked" to make it appear that Jesus had fulfilled the prophesy. In the original it was written in the hebrew perfect tense, indicating that it had already come to pass - not that it would happen hundreds of years after the king was dead.

This might have happened after Alexander swept through Egypt and settled Alexandria (circa 200 BC?), and the Jews had to adopt Greek - apparently there was much embelishment to the original histories. The original hebrew texts were translated, and what emerged was the original text with a few alterations, as well as added passages and even books. The Septaugint was fairly mutilated. As you might be guessing, there's a lot more controversy than just Isaiah's prophesy that has risen from this (like Methusaleh living 14 years beyond the flood, and the dates of creation being off by over 1000 years). Thanks to a special kind of guy, Bishop Theophilus, answers are hard to come by - he was kind enough to burn the Library of Alexandria, containing the originals and 700,000 other texts. At any rate, the tense of the prophesy was screwed with.

As a side note, a lot of what was done in Alexandria was discarded by the church somewhere around the second century AD; one can only assume that they went back to something closer to the original. I don't know who did this, or exactly what they did - like I said, answers are hard to come by (thanks, holy guys!).

And there's also the matter of Jerome (St. Jerome, to be exact), a scribe/monk who did some translation work on the bible (circa 400 AD). The Church had a greek version of the bible, and a latin version, and there were some inconsistencies between the two. He translated the Sepatugint from the Church's greek version to latin for the Vatican to "smooth out" some of the inconsistencies. Then he later left the Vatican, went back to transcriptions of the original hebrew text, and came up with something different again. He apparently rendered a few words misleadingly in Matthew and elsewhere, like "almah" and "bethulah" - respectively "a young woman of marriageable age (regardless of marital status or virginity)", and "a virgin". He was later pressed to confess what he had done, and said that he had written a "lie to the glory of God." The church ignored his confession, preferring to stick with the more romantic version he had previously rendered. His "new" version is what you might now know as the Vulgate, or the Church's "accepted" translation. Now, re-read the line of the prophesy -

"Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Immanuel."

In direct translation to english, it apparently would read closer to

"Behold, the young woman has conceived, and beareth a son and calleth his name Immanuel."

I barely speak a word of hebrew, so I'm relying on what seems to be the commonly accepted translation. If you know someone who's fairly fluent, here's the hebrew from a transcription of the original Isaiah 7:14

"Hinneh ha-almah harah ve-yeldeth ben ve-karath shem-o Immanuel"

There's even more problems with the prophesy than that. It's most often taken entirely out of context, since that's the only way it can be considered a messianic prophesy fulfilled by Jesus. Take in the whole history of that passage, and you'll see the inconsistencies. To get you started, take a look at Isaiah vii:

First, God sends Isaiah to Ahaz to tell him "It shall not stand, neither shall it come to pass" and so forth. Then, next thing you know -

"Moreover Yahveh spake again unto Ahaz saying, ask thee a sign of Yahveh thy God; ask it either in the depth, or in the height above".

That could be explained away by saying that God had already spoken to Ahaz, he just used Isaiah the first time. But wait, there's more

"And he said, Hear ye now, O house of David; It is a small thing for you to weary men, but will ye weary my God also? "

Wait a minute, I thought God was doing the talking. No wonder the Bible confuses people. We move on to the maid bearing a child and all, and then -

"Butter and honey shall he eat, that he may know to refuse the evil, and choose the good. For before the child shall know to refuse the evil, and choose the good, the land that thou abhorrest shall be forsaken of both her kings."

Ok, I'm still a little confused as to who is talking, but it's commonly accepted that it's Isaiah. I don't know what eating butter or honey has to do with refusing evil and choosing good, but here's the deal - this is a prophesy about the upcoming war. Isaiah is telling Ahaz that he doesn't have to worry about the war, that both the kings of Syria and Israel will be dead when the child is young. When you take the direct translation of the prophesy, that means that he's talking about the son of a woman who is already pregnant, not a woman who'll be pregnant 3/4 of a millenium later. It makes perfect sense that way. Er, except the butter and honey thing. But then again, Isaiah rattled off a lot of gibberish. If you take the adopted translation as referring to Mary, then what does the prophesy have to do with the war? Nothing, everyone's dead by then anyway.

JTRipper
27th Nov 2001, 01:57 AM
Originally posted by lucifix
With her title "Holy Virgin," Mary joined the ranks of many other Goddesses with the same title: Athena, Asherah, Astarte, Aphrodite, Venus, Anat, Ishtar, Diana, and others. Clearly, since many of these Goddesses are also "Love Goddesses," the ancient meaning of the word "virgin" differs from our modern conception. "Virgin" indicated an independent autonomous woman, a woman not required to answer to any man or child. The title had little to do with abstinence from sexual intercourse

The word often translated as "virgin" in biblical texts of Hebrew origin was "almah," which actually meant "unmarried woman." Yet early church fathers translated this as "a sexually chaste woman" in the days of the early church, entrenching that meaning in Christianity. "The interpretation of the virgin birth as the moral sanction of the goodness of sexual chastity was the overwhelming and distinctive contribution of the Christian religion to the ancient mythological formula"

As noted earlier, Love Goddesses were often entitled Virgin. In addition, Virgin was a common title for sacred temple prostitutes, also called "The Brides of God," another title Mary came to share (A).

"Almah" doesn't carry any implication of marital status, or chastity; just a girl or young woman of marriageable age. As touched on in my previous post, "bethulah" is, and was, virgin, and has always had the meaning it does today. "Almah" appeared only 7 times in transcripts of the original hebrew of the old testament, and "bethulah" 50 times. A few examples

Rebekah was a "bethulah, neither had any man known her" (Gen. xxiv, 16)

"He shall take a wife in her virginity [bethulah]. A widow, or a divorced woman, or profane, or a harlot, these shall he not take: but he shall take a virgin [bethulah]" (Lev. xxi, 13, 14)

"If a damsel [naarah] that is a virgin [bethulah] be betrothed," etc. (Deut. xxii, 23)

If a husband find his new wife "not a maid [bethulah]," then on his complaint her parents must "bring forth the tokens of the virginity [bethulah] of the maid [naarah]" (Deut. xxii, 14, 15)

Jephthah's daughter, doomed to be a living sacrifice to Yahveh, asked time to "bewail my virginity [bethulah]" (Judges xi, 37, 38)

Each time, the technical sense of a virgin is pretty clear. I don't know where you copy/pasted that crap from, but it doesn't seem very credible. As for sex in religion, you should see some excerpts from books that weren't cannonized. Solomon in particular might make Penthouse Forum readers blush.

Just what are tokens of virginity anyway?

JTRipper
27th Nov 2001, 02:01 AM
Originally posted by Caution
What shall I say? You guys are all idiots. You start a religious thread in a forum that's about killing people and performing pelvic thrusts in front of large crowds. Go to church once in awhile if you wanna have a debate on religion.

And yes, I am a Christian. And yes, Jesus did die on the cross. And yes, you guys would all be burning in Hell if it wasn't for Him.

Already? I'm not even dead yet! That sucks.

Enlighten me a bit - where do I find a church with a Q&A session, or an open debate? I've been to Catholic, Methodist, Lutheran, and churches of a few other denominations; none of them let me debate religion, they all just told me what to think. I'd be interested in finding one like yours.

BangOut
27th Nov 2001, 02:07 AM
huytuy

lucifix
27th Nov 2001, 02:09 AM
Originally posted by JTRipper
Each time, the technical sense of a virgin is pretty clear. I don't know where you copy/pasted that crap from, but it doesn't seem very credible. As for sex in religion, you should see some excerpts from books that weren't cannonized. Solomon in particular might make Penthouse Forum readers blush. NOT the only place I've read it........

JTRipper
27th Nov 2001, 02:19 AM
Originally posted by lucifix
NOT the only place I've read it........

I don't care if it's painted on every wall in your city, and read on the 6:00 news - it's clearly not true, and the most innocent assumption I can make is that it's just sloppy research. Where did you get it?

Frostblood
27th Nov 2001, 02:24 AM
What shall I say? You guys are all idiots. You start a religious thread in a forum that's about killing people and performing pelvic thrusts in front of large crowds. Go to church once in awhile if you wanna have a debate on religion.

And yes, I am a Christian. And yes, Jesus did die on the cross. And yes, you guys would all be burning in Hell if it wasn't for Him.

Well...not really. you see ( most of us ) are actually intelligent individuals who can have a discussion, and not idiots. And anyway, going to church is the worst place to have a debate on religion because there will be mainly religious people there, so it wouldn't be much of a debate.

Vendetta : What i meant was that we must seem like we are incapable of higher thought and yet we have religion, so maybe we are underestimating animal intelligence. They almost certainly dont have a sophisticated idea of God but I think they do have emotions...

lucifix
27th Nov 2001, 03:05 AM
Originally posted by JTRipper


I don't care if it's painted on every wall in your city, and read on the 6:00 news - it's clearly not true, and the most innocent assumption I can make is that it's just sloppy research. Where did you get it? simply use a search engine........

lucifix
27th Nov 2001, 03:53 AM
Both Matthew and Luke stated that Jesus; conception was not a commonplace one. In these gospels Mary was a virgin who became pregnant, not through sexual intercourse, but through the "power of the Holy Spirit" (Matthew 1:18; Luke 1:34-35). The gospel of Matthew explicitly mentioned that this virgin pregnancy took place in fulfillment of the scriptures:
Matthew 1:22-23
And this took place to fulfill what the Lord had said through the prophet: "The virgin is with child and will give birth to a son, and they will call him Immanuel-which means 'God is with us'".


Matthew is quoting the book of Isaiah (7:14) from the Septuagint. The word for virgin is rendered in the Greek Bible as parthenos. This word carries the explicit meaning of virgin. However, if we are to look at the Bible in its original Hebrew, from the massoretic text, the word used there is almah. Now the nearest English translation for almah is a young woman and does not carry with it any strong connotation of virginity. To show how far almah is from the meaning of virginity, I have quoted below some passages from the Old Testament where the word was used:

The word is used to describe occupants of a harem in the Songs of Solomon:

Songs of Solomon 6:8
There are sixty queens and eight concubines, and almah without number.


The occupants of harems are not, as a rule, virgins.
Finally we have a passage from Proverbs:

Proverbs 30:18-19
Three things are too wonderful for me; four I do not understand; the way of an eagle in the sky, the way of a serpent on a rock, the way of a ship in the midst of the sea, and the way of a man in an almah.


Surely it could not be a virgin that is being referred to above. So while the use of the Hebrew word can sometimes mean a young girl of marriable age, as for instance, when it was applied to Rebecca before her marriage to Isaac (Genesis 24:43), sometimes simply a woman (see Proverbs 30:18-19 above) and sometimes even for women in a harem!

If the author of Isaiah wanted to make clear the prophecy, he would not have used the word almah for all the ambiguity that it entails. He would have chosen the Hebrew word that does explicitly mean a virgin: bethulah. This word would have been the Hebrew equivalent for the Greek parthenos. The Greek equivalent for almah should actually be neanis, which means young woman.

Matthew's assertion of the virgin birth being prophesied in the scripture is therefore based on a mistranslation of the Hebrew word for a young woman. The virgin birth is nowhere prophesied in the original Hebrew.

Stilgar
27th Nov 2001, 04:42 AM
Originally posted by Caution
What shall I say? You guys are all idiots. You start a religious thread in a forum that's about killing people and performing pelvic thrusts in front of large crowds. Go to church once in awhile if you wanna have a debate on religion.

And yes, I am a Christian. And yes, Jesus did die on the cross. And yes, you guys would all be burning in Hell if it wasn't for Him.

ok I believe you .....now what ?

lucifix
27th Nov 2001, 04:49 AM
ALL of the christ WHORE'S should be lined up and ****ing executed..........

JTRipper
27th Nov 2001, 04:51 AM
Sorry Lucifix, I might have not made clear what I was saying was crap - I don't dispute that what people commonly believe or what's printed in the bible isn't what was originally there.

Originally posted by lucifix
the ancient meaning of the word "virgin" differs from our modern conception. "Virgin" indicated an independent autonomous woman, a woman not required to answer to any man or child. The title had little to do with abstinence from sexual intercourse

Examples I've posted show this to be crap. The meaning of "bethulah" hasn't changed. And since it wasn't originally written as virgin, what does this matter? Irrelevant smoke.

Originally posted by lucifix
The word often translated as "virgin" in biblical texts of Hebrew origin was "almah," which actually meant "unmarried woman."

It has nothing to do with marriage; just marriageable age. An almah may be a married or unmarried woman. It only appeared 7 times in the text - it was rendered once as "damsel", twice as "maid", and four times as "virgin" - not exactly what I'd call often. In fact, I might rather say "selectively".

Originally posted by lucifix
Yet early church fathers translated this as "a sexually chaste woman" in the days of the early church, entrenching that meaning in Christianity.

And again, "early church fathers" didn't translate it as virgin - you can thank Jerome for that. In fact, I don't think he was even ordained until after he had translated the Septaugint for the Vatican, and he never had a ministry. He did have a monastery, but I think that came some time after he had penned the Vulgate.

Originally posted by lucifix
"The interpretation of the virgin birth as the moral sanction of the goodness of sexual chastity was the overwhelming and distinctive contribution of the Christian religion to the ancient mythological formula"

Actually, this is a more modern idea. Well, within the last few hundred years anyway. The ancients were nowhere as puritanical as people commonly believe. I just get the impression that the author of that piece is either A) relating poorly remembered hearsay and just doesn't know what they're talking about, or b) poorly relating hearsay in order to put the desired spin on it. A quick trip to any theoligian's library would have cleared up most of that; hence my assertion that any research by the author was patheticly sloppy. Seriously, where did you get that?

lucifix
27th Nov 2001, 04:57 AM
And since it wasn't originally written as virgin, what does this matter?

it doesnt, well to me anyway. i'm just pointing it out to the ignorant bastards who think she was an un-fuked saint.......

Frostblood
27th Nov 2001, 09:14 AM
it doesnt, well to me anyway. i'm just pointing it out to the ignorant bastards who think she was an un-fuked saint.......

It makes sense actually if she used to be a prositute. Forgiveness : If a prostitute can give birth to God, then it shows that God is willing to forgive everyone...

Ulukai
27th Nov 2001, 09:23 AM
http://www2.pair.com/wacky/originals/series1/pictures/horrid.jpg

Frostblood
27th Nov 2001, 02:08 PM
it does now ;)

Vendetta
27th Nov 2001, 04:04 PM
95% of people believe in God? you cant even say 95% of the worlds people have even heard of "our" God.

and by the looks of this thread alone your statistics have dropped to about 50-50.

BangOut
27th Nov 2001, 04:11 PM
thread
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Sven_ya!
27th Nov 2001, 04:16 PM
Originally posted by Ulukai
Yeah, well nothing says "Small Penis" quite like a Porsche

Actually, Porche just says 50-year-old Viagara addict. SUVs are what say "Small Penis."

JTRipper
27th Nov 2001, 04:39 PM
Thanks for your insightful, topical, and constructive contribution, Bangout. :Poop:

Help yourself to some cookies in the other BuF forums.

Rukee
27th Nov 2001, 05:13 PM
Originally posted by BangOut
thread
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Nice! http://forums.beyondunreal.com/images/icons/icon6.gif

diddlysquat
27th Nov 2001, 06:15 PM
Pride you took
pride you feel
pride that you felt when you'd kneel

not the word
not the love
not what you thought from above

it feeds
it grows
it clouds all that you will know
deceit
deceive
decide just what you believe

I see faith in your eyes
never your hear the discouraging lies
I hear faith in your cries
broken is the promise, betrayal
the healing hand held back by the deepened nail

follow the god that failed

find your peace
find your say
find the smooth road in your way

trust you gave
a child to save
left you cold and him in grave

it feeds
it grows
it clouds all that you will know
deceit
deceive
decide just what you believe

I see faith in your eyes
never you hear the discouraging lies
I hear faith in your cries
broken is the promise, betrayal
the healing hand held back by the deepened nail

follow the god that failed

I see faith in your eyes
broken is the promise, betrayal
the healing hand held back by the deepened nail

follow the god that failed

pride you took
pride you feel
pride that you felt when you'd kneel

trust you gave
a child to save
left you cold and him in grave

I see faith in your eyes
never you hear the discouraging lies
I hear faith in your cries
broken is the promise, betrayal
the healing hand held back by deepened nail

follow the god that failed

diddlysquat
27th Nov 2001, 06:24 PM
Have you ever thought about your soul
- can it be saved?
Or perhaps you think that when you're dead
you just stay in your grave
Is God just a thought within your head
or is he a part of you?
Is Christ just a name that you read in a book
when you were in school?

When you think about death
do you lose your breath or do you keep your cool?
Would you like to see the Pope on the end of a rope
- do you think he's a fool?
Well I have seen the truth,
yes I've seen the light and I've changed my ways
And I'll be prepared when you're lonely and scared
at the end of our days

Could it be you're afraid
of what your friends might say
If they knew you believe in God above?
They should realize before they criticize
that God is the only way to love

Is your mind so small that you have to fall
In with the pack wherever they run
Will you still sneer when death is near
And say they may as well worship the sun?

I think it was true
it was people like you that crucified Christ
I think it is sad
the opinion you had was the only one voiced
Will you be so sure when your day is near,
say you don't believe?
You had the chance but you turned it down,
now you can't retrieve

Perhaps you'll think before you say
that God is dead and gone
Open your eyes, just realize that he's the one
The only one who can save you now
from all this sin and hate
Or will you still jeer at all you hear?
Yes! I think it's too late.

Claw
27th Nov 2001, 06:27 PM
Originally posted by Stilgar
"But 95% of people believe in God so this logic doesnt hold true either." - Frostblood

where on earth did you get that statistic ?


Originally posted by Cat Fuzz


We took a poll. :p


What people? Chinese? Indian? Arabian? Oh, wait. You asked white citizens of the United States of America, 'cos the rest of the world is so insignificant it would merely alter the result by a few per cent.

Claw
27th Nov 2001, 07:08 PM
Originally posted by Caution
What shall I say? You guys are all idiots. You start a religious thread in a forum that's about killing people and performing pelvic thrusts in front of large crowds. Go to church once in awhile if you wanna have a debate on religion.

And yes, I am a Christian. And yes, Jesus did die on the cross. And yes, you guys would all be burning in Hell if it wasn't for Him.


Me neva kill 've no un :rolleyes:

An' a pelvic trust 's lame gestuer an'way...

It soo coold... 've to sa' thx to jesus fo' tis? B-bastard.



What, me sarcastic? Never. Ever.

oosyxxx
27th Nov 2001, 07:14 PM
I think everyone is overlooking a crucial point ... WHO THE **** CARES?

Claw
27th Nov 2001, 07:22 PM
Originally posted by oosyxxx
I think everyone is overlooking a crucial point ... WHO THE **** CARES?


Well, someone started this thread, and someone kept replying or why didn't it disappear in the depth of the forum already, like so many threads before? Because people bloody keep replying. :p

PS:
Considering well over 600 views, a LOT of people ;)

Mister_Prophet
28th Nov 2001, 12:31 AM
All i care about is the fact that im mooning you guys and theres not a damn thing u can do about it!

Nuke u!:redeemer:

JTRipper
28th Nov 2001, 12:36 AM
Bangout and Rukee are the cleavarest.

BangOut
28th Nov 2001, 12:53 AM
i've tried my damndest to get it to stop since reply #1 but my cleverest reply evAr! did not work

JTRipper
28th Nov 2001, 01:02 AM
Right. The point is that it just isn't going to stop, and you knew it before you posted that latest bit of jackass spammage. And you chose such an opportune moment to try to drag the thread into complete blubbering drivel - the point at which it was finally promising to resemble a discussion. Hell, even Lucifix did something that almost resembled research. If it really bothers you, don't read it. It's as easy as not clicking the link.

Stilgar
28th Nov 2001, 02:04 AM
Originally posted by JTRipper
Right. The point is that it just isn't going to stop, and you knew it before you posted that latest bit of jackass spammage. And you chose such an opportune moment to try to drag the thread into complete blubbering drivel - the point at which it was finally promising to resemble a discussion. Hell, even Lucifix did something that almost resembled research. If it really bothers you, don't read it. It's as easy as not clicking the link.

people are trying to debate religion on a gaming bbs.... what other outcome cold there possibly be than a load of "blubbering drivel"

" NO!, my god is real.. repent... WAAA WAAAA"

" NO he is not, I dont believe ! WAAA WAAAA"

" I can prove things by believing I know something and calling it fact... WAAA WAAAA"

that is what you mean by blubbering isn't it ?

Fuct
28th Nov 2001, 02:19 AM
:o

Bah_Mee
28th Nov 2001, 05:02 AM
had to say it,

Jesus save me from your followers!


by the way they found a planet in another solar system that had sodium in its atmosphere! Now how are the creationists gonna defend themselves hehe!

Frostblood
28th Nov 2001, 05:46 AM
"95% of people believe in God? you cant even say 95% of the worlds people have even heard of "our" God."

I didnt say which God. I meant 95% of people in the world believe in some form of deity, although this statistic is a few years old so it may be lower now.

This is not a gaming BBS anyway, its a mapping BBS, although many people here do not actually map, so there is nothing wrong with debating important things here...look at Cactus's two political threads for examples of mature debate...

Frostblood
28th Nov 2001, 05:50 AM
"by the way they found a planet in another solar system that had sodium in its atmosphere! Now how are the creationists gonna defend themselves hehe!"

Sodium? Whats that got to do with anything? And anyway, that sort of evidence isnt going to stop creationists because there are already other planets in our own system, as well as well-documented ones elsewhere.

Bah_Mee
28th Nov 2001, 06:01 AM
the whole idea is having an atmosphere with any type of sustainable air or the idea of any form of gas or chemical compound. This makes it more plausible that there may be life out there since we evolved from the micro organisms(like it or not!). The creationists believe humans just appeared out of nowhere and only one man and one woman!?:rolleyes:

what makes me laugh is that humans and monkeys have almost the same gene code. When I told this to a bible thumper who was arguing about creation vs. evolution he acted like I insulted him! "I am not related to a Monkey!" What a ignorant man!

and by the way no offence! :D

lucifix
28th Nov 2001, 06:06 AM
Originally posted by Bah_Mee
the whole idea is having an atmosphere with any type of sustainable air or the idea of any form of gas or chemical compound. This makes it more plausible that there may be life out there since we evolved from the micro organisms(like it or not!). The creationists believe humans just appeared out of nowhere and only one man and one woman!?:rolleyes:

what makes me laugh is that humans and monkeys have almost the same gene code. When I told this to a bible thumper who was arguing about creation vs. evolution he acted like I insulted him! "I am not related to a Monkey!" What a ignorant man!

and by the way no offence! :D so what if we are a hell of a lot like apes? we're also a hell of a lot different! maybe we came from apes, maybe god crapped us out his arse, or hell lets go a little farther and say some alien race are farming our sorry ass'................makes no difference how you look at it cause in the end everyone knows humans really dont fit in with the rest of the life on earth..............

Claw
28th Nov 2001, 08:51 AM
Originally posted by Frostblood
"95% of people believe in God? you cant even say 95% of the worlds people have even heard of "our" God."

I didnt say which God. I meant 95% of people in the world believe in some form of deity, although this statistic is a few years old so it may be lower now.


Oh, c'mon. That's cheap. You didn write "a god" but "God" and you know that means the Christian God. That's what people will understand at least, and you can't tell me you don't know that 'cos you are too intelligent, or so I thought.
I did notice a certain drop in some guys intellectual level after the move from PU though... :con:



Originally posted by Bah_Mee
what makes me laugh is that humans and monkeys have almost the same gene code. When I told this to a bible thumper who was arguing about creation vs. evolution he acted like I insulted him! "I am not related to a Monkey!" What a ignorant man!

and by the way no offence! :D

Well, we had this discussion here as well, and as I said before: God just ran out of original ideas, so he started ripping off older designs. :p

Ulukai
28th Nov 2001, 10:02 AM
And weeeee!

Rukee
28th Nov 2001, 10:19 AM
LMAO!!!!!

Frostblood
28th Nov 2001, 03:05 PM
Oh, c'mon. That's cheap. You didn write "a god" but "God" and you know that means the Christian God. That's what people will understand at least, and you can't tell me you don't know that 'cos you are too intelligent, or so I thought.
I did notice a certain drop in some guys intellectual level after the move from PU though...

:) I naturally wrote it with a capital because I always do...sorry. But it wouldnt have been as punchy as "95% of people believe in God ( or Allah, or Buddah, ....etc ).

Claw
28th Nov 2001, 03:39 PM
Originally posted by Frostblood
:) I naturally wrote it with a capital because I always do...sorry. But it wouldnt have been as punchy as "95% of people believe in God ( or Allah, or Buddah, ....etc ).

Oh, well. But I still don't buy it. 'Cos the gods in Buddhism and Hundu don't count IMO. In those religions gods are just a higher form of life, not too special. :p

Oh, and Buddah doesn't count either. He's a man. A special man, yes, but no god. A human being. All he was came from within.

Skorch
28th Nov 2001, 09:09 PM
Originally posted by Bah_Mee
the whole idea is having an atmosphere with any type of sustainable air or the idea of any form of gas or chemical compound. This makes it more plausible that there may be life out there since we evolved from the micro organisms(like it or not!). The creationists believe humans just appeared out of nowhere and only one man and one woman!?:rolleyes:

what makes me laugh is that humans and monkeys have almost the same gene code. When I told this to a bible thumper who was arguing about creation vs. evolution he acted like I insulted him! "I am not related to a Monkey!" What a ignorant man!

and by the way no offence! :D

If u believe science is God or God is God, it really dosn't matter...either way you have no point of beginning for creation, so believing we evolved from simple compounds on Earth begs the question "where did Earth come from?...or the stars?...or dimension itself?" the answer is the same as if you ask "where did God come from?" we don't know....so your sad following of a THEORY of evolution that never held water requires a leap of faith even greater than religeon, because it is far easier to believe that the complexity of life was engineered than it is to believe it simply "happened"

...many microbiologists are coming to believe this as they study how interrelated and mind-boggling complex even the simplest DNA is.

Frostblood
29th Nov 2001, 05:10 AM
If u believe science is God or God is God, it really dosn't matter...either way you have no point of beginning for creation, so believing we evolved from simple compounds on Earth begs the question "where did Earth come from?...or the stars?...or dimension itself?" the answer is the same as if you ask "where did God come from?" we don't know....so your sad following of a THEORY of evolution that never held water requires a leap of faith even greater than religeon, because it is far easier to believe that the complexity of life was engineered than it is to believe it simply "happened"

...many microbiologists are coming to believe this as they study how interrelated and mind-boggling complex even the simplest DNA is.

I believe in God and I believe in evoloution. Evoloution is no more a theory than gravity or the periodic table : it can be seen to happen, the fossil record shows it happened. Nothing is ever proven, but evolotuon is as sure as any other theory which is taken for granted today. DNA is incredibly complex, but think of this : a protein in your body may consist of thousands of amino acids in a massive chain. It has to fold up into exactly the right shape to work, or you'll die. Yet almost every time, it folds exactly right, because of simple electomagnetic forces between the different atoms. There are thousands of atoms, with only 5 or 6 different types, all interacting in very simple ways, and from this a protein can fold exactly into the right shape every time. Order can occour out of 'chaos' and does on a regular basis every day in your cells.

The question is not why we are the way we are, but why anything is at all.

Stilgar
29th Nov 2001, 07:12 AM
just curous....when was the last time a religion admitted it was fundamentally wrong and re-wrote some of it's teachings ? .... ......
...any takers ?

Frostblood
29th Nov 2001, 12:43 PM
The Pope admitted that demons didnt actually exist a few years ago. But they have no reason to change the fundamental religious texts as, apart from anything else, in many cases they are the main historical records on many events, e.g the exodus from egypt, which is an accepted fact.

lucifix
29th Nov 2001, 12:49 PM
In a dream or a nightmare
When love gives way to hate
The quest begins
For the keys to the seven gates
Ride the wings of a locust
See the wizard cast his spell
Search for the keys to
The seven gates of Hell

In Heavens Hell
Where all evil dwells
And man and beast are one
Conceiled to all
Reveiled to none
Lie those infernal gates
Thoses damned infernal gates

The seven gates of Hell

Hear the cry of the zombie
Raid the body of its soul
The quest for the sacred keys
Has become its goal
Steal the wings of a hydra
Take the sword from the sacred shrine
The strength of the beast
Take the sinners mind

Unveiled in death to the sinner
Written in the ancient book of lies
Hear the demons call
>From the crimson waterfall
As the blood rains from the skies

When realities a dream
And every lie is true
In the day when you are me
And the night when I am you

When the flame of life grows cold
We chime the silent bell
And the unborn child is old
The seven gates of Hell

Going through the gates of Hell!

Oh, in Heavens Hell
So many died in vein
They never lived, their tales to tell
None shall find the keys
To set their spirits free
>From the seven gates of Hell
The seven gates
The seven gates
The seven gates...

The seven gates of Hell

I hear the creatures crawling
Oh let me out of here
Don't keep me locked away like this
ohh... nooo......

Evil_Cope
29th Nov 2001, 02:41 PM
well, as the saying goes, if you cant stand the heat; Go **** yourselves you mother****ing sons of bitches.


no offense or anything.

oh, and re:the church changing its scriptures/official line..
they recently-ish admitted that mary magdalena and the whore who begs forgiveness (er, sometime...) are not the same person, but that mary magdalena was actually nearer to a disciple.

lucifix
29th Nov 2001, 03:00 PM
according to the bible she was a disciple. and some biblical scholars believe her and jesus were getting it on........

Skorch
29th Nov 2001, 06:08 PM
No Frostblood, natural selection is real, evolution has never had any evidence to support it...the two are not the same....you cannot "breed" a cow from a paramecium.

and if the functioning of DNA were so simple, and could come easily out of chaos, then there would be spontanious creations of reproducing, happy little life forms coming out of amino acids all the time...yet even when we give them the best environments, we can't make it happen and have never seen it occur in nature or lab..

diddlysquat
29th Nov 2001, 09:25 PM
Sing me a song, you're a singer.
Do me all wrong, you're a bringer of evil
The devil is never a maker .
The less that you give, you're a taker.

So it's on and on and on, it's heaven and hell
Oh, well.

Lovers of life's not a sinner
The ending is just a beginner.
The close you get to the meaning
The sooner you know that You're dreaming.

So it's on and on and on,

Oh, it's on and on and on.

It goes on and on and on. Heaven and Hell

I can tell
Oh,
ooh,
Yeah,yeah
yeah

Well if it seems to be real, it's illusion.
For ev'ry moment of truth there's confusion in life.
Lover can be seen as the answer.
But nobody bleeds for the dancer.

And it's on and on and on, on and on and on and on and on and on

on and on and on and on and on and on.

say that life's a carrousel,
spinning fast you've got to ride it well.
The world is full of kings and queens
who blind your eyes then steal your dreams.
It's heaven and hell.

Oh well .
And they'll tell you that black is really white,
the moon is just the sun at night;
And when you walk in golden halls,
you get to keep the gold that falls.
It's heaven and hell.
No,no
Fool,fool

You got to bleed for the dancer.
Fool, Fool
Look for the answer.

Fool,fool,fool.

diddlysquat
29th Nov 2001, 09:29 PM
WITCHES GATHERED AT BLACK MASSES
BODIES BURNING IN RED ASHES
ON THE HILL,THE CHURCH OF RUINS
IS THE SCENE OF EVIL DOINS
IT'S THE PLACE FOR ALL BAD SINNERS
WATCH THEM EATING DEAD RAT DINNERS

I GUESS THAT IT'S THE SAME
WHEREVER YOU MAY GO
OH LORD YEA!

CARRY BANNERS WHICH DENOUNCE THE LORD
SEE ME ROCKING IN MY GRAVE
SEE THEM ANNOINTE MY HEAD
WITH DEAD RATS BLOOD
SEE THEM STICK AND STIFFLE ME

DON'T HOLD ME BACK
CAUSE I JUST GOTTA GO
THEY'VE GOT A HOLD OF MY SOUL NOW
LORDS GOT MY BRAIN IN SYNCH WITH BLOOD UNSEEN
LORDS GOT MY EYES UP THERE,I KNOW

YEAH!

ON THE SCENE A PRIEST APPEARS
SINNERS FALLING AT HIS KNEES
SATAN SENDS OUR FUNERAL PYRE
CASTS THE PRIEST INTO THE FIRE
IT'S THE PLACE FOR ALL BAD SINNERS
WATCHING THEM EAT DEAD RAT DINNERS

I GUESS THE SAME
WHERE EVER YOU MAY GO
OH LORD YEAH!!

diddlysquat
29th Nov 2001, 09:31 PM
He's walking like a small child
But watch his eyes burn you away
Black holes in his golden stare
God knows he wants to go home
Children of The Damned
(repeat another 3 times)

He's walking like a dead man
If he had lived he would crucified us all
Now he's standing on the last step
He thought oblivion well it beckons us all
Children of The Damned
(repeat 3 times)

Now it's burning his hands he's turning to laugh
Smiles as the flame sears the flesh
Melting his face screaming in pain
Peeling the skin from his eyes
Watch him die according to plan
He's dust on ground what did we learn

You're Children of The Damned
Your back's against the wall
You turn into the light
You're Children of The Damned
Like candles watch them burn
Burning in the light
You'll burn again tonight
You're Children of The Damned

diddlysquat
29th Nov 2001, 09:32 PM
"O God of Earth and Altar,
Bow down and hear our cry,
Our earthly rulers falter,
Our people drift and die,
The walls of gold entomb us,
The swords of scorn divide,
Take not thy thunder from us,
But take away our pride."
(G.K. Chesterton: English Hymnal)

Just a babe in the black abyss,
No reason for a place like this,
The walls are cold and souls cry out in pain,
An easy way for the blind to go,
A clever path for the fools who know
The secret of the Hanged Man - the smile of his lips.

The light of the Blind - you'll see,
The venom that tears my spine,
The Eyes of the Nile are opening - you'll see.

She came to me with a serpent's kiss,
As the Eye of the Sun rose on her lips,
Moonlight catches silver tears I cry,
So we lay in a black embrace,
And the Seed is sown in a holy place
And I watched, and I waited for the Dawn.

The light of the Blind - you'll see,
The venom that tears my spine,
The Eyes of the Nile are opening - you'll see.

Bind all of us together,
Ablaze with Hope and Free,
No storm or heavy weather
Will rock the boat you'll see.
The time has come to close your eyes
And still the wind and rain,
For the one who will be King
Is the Watcher in the Ring.
It is You.

diddlysquat
29th Nov 2001, 09:35 PM
Kill for gain or shoot to maim
But we don't need a reason
The Golden Goose is on the loose
And never out of season
Some blackened pride still burns inside
This shell of bloody treason
Here's my gun for a barrel of fun
For the love of living death

The killer's breed or the Demon's seed,
The glamour, the fortune, the pain,
Go to war again, blood is freedom's stain
But don't you pray for my soul anymore.

2 minutes to midnight,
The hands that threaten doom.
2 minutes to midnight,
To kill the unborn in the womb.

The blind men shout let the creatures out
We'll show the unbelievers,
The Napalm screams of human flames
Of a prime time Belsen Feast ... YEAH!
As the reasons for the carnage cut their meat
and lick the gravy
We oil the jaws of the war machine
and feed it with our babies.

The killer's breed or the Demon's seed,
The glamour, the fortune, the pain,
Go to war again, blood is freedom's stain
But don't you pray for my soul anymore.

2 minutes to midnight,
The hands that threaten doom.
2 minutes to midnight,
To kill the unborn in the womb.

The body bags and little rags of children
torn in two
And the jellied brains of those who remain
to put the finger right on you
As the Madmen play on words and make us all
dance to their song
To the tune of starving millions
to make better kind of gun.

The killer's breed or the Demon's seed,
The glamour, the fortune, the pain,
Go to war again, blood is freedom's stain
But don't you pray for my soul anymore.

2 minutes to midnight,
The hands that threaten doom.
2 minutes to midnight,
To kill the unborn in the womb.
Midnight ... all night (repeat)

diddlysquat
29th Nov 2001, 09:36 PM
They held their heads with laughs of pain
They learned from men who'd just refrain
From glancing at a mirror's face
Seven screaming diz-busters who lurked by a rose
Had iron for a bloodstream and ice behind their eyes

On each and all those holy nights
Where dusters dust becomes the sale and lucifer, the light

They're long so long this time of year
When stars be crossed by twirling fear
You don't suppose I'd prove surprised
Seven screaming diz-busters should go the route and die
Without the warmth they learn to crave
With hardened smiles and evil signs

On each and all those holy nights
Where dusters dust becomes the sale and lucifer, the light

Bury me near the secret cove so they'll not know the way
Bury me there, behind the rose so they'll not rile my grave
I'll not reveal whose name still loose (?)
Well their laugh of pain...And their harder smiles...
And their rigid arms...And their evil signs...
Longer days and the longer nights
And their longer, and longer still

On each and all those holy nights
Where dusters dust becomes the sale and lucifer, the light

diddlysquat
29th Nov 2001, 09:38 PM
Goering's on the phone to Freiburg
Say's Willie's done quite a job
Hitler's on the phone from Berlin
Say's I'm gonna make you a star

My Captain Von Ondine, here's your next patrol
A flight of English bombers across the canal
After twelve, they'll all be here
I think you know the job

They hung there dependant from the sky
Like some heavy metal fruit
These bombers, ripened, ready to tilt
Must these Englishmen live that I might die
Must they live that I might die

In a G-load disaster from the rate of climb
Sometimes I'd faint and be lost to our side
But there's no reward for failure, but death
So watch me in the mirrors, keep in the glidepath

Get me through these radars, no I cannot fail
Not when great silver slugs are eager to feed
I can't fail, no not now
When twenty five bombers wait ripe

They hung there dependant from the sky
Like some heavy metal fruit
These bombers, ripened, ready to tilt
Must these Englishmen live that I might die
Must they live that I might die

Me-262 prince of turbojet, Junker's jommo 004
Blasts from clustered R4M quartets in my snout
And see these English planes go burn
Now you be my witness how red were the skies
When the fortresses flow, for the very last time
It was dark over Westphalia, in april of T45

They hung there dependant from the sky
Like some heavy metal fruit
These bombers, ripened, ready to tilt
Must these Englishmen live that I might die
Must they live that I might die

Must these Englishmen live that I might die
Junker.s jommo 004 (repeat six times)
Bombers at 12 o'clock high

diddlysquat
29th Nov 2001, 09:39 PM
You see me now a veteran of a thousand psychic wars
I've been living on the edge so long, where the winds of limbo roar
And I'm young enough to look at, and far too old to see
All the scars are on the inside
I'm not sure that there's anything left of me

Don't let these shakes go on, it's time we had a break from it
It's time we had some leave
We've been living in the flames
We've been eating up our brains
Oh please, don't let these shakes go on.

You ask me why I'm weary, why I can't speak to you
You blame me for my silence, say it's time I changed and grew
But the war's still going on, dear, and there's nowhen that I know
And I can't stand forever
I can't say if we're ever gonna be free

Don't let these shakes go on, it's time we had a break from it
It's time we had some leave
We've been living in the flames
We've been eating up our brains
Oh please, don't let these shakes go on.

You see me now a veteran of a thousand psychic wars
My energy is spent at last, and my armor is destroyed
I have used up all my weapons, and I'm helpless and bereaved
Wounds are all I'm made of
Did I hear you say that this is victory?

Don't let these shakes go on, it's time we had a break from it
Send me to the rear
Where the tides of madness swell
And men sliding into hell
Oh please, don't let these shakes go on.

diddlysquat
29th Nov 2001, 09:39 PM
See them standing in the foothills waiting for the kill
On wings of fear the terror sweeps into the city peace(?)

To defend, this is the pact
But when life's scorned and damage done
To avenge, this is the pact

On wings of vengeance (turnibuns) and left for the aliens (??)

To defend, this is the pact
But when life's scorned and damage done
To avenge, this is the pact

Flying over the oasis she is captured and that boy fell down

Feeling (deee)
>From the (left)
Close my eyes
And I am them
I feel I'm falling down in a deep dark pit

Put him down, the soldiers said
I'll put an arrow in his head
But the bird flew off instead
To save his master on his back she fled

Her time has come

Riding the bird, high in the saddle
She gets a chance to fulfill the pact now
As the leader swoops from the clouds
She sticks him with the sword, then she throws him down

The enemy killed, the land died
The enemy killed, the land died

To defend, this is the pact
But when life's scorned and damage done
To avenge, this is the pact

diddlysquat
29th Nov 2001, 09:43 PM
There are those who think that life is nothing left to chance,
A host of holy horrors to direct our aimless dance.
A planet of playthings,
We dance on the strings
Of powers we cannot conceive.
"The stars aren't aligned
Or the gods are malign"-
Blame is better to give than receive.
You can choose a ready guide in some celestial voice.
If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice.
You can choose from phantom fears and kindness that can kill;
I will choose a path that's clear-
I will choose Free Will.
There are those who think that they were dealt a losing hand,
The cards were stacked against them- they weren't born in lotus-land.
All preordained-
A prisoner in chains-
A victim of venomous fate.
Kicked in the face,
You can't pray for a place
In heaven's unearthly estate.
Each of us-
A cell of awareness-
Imperfect and incomplete.
Genetic blends
With uncertain ends
On a fortune hunt that's far too fleet.

Vendetta
30th Nov 2001, 01:17 AM
what's with the 20 year old lyrics?

Frostblood
30th Nov 2001, 02:17 AM
No Frostblood, natural selection is real, evolution has never had any evidence to support it...the two are not the same....you cannot "breed" a cow from a paramecium.

and if the functioning of DNA were so simple, and could come easily out of chaos, then there would be spontanious creations of reproducing, happy little life forms coming out of amino acids all the time...yet even when we give them the best environments, we can't make it happen and have never seen it occur in nature or lab...

but evoloution is simply the logical progression of selection...it is natural selection over a long period. Also, while no living organisms have been spontaneously made, amino acids have been created from very simple chemicals in the lab using nothing more than electrical dischange ( e.g lightning ). But no-one has ever seen a meteor make the arizona crater and its accepted that it created it, you dont have to have direct evidence to deduce what happened.

Skorch
30th Nov 2001, 11:00 AM
Frostblood...we did not see the meteor that made that particular crater, but we have seen meteors make craters...if an alien spaceship crashed and made the crater we would still assume it was a meteor...and be totally wrong.

The problem with the fossil record is that it is part of the theory that alterations occur gradually over very long periods of time...but all we see are distinct, immediate changes...especially with our own lineage...the brains which are our only claim to fame "blossomed" in only three distinct time frame references...not gradual at all, but, it would seem, the increases in size always occurred in one generation...weird.

...It is also interesting to note that at one time there were only around 10,000 of us left in the entire world...we came close to being snuffed out...

I am not saying that the old records of our connections to God are completely correct...what I am saying is He does exist...He takes a hand, when he will, according to his desire...we could fight over different religeons all day long, but all of them are an attempt to get closer to the creator, and are therefore not in vain.

Frostblood
30th Nov 2001, 12:19 PM
I agree fully with you about God :tup:

Changes do appear to happen quickly, but if you think about it our progress has not been a change at all but an accumulation of knowlege : we are the same as we were in roman times, but our knowlege has increased progressivly over this time. And because the more we know, the more we can find out, our scientific developements are coming much faster now than before.

Claw
30th Nov 2001, 01:52 PM
Originally posted by Skorch
Frostblood...we did not see the meteor that made that particular crater, but we have seen meteors make craters...if an alien spaceship crashed and made the crater we would still assume it was a meteor...and be totally wrong.


Oh, well. And you say we don't see creatures evolve, is it that? But breeding is evolution. The combination of attributes is an important parts just like mutation. And mutants exist. Some are stored in bottles with alcohol or something.
Of course you can call all those just a failed attempt of God... uh, no, you can't. God doesn't fail or does he?
Another example may be the aurochs. That creature was [/B]extinct for about 300 years and has been re-breed from modern cows by mixing different uh, races? I think that is a significant evidence of the theory of evolution. According to the "spontanous" evolution idea there should be no connection between the Aurochs and modern cows, so the breeding of an Aurochs from the modern cow shouldn't be possible. Unless God just wanted to have a li'll fun and gradually changed the cow to the Aurochs as expected by the scientists. But then, with this argument on your side the whole discussion is futile and we're back at "I know what's right! - Noo, you're wrong, I am right!"




[B]The problem with the fossil record is that it is part of the theory that alterations occur gradually over very long periods of time...but all we see are distinct, immediate changes...especially with our own lineage...the brains which are our only claim to fame "blossomed" in only three distinct time frame references...not gradual at all, but, it would seem, the increases in size always occurred in one generation...weird.


Amusingly enough, you see things I don't. Or maybe the other way 'round rather. That is because I do see significant similarities between different creatures. Just take humans and apes, with the famous 99% DNA correspondence. But maybe God really just ran out of ideas, huh?
And what about animal families? What, did God create them as collector's items?
Yasee, I can indeed explain the leaps you noticed. It's actually so simple I cannot understand how someone can learn to read and write but fail to see it.
How many creatures live on earth? Many, many, many, many, many, ... , many, many. How many lived a year ago? Many, ...
And now think back all those billions of years to the beginning of life. How many creatures lived on Earth ever? And how come that when I walk around in a park I do not hear the crunshing of ancient bones under my heels? Right. Corpses rot. Almost no evidence of the uncountable number of living creatures remains. What we do find are but small glimpses of evolution. Creatures where conserved under special circumstances present at a certain place and/or time. Think of watching a movie with all pictures (you know - moving pictures :rolleyes: ) but 5 every 5 seconds blackened out. Propably more. That is how we perceive evolution.




...It is also interesting to note that at one time there were only around 10,000 of us left in the entire world...we came close to being snuffed out...


Close, yes. Many other human-like creatures were indeed "snuffed out"
But we survived. 'tis just what happn'd. Many species die, but many also live. We are among the living, for whatever reasons.




I am not saying that the old records of our connections to God are completely correct...what I am saying is He does exist...He takes a hand, when he will, according to his desire...we could fight over different religeons all day long, but all of them are an attempt to get closer to the creator, and are therefore not in vain.

And I am not saying that just because I believe in science, all that happened was pure chance. Maybe it were aliens after all. Which leaves the question where the aliens came from... :rolleyes:
I just don't pretend I know when I don't. Science is an attempt to describe and understand what is.