Map Flow (repost from general discussion)

Okay, disclaimer: this in no way reflects a higher opinion of Counter-Strike nor its affiliated parties/imitations. I have nothing against Day of Defeat, only fantasize of a collaboration with Team INF.

That said

I do have to acknowledge that CS and DoD really have some admirable qualities in map-design that IMO need to be addressed in Infiltration.

INF's maps tend to be beautiful, large and wide open, good recreations of believable locations. The problem with this is that in TDM, with our limited communications and (although this is improving) little incentive to stay together in groups, players tend to disperse immediately between the many different paths (read Sicily/Kosovo for instance). This can often result in incoherent mayhem full of accidental TKs and basically free-for-all action... good group firefights are often by accident or flukes resulting from team players.

Maps also tend to be circular in design, which at the end of the round often results in people running in circles looking for each other.

If you look at many maps, there are usually 2-4 routes to the enemy base, which are basically isolated from one anothe en-route. So if you go down one and your enemy chooses another, you can run circles around each other until accidentlaly running into each other, often in an anti-climactic twitch fight.

CS and DoD maps can also be large and have many different routes, but the main difference seems to be that the map is inherently linear. Obviously there are exceptions, but overall there tends to be main vessel that has many different paths within it, but these are frequently exposed to each other. Any tangent routes tie back in to the main route before reaching the enemy starting location.

Look at DoD's Cean. It is basically one wide path between the two bases, with lots of cover, buildings to enter, and back alleys that are all part of a single route. While linear map design can have the effect of the same repetitive encouncters, Caen allows a wide variety of encounters in the terrain that stays interesting, while still keeping a focused flow... no matter where you go you are bound to run into each other.

Granted the gameplay in DoD is very different and hard to compare... but I hope you get my thoughts.

Maybe improvement will come with the new gametypes, CTF/Assault style games by virtue will have more focus... but I still think this is important to keep in mind.

-Spunky

hmmm

My apologies, I seem to have given the wrong impression. And in retrospect I thought and spoke way too generally. I really like most of the maps in INF, and when people play as I think both the INF and map designers had in mind they rock. But whether we like it or not, most of the time when you put a bunch of strangers in a game together, they are going to kinda do their own thing, mostly because our communication is so limited. If you even suspect that enemies are nearby, its suicidal to get into text chat mode or start navigating the voice menus, and setting hotkeys for everything important just isn't terribly practical.

Some map tricks can be (and are) employed to make players support each other almost by default. ExtremePrejudice was always one of my favorite maps, except when it came down to a couple small groups or single players who would run circles looking for each other until the time runs out (mostly because if one of them stopped to wait god gorbid they would be called a "camper"

Sicily, is a lot of fun, but the three main streets are covered/isolated from each other, so the often scattered pockets of players cannot get a chance to spot each other until the ends of the streets, and then only by chance. The effect gets worse the fewer players are present. Even if the players are trying to help their mates by flanking, they must do it blindly. If there were more visibility the players would be able to move in tune to the rest of the team without a word. Even if they aren't trying to be a teamplayer, just shooting every enemy they see, they would still be potentially helping their teamates because they cannot be that isolated. This would also offer more incentive for people to use hide behind cover and move more cautiously... most people seem to have little reason not to go barreling down the bare streets on some maps.

Anyway, I was just repeating some thoughts I've had late nights on INF servers. It isn't a problem on many maps, and its hard to make maps replayable since they are inherently static. I also don't mean to start any arguements about forcing styles of play... I don't know, I maybe shouldn't have said anything, sorry.

I totally agree about time limits, is it too dramatic to call them the bane of all that is good and proper?

Hell I'm not even sure what I'm debating anymore. I personally do prefer large open map designs with no limits, slow intense gameplay... this is what Infiltration is to me. I think that some of the maps we have now that are the 'large open' maps are actually some of the more limiting ones.

Sicily, nothing against this map its great and is a blast, but after playing on it for a while it really doesn't feel that realistic to me. I think there are three main routes across the map, and not enough cross-streets. If you spot an enemy a street down you have to run practically to another extreme of the map to get to that street, and by that time you have no idea where your enemy is. Granted in real life you would be able to peek over walls and climb fences... I'd love to see that climb function integrated with Inf

I don't know what I'm talking about anymore, it was an incomplete thought Maybe all these issues I'm thinking about will go away with the new gametypes.

For TDM, does it come down to Realistic open maps with rampant FFA rambo/quake gamers vs. limited maps designed to shape gameplay that still 'feel' open? The former leave so many options open for the right people, and especially if there were SOME purpose AT ALL for the scenerio.

Eck, anyway I just got home, its 4:00 AM and I can barely type so, goodnight.