View Full Version : -- Why buy Unreal 2 when.... ---

15th Oct 2001, 04:57 PM
Ok well maybe. :/

I myself am in the thinking process of designing a new game using C++ and such. I know all the HTML there is, and I have a bit of money to put fourth.

I haven't written any code yet, it's just the thinking process(You know how games take months to years to make).

But heres what it basically is:

A platform for mods.


Unlimited capibility.

Unlimited graphic copassity(that means in 20 years this games graphics could still be unbealivible)

Im sure you can see there isn't much there.... Thats because I'm still wokring on how hitboxes would be, if they would vary, and all kinds of other options.

What it'll be like:

Wheny ou get it you'll just be at a screen like unreal tournament is, but you won't be able to play games.
How you would play is by downloading mods that were made from _____Script (like unrealscript and it's mods;you getting it yet?). If you were going start a game vs bots or host your own online game you would selec your map, then you would selec your game type, then add a mod that would be the base of the game your about to play. After that you can add additional mods as long as they aren't going to grab for the same resuources as the base one.

Hopefully Ill get 0fus to make a Strangelove mod for it(eveyrone loves it don't they?) when it is first released(aiming for a price of nothing to $5... But theres the thing that comes up - "Who buys $5 games?"). I'll try to release it a little latter than its done but release it to mod designers so i cna get alot releaed with the game.

Why this will own arse:

You won't have to worry about the filesizes like ou would with game mods for UT because they will (hopefully) be cofiguratble, like say you could have an endless amout of polymorphs for a characters mesh, well maybe thats an exagration know, but after a few years we'll have computers so stable with so much memory that we could(so graphics, AI(or AIC:Artificial Intellegence Conchues[I can't spell to well, english language is weird.. but what i eman is thast little guy that sits on your shoulder and tells you what to do lol]);were bots react more like humans and are able to see how peoples playing styles are and react to them))
This game platform will be so capitable, and hopefully we will make the scripting for 'mods' so easy that you pay a little and get every sequal that is here now and will come for Quake, Unreal, Tribes, C&C, Diablo, Warcraft, and original game mods like StrangeLove, FEBA, Weaposn Foutress.
Once a what we will call 'base mod' is set up, people would be able to selec other mods.
Heres an example:
Say your playing Quake as your base mod, but you want to add some new weapons and even put a strangelove as the best weapon(in 'shoot 'em up' games the best weapon will have it's own classification in the scripting so you could have Strangelove working on Tribes, Quake, Unreal, and maybe even games like Diablo. Al you'd have to do is selec Quake as the base mod and then add strangelove in the additional ones.
Now, more stuff that will make this game own arse. We're going to try to work on a much different kind of shadowing so were polygons meet in maps(I'm not a mapper I don't know what to call those joints) the shadow would blind across the curve instead of going from light to dark if the 'joint' doesn't bend to much, making the graphics look alot better without sacrificing to add more 'joints' which creats painstaking time and bigger map size.
Ahh, now to the new script which will be designed to make the 'mods'... Well I'm not near sure how we're going to do this, but were going to make a script like unreal script, but make it much much easier to program(posibly make a copiler with options were you can build a mod just by selecting a few things and inputting models) And if saved in a /system folder as a like a .cm file extention(or what every we'll make it be in the finished porduct) and then add an .ini file and .txt file for help with use and details in the /help folder.

I can make amazing graphical eye candy for website(www.____.info or .com) and the 'buttons' and backround for the main screen, I will be leading the project as what will be done, as well as doing alot of the C++ programming and the web site layout design and content. I am fully able to do 80% of this program, but theres my limited spare time of about 5-7 hours a day which i can't devote fully to this project.

Now. Lets talk about design crew and who were looking for:
C++ programmers
People highly knowledgable about creating new scripts.
Graphical artists.
Creative thinkers.
Beta testers(will be a long while untill we'll be doing beta testing)
about 200people to argue about a name untill we find one!(more if i can get more =P)
People to spread the word and tell everyone how great this is going to be. =o
Anyone who thinks they can contribute.

E-mail pfft_i_dont_know@yahoo.com (will become Admin@____.info/.com within a few weeks so e-mail me fast) IF your interested at all send me an e-mail with any background experence and what you can do. If you will be doing anything related to scripting include your adress because if this game gets off the ground(it could become huge if i could get advertised right) you will receive some money. :P

Also, if you want to contribute to getting this game made just send me an e-mail if you want to send maybe just $1(if everyone sent a dollar ya know we could get some more incouragement to our other designers and such) or what ever you can spare(Maybe your a millionair or bill gates is reading this? =o)


15th Oct 2001, 05:02 PM
Corona-Device, please stop spamming the forums.

Tetris L
15th Oct 2001, 05:34 PM
why is Corona-Device's post spam? I see nothing wrong with his post. It's not directly U2 related and it's a bit ;) unrealistic, but it's not spam in my book.

a game like U2 is created by a team of about 10-20 experienced professional full-time experts, working on it for more than 2 years. And you think you can create a game better than that with a team of part time volunteer amateurs? Don't mean to disapoint you, but don't you think that's a bit unrealistic? Come down to earth, please. Start small. Create a little mod for a game like Unreal or Quake to gain some experience. Once you've managed to do that you can start making the big plans.

15th Oct 2001, 05:36 PM
It's spam because he posted the exact same thing in the OT, UT (twice), U2, and Editing forums. That, IMO, is spam.

Tetris L
15th Oct 2001, 05:37 PM
I see what you mean now, SamuraiSludge:


He'll probably never come back anyway, but in case he does: :mad:

15th Oct 2001, 09:11 PM
I myself am not an amutuer, and I know what you mean, this will take forever but I do need some people. I'll put some money downt he toilet..

15th Oct 2001, 09:12 PM
HTML? You think knowing HTML makes you a programmer?:D :D :D
me laughs.

16th Oct 2001, 12:07 PM
Lol. I know Java, C++, and learning C# aswell, you need to learn more thouroly. :)

16th Oct 2001, 12:20 PM
Oh and yes I plan to stay in this forum to help people with tech-related questions. Yeah I expect to be able to do this with some volenters, If not I'll spend 3-5 years doing it myself... Anyways I got lots of e-mails and I'm just looking for some people that think logically to help me trouble shot, debug, and work on i-face.

Tetris L
16th Oct 2001, 01:09 PM
Again ... if you wanna go into the gaming business, start small. Learn one of the many things that it requires to make game content: Coding, mapping, modelling, skinning, texturing, concept art, ... anything ... and become good at it. Then join a team for a game mod or a total conversion and learn how such a team works. Once you've done at least one project as a normal team member you can then start your own project as a team leader.

Maybe read what the master CliffyB himself recommends: "How to get a job in the gaming biz" (http://www.cliffyb.com/how-to-get-hired.htm)

16th Oct 2001, 03:32 PM
Making a new engine is stupid, just modify a existing one!

Throw money down the toilet by buying a unreal engine license, make that money grow by putting every mod you can on cd and selling it, helping them and you, helping you by giving you money and hell of experinced unreal engine workers!

Then modify the engine and make a game! That simple yes?

16th Oct 2001, 03:33 PM
Ohh yeah and as far as i can tell if you get a unrela engine license they send you all the newest unrela technologies, so as they make there engine own, you get it! FIRST!

16th Oct 2001, 05:02 PM
well good luck if ya do star workin on your game...
till then, welcome :)

17th Oct 2001, 05:34 AM
I can't see a good game coming out of this but it's always worth a try. Good luck if you do make it.

18th Oct 2001, 12:20 PM
That sounds like one helluva game! The concept is interesting but the engine would have to be... well, it might be easier to build a time machine-go into the future-grab some ideas(and some programmers)-come back and take care of business...

UnrealisticTournament? You make it, I'll buy it!

20th Oct 2001, 05:27 PM
What you're saying here is simply impossible. You simply can't make an engine that'll last 20 years. There's several reasons:

1. There's always new hardware. You'd have to optimize the engine from time to time to keep it up to date.

2. It'll take more than 20 years to actually have an engine that has a fully optimized code. Just look at the unreal engine, they discover tiny things everytime which allow them to render faster or render more polygons at the same time. And if it was possible, it would've been done already. Programming a real fast engine is more than C/C++ only. If you want to get the max out of it, you need to learn assembly, which can be truly painfull for programming a 3D engine. It'll take years to get out all the tiny details out of it which slow down the engine.

3. It's simply impossible to have unlimited capability. What if they discover some new and absolutly 1337 special effect which your engine doesn't support? What if they discover a whole different and faster way of rendering a 3D world, which may not even depend on polygons or sumthin'? In the second case you'd even have to start all over again, maps, skins, etc will be lost and you've got nothing left. The first example would take less work ofcourse, but that'll probably unveil even more tiny details which might speed up the engine.

4. The scripting language, it's actually just the same as the rest. When they discover new things, new ways to calculate stuff, new ways to render effects or animate objects, you'd need to update the script language it uses too. Ofcourse you can have the engine use dll's (windows), .so/.a's (linux) or any other form of library written in any language, but not every mod programmer wants to learn C/C++, and it may reduce speed... again.

But there's more. First of all, you yourself know only HTML. believe me, I'm trying to learn C myself. C's about 100 times as hard as HTML, if it ain't even more. You're also thinking way to easy, it's not all about programming, you also need people who could make you the textures, the animations, modellers, and someone with a little 3D engine coding experience would be real good.

Conclusion: What you're trying to say here is simply impossible. You can however make it the beginning of a good open-source engine. If you're planning on making an open-source engine, you won't have to worry about graphics, maps and stuff directly, it's more like gathering a bunch of coders first, believe me, alot of people will be sending in bug reports and stuff and will help you along. (just look at the frequency they update the linux kernel. If you manage to get your project that popular, you'll surely get enough support and artists, mappers, etc will eventually, when the engine is in a somewhat working state, show up too)

So here's a few tips assuming the engine will be open-source:
- GPL would be the best license for the engine, it'll allow people to freely modify the code and redistribute it as long as it's got the same license and the authors name and copyright notes are added. It'll allow alot of coders to actually help you out, and if you get the project real popular, it'll surely get the attention it needs.
- SourceForge (http://sourceforge.net/) seems an excellent place for the homepage of the project. Somebody may eventually even set up a CVS (http://www.cvshome.com) server for you.
- Get it running on multiple platforms, there's lots of porters on the internet. Again, if they know the project, they're bound to come.

I'll try come up with some more. It's up to you to get this running. Maybe I'll help ya out sometime, but believe me, as you're stating it right there, it's simply impossible. Keeping good track of the project would eventually be the best thing to do and maybe even get your project worldfamous. Though that's a long way from where you are now...

21st Oct 2001, 10:41 PM
Have you made anything that we could see? I would like to see some of you work.

22nd Oct 2001, 01:54 AM

22nd Oct 2001, 03:49 PM
Believe me, engine programming is HARD work. I've been at it for about 2 years now with a little group. Sure, we've got some purdy colours, but a one-man project is kinda unrealistic. C/C++ is also an unrealistic codebase for an engine that will have "fully optimized code." We are programming the core components in Assembly(the very core components, or the really slow ones), because its much faster, but if we overuse it we're going to get stability issues(hey, its ASSEMBLY!).

I'd recommend you start like me, mods or something. If you did, then I'm glad to hear about this, but don't say it'll "last 20 years."

By the way, I could post screenshots of what we've done so far...

9th Nov 2001, 08:21 PM
Hey man i didnt know that.. u gave me sumthing to think about thanks MAN!

10th Nov 2001, 03:52 AM
Hey, I didn't mean to discourage you. If you can program, you can do it. I wrote a real-time 3-D engine once ages ago, it was fun. Ignore people who say, "Why do it yourself when someone else is already doing it?". The act of doing it is valuable in and of itself.

But I would recommend you start small. Decide what's most important and develop that first. This is 'bottom up' programming, which is the opposite of how large teams (should) do it.

If you are going to allow limitless forward compatibility, you need to develop outside of a hardware context. To achieve that you should ise a language like java that provides abstractions of hardware and OS features. Don't worry about speed. You can optimize with C or assembly later, first make something you can work with anywhere.

11th Nov 2001, 10:49 PM
what is really pissin me off is learning this damn HTML.. now they have DHTML.. ackk give me a break man.. ---Insert memory card here >...

Chris Hargrove
12th Nov 2001, 04:06 AM
I'm not going to get heavily into this discussion since it's basically a dead-end (people are going to do what they want regardless of what anyone else thinks). That said, I will throw in my $0.02 on a couple issues. Note that I'm not talking to the original poster specifically, but rather anyone interested in this subject.

1) Assembly.

Don't use it unless it's absolutely required. You should only even consider using assembly in small speed-critical inner loops (verified by a profiler; do not make guesses about this), where you're absolutely certain that no algorithmic optimizations can be performed instead, and where you're absolutely certain that you can beat the compiler-generated code (verified once again by profiling).

In an entire game this might amount to only a small handful of functions, nothing more, and they're only turned into assembly at the very end of a project when there are no alternatives. 99.9% of the time assembly is not your best option, because the development and maintenance time/cost of assembly code is much higher than that of C/C++ code, and at some point you hit the area of diminishing returns. The vast majority of the time you're better off finding ways to do algorithmic optimizations (the best code is the code that isn't executed) rather than jump into nuts & bolts prematurely.

Do not think of these opinions as coming from someone who doesn't know anything about assembly; I used to do demo coding back in the 386/486 days and I loved assembly back then, but things aren't the same anymore. Compilers are much better, and hand optimization is much harder with modern P3/P4 systems which have complex branch prediction rules and instruction prefetch queues large enough to make cycle counting a nightmare (not to mention that it's difficult to count cycles accurately in multithreaded OS environments anyway).

In short, don't touch assembly unless it's late in the project, it's the the only option, and you're absolutely certain that you know what you're doing.

2) Engines.

You cannot make an engine that'll last forever. What you can do is design your engine within a solid infrastructure that allows easy additions and upgrades (like replacing a renderer, or a scripting language) over the engine's lifetime. This will not keep the engine alive forever, but it should at least increase its lifespan.

Of course, a large factor in knowing how to write an engine like this is experience, so if this is your first major engine project (and by "major" I mean absolutely no less than 50,000 lines of C/C++ code at a bare minimum), then don't expect things to go smoothly. Even experienced engine developers take a nontrivial amount of time in design upfront usually, and if you're new to this you'll probably want to take even more.

BTW, I highly recommend building your infrastructure in a bottom-up component-oriented fashion, favoring composition more than inheritence (i.e. black-box reuse). With as diverse a problem domain as a 3D game, it tends to work out much better in the end. Feel free to white-box individual subsystems in the engine, that's fine, but treat the overall architecture as a layered set of components.

3) New developers, new projects.

"Never be afraid to share your dreams with the world, because there's nothing the world loves more than the taste of really sweet dreams." - despair.com's poster for Bitterness

Game development is rougher than most aspiring developers think, and they often don't realize how rough it is until it's too late. Start small and gain experience. Experience and time are your most valued assets, so take advantage of them or they'll take advantage of you.

Chris Hargrove
Senior Programmer, Legend Entertainment

12th Nov 2001, 05:59 AM

Tetris L
12th Nov 2001, 06:21 AM
You say it, brother.

26th Nov 2001, 04:41 PM
i am just wondering that i will be dead alot more with u2, haha i would be surprised if i live long in the game.

27th Nov 2001, 12:31 PM
Why do you say that?