Alternate skin settings for 286

Thank you.

Ok, two points here:

#1 - STOP IT. We can debate camos until we're blue in the face, but you know what? Make 'em too close together, and people bitch. Make 'em too distinct, and people bitch! It's a no win situation, not even worth bringing up.

#2 - Do I even need to mention that all the armies of the world have a ton of camos for every situation? And if you think someone is going to build several hundred camo skins for INF, you're crazy. Not to mention I don't WANT that friggin' number of choices! Then people would bitch even more about what they want.

#3 - The MAPPERS choose the skins. Seems only right, don't it? If you disagree with their choices, well, that's your right.

#4 - Just because INF comes out with certain Map/Skin combos doesn't mean they have to stay that way! Convince an admin to run other skins if you want - or run your own server. I'll tell you what, tho- if 2 people come to me and complain about little things, I'll ignore them. If they want to spend their own time and energy coming up with a solution and then they get 20-30 other people to ALL AGREE on it, I'll implement it ASAP.

#5 - For god's sake... remember when INF had two skins server admins could choose for all maps? Things are progressing quite nicely, I believe.

You seem to be exaggerating this, as this really isn't "2 people come to me and complain about little things", as the forums are more of an indirect medium. I understand the frustration, but I don't think it is fair that you are insulting two people merely posting an observation.

Er, I wasn't referring to the 'two people' in here! I was referring to a small number of people. Lets put it this way, a small group of people bitch, the majority remain silent. As a server admin, I go with the majority. As soon as I go with what the small number of people say, the majority start bitching about what THEY want, usually in small groups themselves. So, like I said, if a SIGNIFICANT number of people come forward, then I act. Otherwise its just rocking the boat.

It is a choice, like I did say! It's just that I'm coming from the server admin point of view, where it is NOT _MY_ choice.

Sorry guys, but you try and run multiple public servers and THEN come to me with all your ideas, once you have an idea of what I'm talking about. It's NOT a simple thing to do, modifying public servers, unless you want to be an ******* admin who just does things they way he and his friends want.

Dockside was my monstrocity, so let me explain the skin situation.

Realism, gameplay. Realism, gameplay. What to do, to do? See, I had to pick skins that were applicable to the environment, and that were as different to the other as possible. Urban is a given...it's an urban environment. Black is the total the opposite of urban, and it's the most applicable in that environment.

Dockside is pretty well lit, so the only place that the black skin's gonna help is in the shadows. However, the urban skin is pretty good there as well. Not AS good, but good none the less.

I'll tell you what. You pick a better combination based off of the above requirements, and I'll see if I can add it next time. Theres no rigidity in this kitchen.

BTW - DB's facts are on the money...respect his dang authoritah!!!

I'll sign my name to The_Fur's petition

just an info:

I really like the discussions and everything that is talked about here on the forums that normally help to improve INF a lot. Its the community that sometimes gives us hints etc to improve the whole thing.

So I really like the way ... even when some guys stick too thick to their opinions sometimes. The_Fur, I really like your point of view and that you try to get some feedback about it from the community. BUT:

The_Fur is one of our beta testers and actually these issues (map-camo-setups, accuracy, scopes etc etc... in fact all the issues from his latest posts) were brought up by him about ! 1 ! hour before we wanted to release.
A "hot" debate started from that and I do apologize here to The_Fur that some sentences were a bit rude or misplaced. But I (and others) were simply not in the mood to hold back the release any longer. The whole problem was The-Fur s timing... to give us such a big list of things he don't like so close before we wanted to release was ... well... not pretty good actually.

We were working for days on getting this thing out and almost all guys involved were stressed way too much... so we had nothing better to do as to discuss these issues very fast and sometimes a bit unprofessional. We should have said simply to discuss this later on ... after 2.86 was released.

So... The_Fur now started all these posts... and it really made me angry cause we started to discuss such things IN the team and tester crew and to post stuff here looked (well for me personally) like The_Fur wanted to give us a little "side-kick" or something.
I hope its just my wrong impression here so...

Ok, The_Fur posted good things and the discussions about these issues are most welcome. But do not name these issues BUGS cause they are no bugs at all... well maybe name them "missing" features or stuff that should be added later on to aid the overall gameplay etc. But do not name them bugs... that's simply wrong and unfair... and in addition will be understood as "real bugs" from newbies or people that have not played the new version yet...

so I hope The_Fur is still with us and I hope that things said haven't been too hard at all...

plz discuss these issues further... like said... its most welcome... but do it in a "nice" and moderate way... and don't do it the hard way.

thx for your time,

Beppo

1. Who was even debating camos? The_Fur came up with something on his own and Apocal thanked him for his effort. Then you came along and flapped your gums about nothing in particular.

2. Who brought up the idea of making additional camos? The only even in contention in this thread was the fairness of some of the camos on some map.

3. You're right, we can disagree. And mappers can make mistakes.

4. Yeah, The_Fur disagreed and did something about it. This is the basis of the majority of INF mutators. And I don't believe telling him to, "STOP IT", is appropiate.

5. Yes.

Inshort:

YOU STFU

ehhh I guess this was no direct reply to my post actually.. just wanted to get this clear

Thanks again.

Okay I think in the area of camo I believe realism has to take a backseet to balance. Skins cannot look too much alike. This is very bad for gameplay. One skin cannot have a significant advantage over another. I say that they should just use blue and reddish skins on maps with camo problems because they are so easy to tell apart and don't give one team an advantage over another.

Thanks, poaw. Not knowing ANYTHING of the background, you came up with remarkable insight. As for EVERYTHING I said, it is true in its entirety. Do you run servers? Do you do ANYTHING that would give you the insight into this problem except not liking some of the skin pairs? Tell ya what, you run servers, you deal with public opinion on skins since the dawn of INF, and then I'll listen to you.

As Funk did, let me also defend my own camo choices on Atoll. Firstly I wanted two skins that were easy to tell apart. Atoll isn't as brightly-lit as some other maps, and camo choices that may seem reasonable to discern on those aren't such on Atoll. Thus Fur's choices of German Fleckturn (sp?) & Russian Tan are in my opinion much too close, and create major problems w/ game play (which I experienced during beta tests where these camos were actually used, having a terrible time telling the teams apart).

Secondly I wanted skins that matched the environment depicted in the map. Contrary to what Fur says, the map is NOT "almost entirely green and brown". What about all the sand on the beaches surrounding the entire island? I would submit to you a desert-camo'd player lying prone on one of the interior shores (which snipers like to do from what I've see in public games so far) is at least as well hidden as a Russian Tan camo laying in a grassy section. Your argument just doesn't wash, Fur. Trust me, any server that runs your camo choices will become TK City...

On a more general note, I totally sympathize with what Beppo is saying. Fur is a great beta tester, but he's just one of a number of them that make up the beta testing team. What is "realistic" in a game isn't something that everyone agrees on. And to say something in the game is a "bug" because it doesn't comply to a specific view of "realism" is totally unproductive.

Unless you have actual experience as a trained soldier, how can you be so sure of what is "realistic"? I know, for example, that actual trained soldiers have said they can aim with some degree of accuracy (albeit reduced) while running. And this is pretty much how it's modelled currently. Beppo and the team simply wasn't going to change it to fit the idea of one individual beta tester. And that's just the way it is.

Paow,
I thought Daddybone's reaction was over the top. But with Beppo's explanation it makes sense now. I didn't know Fur was a beta tester.

Fur, I can understand why your statements would be offensive to some of the other guys that worked hard to get 2.86 out. When I released my bot tweaker, I instantly had JaFO posting everything he thought was a "bug". Did it have bugs? Sure. But is sucks when you work hard on something and just want ppl to enjoy it, and all they can talk about is the bad parts (or parts they didn't like as a personal opinion).