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Derek
4th Feb 2000, 09:44 PM
Ok, right now I am in Lima, Peru, so I really wouldn't know, but what exactly are the gun laws in the U.S.?

I mean, can a regular joe just go out and buy an M-16 or MP5?

Class III license? How do you go out and get one?

What is all this gun fair business in which teenagers can buy full-auto weaponry?

If I have a gun of my own, is it legal to shoot it in my house? (as in: a basement shooting range)

Whats the deal on carrying concealed weapons.

What are the procedures, andnecessary ages for a gun license?

what are the types of gun licenses?

Are those dinky .22 rifles considered firearms? How come some kids have them like they were bb guns?

Lots of questions, but I would really like to know, because right now I am completely in the dark.

Catalyst
5th Feb 2000, 12:10 AM
OK, let me try to answer these to the best of my knowledge:

>> I mean, can a regular joe just go out and buy an M-16 or MP5?

No. Fully automatic weapons are illegal to purchase or possess in the U.S. However, you can own an AR-15, which is a semi-automatic version of the M-16.

>> Class III license? How do you go out and get one?

It's the license to deal in fully automatic weapons. Only for law-enforcement and military personnel. You can register to get one of these as a dealer (I think Repairman_Jack has one /infopop/emoticons\icon_wink.gif )

>> What is all this gun fair business in which teenagers can buy full-auto weaponry?

They can't. If they have it, it was illegally obtained.

>> If I have a gun of my own, is it legal to shoot it in my house? (as in: a basement shooting range)

Possibly. It might break some kind of housing code, but if you had good sound-proofing and it didn't piss off your neighbors you could probably get away with it.

>>Whats the deal on carrying concealed weapons.

It varies state-to-state. Some states it's altogether illegal, others you must file a permit with the city to carry a concealed weapon.

>> What are the procedures, andnecessary ages for a gun license?

Again, it varies state to state. Some states only require you to be like 16, but for most you must be 18 years old. Some states require a gun license. Most do not.

>> what are the types of gun licenses?

Not sure on this one. I just thought there was one.

>> Are those dinky .22 rifles considered firearms? How come some kids have them like they were bb guns?

.22 weapons are considered firearms. A lot of kids have them for hunting and are given to them by their dad or something. I don't think there are any less restrictions on .22 weapons as any other non-automatic weapon. Maybe someone can correct me on this.

Derek
5th Feb 2000, 12:31 AM
Thanks, I actually have some idea on the whole U.S. gun thing now.

I saw a documentary on 20/20 or some show like that where they got some teens to go to a Las Vegas gun fair with some cash, they came out with some type of M-16 and some handguns.

Are those kits that allow you take take a semi and make it full auto legal?

What's the deal with militias?

Here (Peru), I can get my hands on a Berreta 92F for about 500 dollars, and a glock (not sure of the model, but its one of the smaller ones) for $425. Prices the same over there?

Evil_Joe
5th Feb 2000, 12:32 AM
You have to be 21 to own a pistol and they do a background check. In fact in pennsylvania I'm pretty sure you have to be 21 to purchase or own any firearm... but I definately know you must be 21 to purchase a pistol. Military personal really don't get any special benefits. If in wartime you kill someone with a weapon you baught its considered murder... even if they are the enemy... when snipers join and they have a rifle of their own the US military buys it off of them and then issues it to them. To hunt in Pennsylvania you must be at least 16 and go through a safety course which is usually a weekend long ordeal.

As far as I know nobody under 21 can get a carry and conceal license any ways I strongly doubt they would have adequate use to carry and conceal a firearm of any sort.

Repairman_Jack
5th Feb 2000, 02:09 AM
Yes, I have a Class III (and a CCW)...but, in most states you don't need one--- http://www.funsupply.com/firearms/fullauto.html

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SEZ
Jon
--Infiltration-More challenging than changing the recoil spring in a M60--

Catalyst
5th Feb 2000, 03:15 AM
With all the gun crackdowns in the U.S. as of late, I'm surprised you can still get away with some of this stuff.

I guess the age varies state to state too...I'm pretty sure it's 18 in California.
http://cnn.com/SPECIALS/1998/guns/

[This message has been edited by Catalyst (edited 02-05-2000).]

5th Feb 2000, 09:03 AM
I can't believe the amount of misinformation presented here on this issue. I'm Canadian and I know more about US gun laws than the average American gun owner. Corrections:

> No. Fully automatic weapons are illegal to purchase or possess in the U.S.

Absolutely 100% DEAD WRONG. Full automatics, sawed off shotguns, suppressors, mustard gas grenades, and 105mm howitzers are ALL legally obtainable, depending on whether or not the particular state allows the ownership of NFA (National Firearms Act of 1934) weaponry.

Each NFA weapon requires a transfer tax to be paid on it when transferred. Machine guns, suppressors, destructive devices (DD), short-barrelled shotguns (SBS), and short-barrelled rifles (SBR), all require a $200 transfer tax. Any other weapons (AOW) like smoothbore pistols and pen guns are a $5 tax. Manufacturing tax is $200. To purchase, you need to submit a form 3/4 to the ATF with fingerprint card, passport photos, CLEO signoff, and cheque for the transfer tax. Typical turnaround is 3 to 6 months, sometimes shorter, often a LOT longer.

Machine guns can no longer be manufactured for civilian purchase. All machine guns in private hands had to have been registered before May of 1986 and are considered "transferable". Pre-May dealer samples are transferable only to class 02 FFL/class 07 SOT holders, but the holder can retain the firearm after they relinquish their permits. Post-May dealer samples are transferable as above but must be transfered to another dealer if the current holder gives up their licenses. Post-May samples also require the transferee to have a PD demo request letter on official department letterhead.

Suppressors, SBR's and SBS's can be manufactured by ANYONE so long as they submit a Form 1 with transfer tax and relevant info. Destructive devices can only be manufactured by Type 10 (?) FFL's, which is Manufacturer of Destructive Devices. DD's cover explosive ordnance, poison gas explosives, and large-bore firearms (any firearm over .50 cal).

And to prove this isn't all BS culled from my imagination, visit Tom Bowers' Politically Incorrect Machine Gun Pages (http://www.subguns.com) and click on the NFA Ad Board. M-11/9's, M-16's, MP-5's, 1919A4's, all manner of machine guns and nasty toys to be had. Pay special attention to the prices however.

> Possibly. It might break some kind of housing code, but if you had good sound-proofing and it didn't piss off your neighbors you could probably get away with it.

Usually it depends on the local ordinances, although from what I understand in most areas you can fire your gun anywhere you want so long as you're not endangering anyone or causing a disturbance. I know many American NFA owners who routinely shoot their suppressed machine guns in their backyards (with suitable backstops of course).

> Again, it varies state to state. Some states only require you to be like 16

Minimum age to purchase a firearm is 18, as defined by federal law. Some states have it higher, usually 21.

As for whether .22's are considered firearms, that depends on how you define "firearm". In Canada, a firearm is any barrelled weapon that is capable of discharging a projectile that can cause serious bodily harm or death. There are exceptions to this, the biggest one being that if the muzzle velocity does not exceed 500 fps the device is NOT considered a firearm. That means most BB and pellet, airsoft, and paintball guns are exempt. However, this also means that 40mm grenade launchers are exempt. I know of a dealer in Ontario that has three genuine Colt M203's for sale at $1200 a piece, and absolutely NO paperwork is required. Even a 10 year old can go in and purchase it. I plan on ordering one soon for my AR-15, just as a cool accessory and collector's item. Explosive grenades are obviously not available but there are inert training rounds around.

Hey Repairman_Jack, if you'd like I can get one of these launchers for ya (works out to around $850 US), strip all the parts off the receiver and send them to you as a complete parts kit. I'd offer the whole thing to you but I've asked around and apparently M203's don't meet the ATF's "sporting use" criteria, and even the stripped receiver isn't importable. Let me know if you're interested.

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Gryphon/JTF2
Striving for Excellence in Small Arms Data

=JTF2= Infiltration Server Info (http://members.home.net/freedomstoystore)

5th Feb 2000, 09:03 AM
I can't believe the amount of misinformation presented here on this issue. I'm Canadian and I know more about US gun laws than the average American gun owner. Corrections:

> No. Fully automatic weapons are illegal to purchase or possess in the U.S.

Absolutely 100% DEAD WRONG. Full automatics, sawed off shotguns, suppressors, mustard gas grenades, and 105mm howitzers are ALL legally obtainable, depending on whether or not the particular state allows the ownership of NFA (National Firearms Act of 1934) weaponry.

Each NFA weapon requires a transfer tax to be paid on it when transferred. Machine guns, suppressors, destructive devices (DD), short-barrelled shotguns (SBS), and short-barrelled rifles (SBR), all require a $200 transfer tax. Any other weapons (AOW) like smoothbore pistols and pen guns are a $5 tax. Manufacturing tax is $200. To purchase, you need to submit a form 3/4 to the ATF with fingerprint card, passport photos, CLEO signoff, and cheque for the transfer tax. Typical turnaround is 3 to 6 months, sometimes shorter, often a LOT longer.

Machine guns can no longer be manufactured for civilian purchase. All machine guns in private hands had to have been registered before May of 1986 and are considered "transferable". Pre-May dealer samples are transferable only to class 02 FFL/class 07 SOT holders, but the holder can retain the firearm after they relinquish their permits. Post-May dealer samples are transferable as above but must be transfered to another dealer if the current holder gives up their licenses. Post-May samples also require the transferee to have a PD demo request letter on official department letterhead.

Suppressors, SBR's and SBS's can be manufactured by ANYONE so long as they submit a Form 1 with transfer tax and relevant info. Destructive devices can only be manufactured by Type 10 (?) FFL's, which is Manufacturer of Destructive Devices. DD's cover explosive ordnance, poison gas explosives, and large-bore firearms (any firearm over .50 cal).

And to prove this isn't all BS culled from my imagination, visit Tom Bowers' Politically Incorrect Machine Gun Pages (http://www.subguns.com) and click on the NFA Ad Board. M-11/9's, M-16's, MP-5's, 1919A4's, all manner of machine guns and nasty toys to be had. Pay special attention to the prices however.

> Possibly. It might break some kind of housing code, but if you had good sound-proofing and it didn't piss off your neighbors you could probably get away with it.

Usually it depends on the local ordinances, although from what I understand in most areas you can fire your gun anywhere you want so long as you're not endangering anyone or causing a disturbance. I know many American NFA owners who routinely shoot their suppressed machine guns in their backyards (with suitable backstops of course).

> Again, it varies state to state. Some states only require you to be like 16

Minimum age to purchase a firearm is 18, as defined by federal law. Some states have it higher, usually 21.

As for whether .22's are considered firearms, that depends on how you define "firearm". In Canada, a firearm is any barrelled weapon that is capable of discharging a projectile that can cause serious bodily harm or death. There are exceptions to this, the biggest one being that if the muzzle velocity does not exceed 500 fps the device is NOT considered a firearm. That means most BB and pellet, airsoft, and paintball guns are exempt. However, this also means that 40mm grenade launchers are exempt. I know of a dealer in Ontario that has three genuine Colt M203's for sale at $1200 a piece, and absolutely NO paperwork is required. Even a 10 year old can go in and purchase it. I plan on ordering one soon for my AR-15, just as a cool accessory and collector's item. Explosive grenades are obviously not available but there are inert training rounds around.

Hey Repairman_Jack, if you'd like I can get one of these launchers for ya (works out to around $850 US), strip all the parts off the receiver and send them to you as a complete parts kit. I'd offer the whole thing to you but I've asked around and apparently M203's don't meet the ATF's "sporting use" criteria, and even the stripped receiver isn't importable. Let me know if you're interested.

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Gryphon/JTF2
Striving for Excellence in Small Arms Data

=JTF2= Infiltration Server Info (http://members.home.net/freedomstoystore)

Repairman_Jack
5th Feb 2000, 10:56 AM
I've got five S&W 37mm launchers that I'm refurbing for the Texas Dept. of Public Safety. The 203 is a little heavy for the average folks I get stuff for. I don't personally own a lot of heavy weapons, too expensive to own legally, and the ATF watches me like a hawk /infopop/emoticons\icon_wink.gif

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SEZ
Jon
--Peace through absurd amounts of firepower--

Jikida
5th Feb 2000, 12:24 PM
Sorry but I must say this. The gun laws in USA are ****ed up. What does a person do with a machine gun? I personally know something about guns and after I turn 20, i will know more( at the age of 18-21 you have to go to Army in Finland. I`m thinking about joining a sort of navy seal-force.

It isn`t like any country would attack USA or anything. You don`t do **** with a m16 for self-defense. I wouldn`t wonder a bit if you americans went hunting with a bazooka.

Jikida
5th Feb 2000, 12:24 PM
Sorry but I must say this. The gun laws in USA are ****ed up. What does a person do with a machine gun? I personally know something about guns and after I turn 20, i will know more( at the age of 18-21 you have to go to Army in Finland. I`m thinking about joining a sort of navy seal-force.

It isn`t like any country would attack USA or anything. You don`t do **** with a m16 for self-defense. I wouldn`t wonder a bit if you americans went hunting with a bazooka.

Repairman_Jack
5th Feb 2000, 05:22 PM
I guess its kind of like collecting cars. You don't really need a Jaguar AND a Ferrari, but it is a lot of fun to drive both of them.

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SEZ
Jon
--Peace through absurd amounts of firepower--

Jaguar
5th Feb 2000, 07:00 PM
Funny, I have heard a lot about it being illegal to buy fully automatic guns here in the US. I'm talking to you, Mr. Smart Canadian. Anyone I ask say full auto is illegal. I do however have a book called "should we have gun control?" and it has a page with a ton of neat little gun pics and says at the bottom:

The Senate voted to ban these weapons in the 1989 Anti-Drug, Assault Weapons Limitation Act. In 1991, a similar bill was defeated in the House of Representatives, so the ban did not become law. Such weapons are still legal.

The guns shown are: AK-47 (awwwww yeah...), Steyr AUG (surprisingly good in Rogue Spear), Mac-11 and Mac-10 (beat the Uzi's by a mile), UZI Pistol, TEC-9 (dirty lil ganster gun), UZI Carbine (UZI w/stock and long barrel + Carbine rounds) FNC, FN-FAL, Colt AR-15, Berretta AR-70, Galil (Israel's brand!), Colt CAR-15 (best in Rainbow Six), Striker 12/Streetsweeper (cheesy, but the only one that looks most like a shotgun.)

I don't know who's side I'm on =p

Catalyst
5th Feb 2000, 07:36 PM
Last time I answer any questions on this board /infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

Catalyst
5th Feb 2000, 07:47 PM
Gryphon: Just one question. I don't know if I'm missing here, but if you go to that CNN address I posted up there and click on the US gun laws state-by-state, you'll see one of the criteria is:

Juvenile Sale or Transfer Law -- bars the sale or transfer of specified guns by anyone to a person under 18.

However, not all states have this law. Doesn't that mean you don't have to 18 to purchase a weapon? If there was a federal law, why would states even need this law, since federal law supercedes state law?

Catalyst
5th Feb 2000, 08:06 PM
Well, I did a little more research and discovered this:

Federal law [18 U.S.C. 922(b)(1)] prohibits any federally licensed firearms dealer from selling or delivering handguns to a person under the age of 21. However, the federal juvenile possession ban [18 U.S.C. 922 (x)] makes if unlawful for persons under the age of 18 from possessing handguns. Unless prohibited by state law, sales of handguns to persons between the ages of 18 and 21 take place in the secondary or private market.

I think I'm clear enough on this now. /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

If you're interested, you can read the specific code:
http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/18/922.html

(Check section b)

[This message has been edited by Catalyst (edited 02-05-2000).]

Repairman_Jack
5th Feb 2000, 08:29 PM
The kicker is I could not SELL a firearm to one of those "minors", but I could SELL one to their mother, father, uncle, etc. and they could GIVE them it. And as I long as I could prove that I had no knowledge of that second transaction, I would have commited no crime legally, ethically that's another kettle of kimchi. I don't make the laws, I just obey them.

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SEZ
Jon
--Peace through absurd amounts of firepower--

5th Feb 2000, 09:19 PM
Jikida, you're right, absolutely NOBODY needs a machine gun. Nobody on this earth needs a gun at all. On that same token, YOU don't NEED a computer. YOU don't NEED a car. YOU don't NEED any of the toys and interesting things you own. The only thing a human NEEDS is food, shelter and clothing. Everything else is just a toy.

I'm guessing you've never shot a machine gun before, thus you don't know how goddamn fun it is. It's been described as being "the most fun you can have with your pants on". People own machine guns because they WANT them, just like Jay Leno WANTS all those fancy cars he owns.

And Jaguar, go visit the site I mentioned above. Whoever is telling you that full auto is illegal is completely misinformed. Here, click this link:

Subguns.com WTS/WTT HK MP5A3 (http://subguns.biggerhammer.net/nfaad.cgi?read=7260)

What state are you in? I'll tell you if you'd be eligible to buy it.

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Gryphon/JTF2
Striving for Excellence in Small Arms Data

=JTF2= Infiltration Server Info (http://members.home.net/freedomstoystore)

5th Feb 2000, 09:19 PM
Jikida, you're right, absolutely NOBODY needs a machine gun. Nobody on this earth needs a gun at all. On that same token, YOU don't NEED a computer. YOU don't NEED a car. YOU don't NEED any of the toys and interesting things you own. The only thing a human NEEDS is food, shelter and clothing. Everything else is just a toy.

I'm guessing you've never shot a machine gun before, thus you don't know how goddamn fun it is. It's been described as being "the most fun you can have with your pants on". People own machine guns because they WANT them, just like Jay Leno WANTS all those fancy cars he owns.

And Jaguar, go visit the site I mentioned above. Whoever is telling you that full auto is illegal is completely misinformed. Here, click this link:

Subguns.com WTS/WTT HK MP5A3 (http://subguns.biggerhammer.net/nfaad.cgi?read=7260)

What state are you in? I'll tell you if you'd be eligible to buy it.

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Gryphon/JTF2
Striving for Excellence in Small Arms Data

=JTF2= Infiltration Server Info (http://members.home.net/freedomstoystore)

Repairman_Jack
5th Feb 2000, 10:20 PM
Actually It can be easier to obtain a SMG than a Concealed Carry Weapons permit.
In other info on a Class III Federal Firearms license-- http://www.recguns.com/IIF1.html
Check it out its pretty interesting reading.
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SEZ
Jon
--Peace through absurd amounts of firepower--

[This message has been edited by Repairman_Jack (edited 02-05-2000).]

Derek
5th Feb 2000, 11:34 PM
Lets say in FL, can an 18-21 year old get his hands on a Steyr Aug/M-16/FA-MAS?

Oh, and one other question, are machine guns obtained always "2nd hand" or used, ot can they be obtained "factory fresh"?

[This message has been edited by Derek (edited 02-05-2000).]

Corin
6th Feb 2000, 01:40 AM
In California, you must be 18 to PURCHASE a rifle or shotgun. BB, pellet and paintball guns are not cosidered firearms, even such that discharge at 1000 fps, pretty damned fast for a BB gun.

To purchase a pistol you must be 21 AND you have to get a permit/background check. All felonies will disqualify you from legally owning a handgun, as well as some misdemeanors. I am also pretty sure that frquency and the amount of police/court action will disqualify you, like being drunk in public 6 or 7 times. In addition to the permit/background check, there is a 15 day waiting period(I think it may have been raised to 30 days, and I have heard that their is a move to make it 90.)

Also, a child may shoot a gun if he is properly learned gun safety and maintenance, he may not own it, but may use it, i.e. It is his parents gun but he may use it while being supervised by a legal owner and must have permission. I am not sure but I have heard that the minimum age is 14 for this.

If I am wrong please correct me. I am too lazy to go out and see myself.

6th Feb 2000, 01:42 AM
Derek, if you mean the semiautomatic clones then yes. If you mean the full automatic assault rifles, then yes. I'm not positive on the minimum age requirement, you'd have to check FL laws.

Expect to pay $3400 to $4200 for a semiautomatic Steyr AUG (depending on options and stock color), $700 to $2500 for a semiautomatic AR-15 (again, depending on options and whether it's pre or post-ban), and upwards of $8000 for an original semiautomatic FAMAS. I even saw a semi SIG-551 on the ad boards recently. Only $10,000.

For full auto specimens, Steyr AUG's fetch around $7000 to $8000, M-16's around $4000 to $8000 (depending on model), and I don't think there are any transferable FAMAS rifles out there. Pre and post dealer samples maybe, but they'll be super expensive too. Probably at least $10,000.

And yes, machine guns are available new in the box, if the original owner kept it that way. Remember, NO machine guns manufactured after May 1986 can be owned by civilians without an FFL (Federal Firearms License, equates to a dealer's license). That means unless you're a dealer, forget about owning a real HK UMP-45. Sorry.

Also remember though that the only part of the gun that's registered is the receiver. That means that if you shoot 120,000 rounds through your M-16, all you need is a new barrel (and maybe a few internal components) and you're good to go. Guns can be refinished and restored to look brand new. Some highly skilled manufacturers can even take a torch cut receiver and WELD IT BACK TOGETHER to form an operational firearm. Now THAT is a feat of engineering.

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Gryphon/JTF2
Striving for Excellence in Small Arms Data

=JTF2= Infiltration Server Info (http://members.home.net/freedomstoystore)

6th Feb 2000, 01:42 AM
Derek, if you mean the semiautomatic clones then yes. If you mean the full automatic assault rifles, then yes. I'm not positive on the minimum age requirement, you'd have to check FL laws.

Expect to pay $3400 to $4200 for a semiautomatic Steyr AUG (depending on options and stock color), $700 to $2500 for a semiautomatic AR-15 (again, depending on options and whether it's pre or post-ban), and upwards of $8000 for an original semiautomatic FAMAS. I even saw a semi SIG-551 on the ad boards recently. Only $10,000.

For full auto specimens, Steyr AUG's fetch around $7000 to $8000, M-16's around $4000 to $8000 (depending on model), and I don't think there are any transferable FAMAS rifles out there. Pre and post dealer samples maybe, but they'll be super expensive too. Probably at least $10,000.

And yes, machine guns are available new in the box, if the original owner kept it that way. Remember, NO machine guns manufactured after May 1986 can be owned by civilians without an FFL (Federal Firearms License, equates to a dealer's license). That means unless you're a dealer, forget about owning a real HK UMP-45. Sorry.

Also remember though that the only part of the gun that's registered is the receiver. That means that if you shoot 120,000 rounds through your M-16, all you need is a new barrel (and maybe a few internal components) and you're good to go. Guns can be refinished and restored to look brand new. Some highly skilled manufacturers can even take a torch cut receiver and WELD IT BACK TOGETHER to form an operational firearm. Now THAT is a feat of engineering.

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Gryphon/JTF2
Striving for Excellence in Small Arms Data

=JTF2= Infiltration Server Info (http://members.home.net/freedomstoystore)

Derek
6th Feb 2000, 01:51 AM
Thanks Gryphon, that was really helpful.

So, there are no civilians with legally owned assault rifles that were made after 1986?

There is no way at all for an average Joe to legally own a ump-45?

That doesn't seem like a good thing. In 20 years, everyone will still have to be recycling the same pre-1986 weapons?

6th Feb 2000, 03:52 AM
Derek, yeah, basically that's the gist of it. But remember, the price and procedure required to obtain an NFA weapon usually prevents Joe Average from getting one. There are many NFA firearms out there that are still new in the box, unfired. Many people buy NFA firearms as investments and never take them to the range. Personally I think that's a travesty, to have a gun and never shoot it.

Also remember that it's ONLY machine guns that are not manufacturable for civilians now. DD's can still be made, and suppressors, SBR's, SBS's, and AOW's can even be made by the civilians themselves so long as they submit their Form 1 to the ATF. Yes, that means YOU, if you're of legal age and live in a state that allows posession, can file a Form 1 with transfer tax, fingerprints, etc. and when it's approved, make your own silencer. LEGALLY.

The route a lot of people are taking now, and this is usually reserved for people with machine work experience and a hard-core affection for guns, is to become a type 02 FFL/type 07 SOT (Special Occupational Tax), which is a manufacturer of NFA weapons (except DD's). You can make all the machine guns you want, legally. Sell them to police departments for profit. Buy post-samples like the UMP-45 if you have a letter from your police department requesting a demo of it. But this route is usually VERY expensive (the licenses are on the order of several thousand a year IIRC), and you have to be zoned properly, ie. no making MAC-10's in your garage.

Explore Tom Bowers' site above, I've learned almost everything I know about US gun laws simply by reading it and participating on the discussion boards.

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Gryphon/JTF2
Striving for Excellence in Small Arms Data

=JTF2= Infiltration Server Info (http://members.home.net/freedomstoystore)

6th Feb 2000, 03:52 AM
Derek, yeah, basically that's the gist of it. But remember, the price and procedure required to obtain an NFA weapon usually prevents Joe Average from getting one. There are many NFA firearms out there that are still new in the box, unfired. Many people buy NFA firearms as investments and never take them to the range. Personally I think that's a travesty, to have a gun and never shoot it.

Also remember that it's ONLY machine guns that are not manufacturable for civilians now. DD's can still be made, and suppressors, SBR's, SBS's, and AOW's can even be made by the civilians themselves so long as they submit their Form 1 to the ATF. Yes, that means YOU, if you're of legal age and live in a state that allows posession, can file a Form 1 with transfer tax, fingerprints, etc. and when it's approved, make your own silencer. LEGALLY.

The route a lot of people are taking now, and this is usually reserved for people with machine work experience and a hard-core affection for guns, is to become a type 02 FFL/type 07 SOT (Special Occupational Tax), which is a manufacturer of NFA weapons (except DD's). You can make all the machine guns you want, legally. Sell them to police departments for profit. Buy post-samples like the UMP-45 if you have a letter from your police department requesting a demo of it. But this route is usually VERY expensive (the licenses are on the order of several thousand a year IIRC), and you have to be zoned properly, ie. no making MAC-10's in your garage.

Explore Tom Bowers' site above, I've learned almost everything I know about US gun laws simply by reading it and participating on the discussion boards.

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Gryphon/JTF2
Striving for Excellence in Small Arms Data

=JTF2= Infiltration Server Info (http://members.home.net/freedomstoystore)

Repairman_Jack
6th Feb 2000, 02:18 PM
I built a Sten Mark 2 about three years ago, just to see if I could actually do it. After it was completed I dissassembled it and demilled the reciever (ATF has NO sense of history!). If I had wanted to go through the cost and paperwork to get my Class II I could have kept it quite legally.
During WWII it was calculated that the Sten Mark 1 cost on the average less then $7.00 US to manufacture.

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SEZ
Jon
--I don't kill people, I make the things killers use, kill better--

Derek
6th Feb 2000, 02:56 PM
How exactly do you go about making a MAC-10?

You mean from a kit right?

Repairman_Jack
6th Feb 2000, 03:42 PM
I cheat, I'm a machinist.

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SEZ
Jon
--I don't kill people, I make the things killers use, kill better--

INF_Neo
6th Feb 2000, 06:59 PM
Can you build me a HK G11 and send it via air mail?

6th Feb 2000, 07:07 PM
MAC's can be made from the commonly available MAC frame flats. Basically they're the lower receiver in a flattened form, they have to be bent up to form the lower receiver and drilled for selector holes, mag well, etc. Then you need a parts set to complete it (all internals, upper receiver, barrel, etc.). Not an easy task for Joe Average to do.

My specialty is AR-15's. I can build one from scratch assuming no machine work is involved. FN-FAL's are also good kit guns to put together, although I've never built one.

Hey Repairman_Jack, why you be dissin the Krinkov? That's not an ugly AK!

http://www.securityarms.com/pics/270.jpg

THAT'S an ugly AK! /infopop/emoticons\icon_wink.gif

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Gryphon/JTF2
Striving for Excellence in Small Arms Data

=JTF2= Infiltration Server Info (http://members.home.net/freedomstoystore)

6th Feb 2000, 07:07 PM
MAC's can be made from the commonly available MAC frame flats. Basically they're the lower receiver in a flattened form, they have to be bent up to form the lower receiver and drilled for selector holes, mag well, etc. Then you need a parts set to complete it (all internals, upper receiver, barrel, etc.). Not an easy task for Joe Average to do.

My specialty is AR-15's. I can build one from scratch assuming no machine work is involved. FN-FAL's are also good kit guns to put together, although I've never built one.

Hey Repairman_Jack, why you be dissin the Krinkov? That's not an ugly AK!

http://www.securityarms.com/pics/270.jpg

THAT'S an ugly AK! /infopop/emoticons\icon_wink.gif

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Gryphon/JTF2
Striving for Excellence in Small Arms Data

=JTF2= Infiltration Server Info (http://members.home.net/freedomstoystore)

Derek
6th Feb 2000, 07:19 PM
I had no idea you could just build "name brand" guns from kits.

Damn, as soon as I get back to the U.S. I have to get started on the paperwork.

Repairman_Jack
6th Feb 2000, 08:04 PM
AR-15s are a breeze, lots of documention, easy to get bits and pieces. FN_FALs aren't bad either. Sure Neo, get an End-User permit first then we'll talk http://members.home.net/ironchefwilly/q3w/smileys/018.gif

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SEZ
Jon
--I don't kill people, I make killing people better--

Toysrme
6th Feb 2000, 08:43 PM
juz 1 comment out of alot i could make=)

dinkkly little .22?
i'll bet anyamout of money that moree pl havee been shot in the us from .22 and .25 caliber pistols and rifles than any other combined.

notonly that a .22 long will go 5-miles if you get the angle jsut right using the right gun=)

(and those itty bitty hollowpts and little buggers=)

not nearly as affective as alarger round. but
if u had a .22 cal 5*7 i'll bet youd hold 40 fricken rounds of .22short =)
(that could be neat /infopop/emoticons\icon_wink.gif

Toysrme
6th Feb 2000, 08:52 PM
oh ya btw.
you can't legaly purchase a gun in alaba unless 18
but you can own one at 11(inherited) i know my grandfather left me sevrial good remington semi 12gauge shotguns.

a neat fact most of yall don't know=)
toyz has a licence to carry any gun in the US excluding military bases and the like....... and i'm 16 1/2

(it's neat i was deputized on the spot with my grandfather b4 he passed on. some ppl we're cutting down his trees(owned about 500 acres, mostly swamp. so him(also deputy)and the sherrif n me go out there to throw them off=) long story shot i got deputized and we got to kick them off n sue them
it was great=)
(that was when i was 15)
now don't ask me if it's legal or not but it happened=)
(i've got the papers in a safe deposite box)

6th Feb 2000, 09:09 PM
Uh, Toys, I think there's a big difference between being deputized and being a LEO. Not to rain on your parade, but if I were you I wouldn't try carrying based on deputization. Maybe 40 years ago when you could leave your doors unlocked, but this modern mentality of kids shooting up schools will quash that real quick.

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Gryphon/JTF2
Striving for Excellence in Small Arms Data

=JTF2= Infiltration Server Info (http://members.home.net/freedomstoystore)

6th Feb 2000, 09:09 PM
Uh, Toys, I think there's a big difference between being deputized and being a LEO. Not to rain on your parade, but if I were you I wouldn't try carrying based on deputization. Maybe 40 years ago when you could leave your doors unlocked, but this modern mentality of kids shooting up schools will quash that real quick.

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Gryphon/JTF2
Striving for Excellence in Small Arms Data

=JTF2= Infiltration Server Info (http://members.home.net/freedomstoystore)

Toysrme
6th Feb 2000, 09:28 PM
heh no joke.

Toysrme
6th Feb 2000, 09:29 PM
dude we had some dumbass arrested last tuesday for having dynamite in his trenchcoat

(wee can't wear trenchcoats nemore either=)

what an absilute dumbass.......

Corin
7th Feb 2000, 03:44 AM
Dynamite!? Did he have blast caps and all that crap? Or was he one of those goth dorks trying to be cool? "Hey guys wanna buy some dynamite?" Duh Uh Huh!

7th Feb 2000, 04:22 AM
Heh, knowing the media these days and how many liberal pacifist c*cksuckers there are out there, this kid probably had some ladyfingers or blaster snaps. But since that doesn't sell stories or make new laws, it HAD to be dynamite. Just like my AR-15 is a high-powered, long-range, armor-piercing, baby-murdering, cop-killing, teflon-coated, sniper-scoped, night-visioned, rapid-fire, high-capacity, super-killing, never-miss semiautomatic machine gun assault weapon of mass destruction that spews 1 million bullets per second with horrifying accuracy into little old ladies and kids. Makes me sick.

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Gryphon/JTF2
Striving for Excellence in Small Arms Data

=JTF2= Infiltration Server Info (http://members.home.net/freedomstoystore)

7th Feb 2000, 04:22 AM
Heh, knowing the media these days and how many liberal pacifist c*cksuckers there are out there, this kid probably had some ladyfingers or blaster snaps. But since that doesn't sell stories or make new laws, it HAD to be dynamite. Just like my AR-15 is a high-powered, long-range, armor-piercing, baby-murdering, cop-killing, teflon-coated, sniper-scoped, night-visioned, rapid-fire, high-capacity, super-killing, never-miss semiautomatic machine gun assault weapon of mass destruction that spews 1 million bullets per second with horrifying accuracy into little old ladies and kids. Makes me sick.

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Gryphon/JTF2
Striving for Excellence in Small Arms Data

=JTF2= Infiltration Server Info (http://members.home.net/freedomstoystore)

Catalyst
7th Feb 2000, 04:58 AM
You mean it isn't? Damn.

Warren
7th Feb 2000, 06:13 AM
Don't try this at home..

One time, I was taking my wife to the airport- we were visiting my folks in Vegas and she was going back early- I brought my dad's money bag w. me, using it to carry some homework and whatnot.. Walked through the detectors, dropped off my wife, then walked back out- only to discover after we left that I forgot to take out my dad's Sig .40 in the side pocket...

feel that warm, fuzzy security blanket yet?

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Warren
Project Coordinator
i n f i l t r a t i o n
http://www.planetunreal.com/infiltration

Questions? Check out our Roadmap (http://www.planetunreal.com/infiltration/roadmap.htm).
Then check out our FAQ (http://www.planetunreal.com/infiltration/3.0/faq.htm).

Corin
7th Feb 2000, 08:53 PM
Remind me to keep on the ground when going to Vegas.

MiscMan
8th Feb 2000, 06:22 PM
Some weirdo statistics for ya /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

More likely to get killed by parents than in school shootings(not really weird, really sad /infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif )

More likely to drown in a bucket than get eaten by sharks

Termites make more methane than cows /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Demographers think war is a good thing

Gosh, can't remember any other ones.

On a sadder note, I read something about a guy who ran over pre-schoolers in a cadillac. Thats not even the awful part. A parent went to the news, and the news said it wasnt worth even 5 minutes of air time.


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MiscMan

mmmmmmmm...realism

INF_Neo
9th Feb 2000, 09:03 AM
Okay, Jack, I've got the permission now. Can you send it in let's say 2 weeks?

Repairman_Jack
9th Feb 2000, 10:58 AM
No, I said End-User permit, plus I have to file for my import/export license.

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SEZ
Jon
--I don't kill people, I make killing people better--

INF_Neo
9th Feb 2000, 12:10 PM
...hm, so you won't send me that? Okay, what about the SMG2?
Can you build me a light saber?

JediLuke
9th Feb 2000, 04:46 PM
Heh, want to hear something pathetic? I was in the school computer lab and I finished my work, so I went to securityarms.com. A teacher saw it and threatened to expel my friend and I just for looking at it. Apparently, the mere knowledge of firearms is evil now. Stupid people! Oh yea, and in New Jersey, it's apparently illegal to even own an airsoft gun that fires 6 mm plastic BBs at around 200-400 fps and has the barrel painted orange. Or at least, this is what I've gathered, if anyone can prove otherwise, I'd be greatful.

~Jedi

9th Feb 2000, 11:07 PM
Christ, it seems Canada is becoming more of the land of the free than the States these days! Time to take your guns, my southern friends, and tell the government where to go - just like you did many many years ago.

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Gryphon/JTF2
Striving for Excellence in Small Arms Data

=JTF2= Infiltration Server Info (http://members.home.net/freedomstoystore)

9th Feb 2000, 11:07 PM
Christ, it seems Canada is becoming more of the land of the free than the States these days! Time to take your guns, my southern friends, and tell the government where to go - just like you did many many years ago.

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Gryphon/JTF2
Striving for Excellence in Small Arms Data

=JTF2= Infiltration Server Info (http://members.home.net/freedomstoystore)

ShakKen
9th Feb 2000, 11:38 PM
Ignorance is a horrible thing.