California DOJ Screws The Pooch On Gun Grab

  • Two Factor Authentication is now available on BeyondUnreal Forums. To configure it, visit your Profile and look for the "Two Step Verification" option on the left side. We can send codes via email (may be slower) or you can set up any TOTP Authenticator app on your phone (Authy, Google Authenticator, etc) to deliver codes. It is highly recommended that you configure this to keep your account safe.

SaraP

New Member
Feb 12, 2002
935
0
0
The Land of the Governator
CHAGRINED CALIFORNIA DOJ GUN POLICE RETURN IMPROPERLY CONFISCATED RIFLES
DOJ Firearms Division's Own Agents Confused About What Constitutes An "Assault Weapon"

On November 25, 2003 the California DOJ announced the seizure of a number of illegal "assault weapons" from a Laguna Niguel gun dealer. One of the guns on display in the store was a Robinson Armament model M96 rifle. Believing this rifle to be an illegal "assault weapon," DOJ Firearms Division agents used the store's transaction records to locate each purchaser of the M96 rifle, then went door to door, often in the dead of night, confiscating the firearms under threat of criminal prosecution. One such raid was videotaped. No compensation was offered for the seized firearms.

Only problem: the M96 rifle is perfectly legal and is not an "assault weapon." Thankfully, higher ups at the DOJ Firearms Division got involved at the urging of CRPA and others, and reversed the Agents' interpretation. The confiscations illustrate the difficulty in determining whether a firearm is an "assault weapon." Even the specialized DOJ Firearms Division's own agents, with their advanced training on the subject, couldn't tell. So, then how is the average gun owner supposed to know?

The confusion inherent in the statute lead the District Attorneys in Fresno and Mendocino counties to file an unprecedented prosecutor vs. prosecutor lawsuit against the Attorney General over the vagueness of the law when it first passed. Hunt v. Lockyer (Fresno Superior Court #01 CE CG 03182) is still being litigated, and challenges the 1999 amendment to the state's "assault weapon" law that bans firearms based on their cosmetic features. The lawsuit points out that the law does not provide gun owners, dealers, police, or prosecutors with sufficient guidance to determine what features on a firearm are prohibited so they cannot enforce the law fairly and unilaterally or determine how to comply with it. A letter from District Attorney Hunt explaining the lawsuit is available at the CRPA's website.

In seizing the M96 rifles, the DOJ Firearms Division agents mistakenly believed that the model M96 was illegal because of one statutory definition of an "assault weapon" includes any semi-automatic centerfire rifle with the capacity to accept a detachable magazine and a conspicuously protruding pistol grip. Although the M96 does not have a pistol grip, the agents wrongfully believed that the "capacity to accept" provision applies to both the detachable magazine and the pistol grip. The agents believed the M96 was an "assault weapon" because it has the "capacity to accept" a pistol grip - as many guns do.

"We have been aware of the confusion since this law was passed in 1999," said CRPA spokesman Chuck Michel. "The practical effect of that confusion is that the law has created a whole class of accidental felons in California."

CRPA attempted to clear up the pistol grip issue last year when its attorneys wrote DOJ for clarification. Luckily, DOJ's written responses were available to prove the DOJ's Agents were wrong. Using those previous DOJ responses, attorneys from both the CRPA and Robinson Armament were on the phone with DOJ immediately after the raids started.

"We had to e-mail the DOJ copies of their own documents that detail specifically why the M96 is not an 'assault weapon'" said Robinson Armament attorney Jason Davis. "These kind of 'mistakes' by DOJ terrorize law abiding customers and damage my client financially."

Approximately one week after seizing the model M96 rifles, DOJ's Agents began returning the model M96 rifles to their owners.

Observations:

1. The assault weapons ban is so poorly written that not even trained CDOJ Stormtroopers...er, Agents...er, officers...can figure it out.

2. California DOJ's policy is to bust down doors now, worry about the law later.

3. The argument that gun registration doesn't lead to gun confiscation is utterly bunk.
 
Last edited:

jaunty

Active Member
Apr 30, 2000
2,506
0
36
Quick! Wrap yourself in the constitution before the jackbooted stormthug nazi troopers bust down your door to take away the M2HB that you need to hunt rabbits!
 

SaraP

New Member
Feb 12, 2002
935
0
0
The Land of the Governator
jaunty said:
Quick! Wrap yourself in the constitution before the jackbooted stormthug nazi troopers bust down your door to take away the M2HB that you need to hunt rabbits!

The Browning M2HB would be an NFA Class III weapon since it's a full-automatic machine gun, not a so-called "assault weapon". It's worth nothing that the only times legally registered Class III weapons were ever used to commit a crime were two separate incidents in which SWAT operators went on shooting sprees with department-issued MP5 submachine guns; every other crime ever committed with a full automatic weapon involved a semiautomatic weapon illegally modified to full automatic configuration.
 

jaunty

Active Member
Apr 30, 2000
2,506
0
36
Thanks for that, Queen Jargon of Technika. I did not know those useless statstics. You have done me a great service.

I think you missed the point. Re read what I said, strip away the cynicism, and try to figure out which part of your post I was taking the piss from. It wasn't the part about the legalities of a heavy machine gun.
 

anaemic

she touch your penis?
Jan 7, 2002
3,124
0
0
39
london, uk
bust down doors and think about the law later?
wasnt that exactly what you were supporting in the computer h4x0r thread?

these gun nuts obviously got what they deserve for associating themselves with the sort of people who'd own such illegal weaponry ;)
 

5eleven

I don't give a f**k, call the Chaplain
Mar 23, 2003
787
0
0
Ohio
Visit site
Thanks for that, Queen Jargon of Technika. I did not know those useless statstics. You have done me a great service.

:lol: OMFG, that's the single funniest line I've ever read! :lol:
 

SaraP

New Member
Feb 12, 2002
935
0
0
The Land of the Governator
anaemic said:
bust down doors and think about the law later?
wasnt that exactly what you were supporting in the computer h4x0r thread?

No, I said the FBI did the right thing in that case because they had evidence and a search warrant. In doing so, they followed the procedures laid down by the Constitution to the letter, which is exactly the opposite of "bust down doors and think about the law later".

these gun nuts obviously got what they deserve for associating themselves with the sort of people who'd own such illegal weaponry ;)

The point is that the weapons in question were not illegal -- the agents thought they were because they looked like Evil Assault Weapons (tm), and instead of checking the law to determine whether or not they were right, they went ahead and started raiding peoples' homes in the dead of night to confiscate the guns without compensation.

This is analogous to the FBI breaking into your home and seizing your computer because an FBI agent somewhere decided it looked like the kind of computer a hacker would have.
 
Last edited:

Freon

Braaaaiinss...
Jan 27, 2002
4,546
0
0
43
France
www.3dfrags.com
SaraP said:
This is analogous to the FBI breaking into your home and seizing your computer because an FBI agent somewhere decided it looked like the kind of computer a hacker would have.
In other words it's the exact same thing as in the haxx0r thread...
 

SaraP

New Member
Feb 12, 2002
935
0
0
The Land of the Governator
Freon said:
In other words it's the exact same thing as in the haxx0r thread...

Wrong. In the hacker case, the FBI had evidence that the guy's computers were involved, sufficient evidence to get a search warrant. In this case, the California DOJ raided gun owners without search warrants because DOJ agents thought the M96 was an assault rifle, even though the DOJ itself had previously approved the M96 as NOT being an assault rifle!
 

Hadmar

Queen Bitch of the Universe
Jan 29, 2001
5,558
42
48
Nerdpole
Hacker case:
Feds have evidence that x is involved in what they think/know is a crime.
This case:
Feds have evidence that x owns what they think/know is illegal.

Quite similar, no?

The article dosn't make clear if they entered the house. I might be wrong but AFAIK you only need a search warrant if the guy dosn't want to let you in.

We've been "raided" by the police without search warrant once. We bought one of the first/the first electro shockers aviable in Germany. Turned out they need to be certified / need to be aproved, whatever before they can be legaly selled and owned and that model wasn't. The cop rang the bell, we answerd, he explained that the ES is illegal and that he had to take it with him, we handed it over, he didn't enter the flat a single time (he didn't even ask), end of story. Frankly, apart from my general dislike/hate for the gov telling me what I can own and what not I don't see a big problem with that.
 
Last edited:

Nightmare

Only human
Sep 23, 2001
446
0
0
50
Finland
Visit site
"DOJ Firearms Division agents used the store's transaction records to locate each purchaser of the M96 rifle, then went door to door, often in the dead of night, confiscating the firearms under threat of criminal prosecution. One such raid was videotaped. No compensation was offered for the seized firearms."

Doesn't sound like any doors were broken down, does it? The agents just threatened Joe Average with the law, and none of the owners dared resist. So the text was vague enough to mislead not only the agents but also the guys who already bought what they thought were legal guns.
 

JaFO

bugs are features too ...
Nov 5, 2000
8,408
0
0
So what else is new ?
Every law is open to interpretation. That's why there's lawyers ... that's why lawyers make sure you will need lawyers.

Even the frelling constitution the americans keep waving whenever there is 'evil' being comitted by 'the man' (ie : the one in power that opposes whatever you claim is 'good') is about as clear as muddy water.
 

SaraP

New Member
Feb 12, 2002
935
0
0
The Land of the Governator
The fact that they made a mistake is understandable.

The fact that the agents went ahead with confiscation without checking with their own legal division to see if the guns were actually illegal or not is disturbing.
 
Aug 12, 2000
488
0
0
48
Switzerland
Nightmare said:
The agents just threatened Joe Average with the law, and none of the owners dared resist.

Which shows that even the phrase "from my cold dead hands" is open to at least some interpretation, apparently... :lol:
 

Freon

Braaaaiinss...
Jan 27, 2002
4,546
0
0
43
France
www.3dfrags.com
SaraP said:
Wrong. In the hacker case, the FBI had evidence that the guy's computers were involved, sufficient evidence to get a search warrant.
Sara, you have no idea what you're talkin about. The FBI "visited" most of the members of the Hungry Programmers group. I don't think they specific evidences on this guy.
 

SaraP

New Member
Feb 12, 2002
935
0
0
The Land of the Governator
Freon said:
Sara, you have no idea what you're talkin about. The FBI "visited" most of the members of the Hungry Programmers group. I don't think they specific evidences on this guy.

They talked to most of the Hungry Programmers, but they only seized the one guy's computers - the one they had proper search warrants for.
 

JaFO

bugs are features too ...
Nov 5, 2000
8,408
0
0
Which would be like 'visiting' your house because you happened to have lived with friends which owned an illegal gun and so you might have one at home as well.

Strange how everything is 'bad' when it comes to guns, but it's all nice and dandy if it's a possible friend of a suspected hacker.

They didn't risk doing a double check with the hacker-case, so why risk delaying an arrest of a possible criminal which has a weapon (that even though it's legal) could be used to kill someone ?
Too bad that in reality neither actually offered any real threat to the security, but hey ... we all know that hackers are evil and deserve to be exterminated, eh ?
 

SaraP

New Member
Feb 12, 2002
935
0
0
The Land of the Governator
A_Rimmerlister said:
Which would be like 'visiting' your house because you happened to have lived with friends which owned an illegal gun and so you might have one at home as well.

Strange how everything is 'bad' when it comes to guns, but it's all nice and dandy if it's a possible friend of a suspected hacker.

There's a difference between interviewing potential suspects and confiscating things with no search warrant.


The DOJ's actions would be analogous to an agent who's involved on a bust of a black-market store which is selling pirated DVDs to notice a rack of Sony DVD burner drives that the store happens to be selling as part of its legitimate operations. This agent, for whatever reason, gets the idea that it's illegal for people to own DVD burners, and without checking with the DOJ's legal department to see if his hunch is right, forces the store to hand over its sales records. Two days later, DOJ agents come pounding on your door in the middle of the night. When you open the door, they inform you that your DVD-RW drive is illegal contraband, and they're going to arrest you unless you hand it over to them immediately.

The agent should have checked with the DOJ's legal department before initiating confiscation, since the law is unclear and the agent does not have the authority to decide what is and isn't illegal in the first place. Furthermore, it is against the law for the government to seize anything you have legally purchased without offering you fair compensation for it -- they can force you to hand it over against your will, but they cannot just take it. Nor can they arrest you for owning it; since you purchased it legitimately, you are legally innocent of any wrongdoing. If you refuse to hand it over, they cannot do anything except come back with a warrant for its seizure, at which point refusing to hand it over would be illegal. They still have to pay for it though -- the only time they don't have to pay is if it's evidence in a criminal lawsuit, and in that case they would have to return it once the suit is over.

That is why a number of military weapons which should be illegal for civilians to own are in civilian hands; the government demilitarized them improperly so they were legitimately purchased from the DOD's own surplus program, and the feds don't want the embarrasment of ponying up the money to buy them back at fair market values (which is in some cases very substantial; the items include several dozen fully armed older-model AH-1 Cobra attack helicopters, which are worth millions) .
 
Last edited:
constitution.jpg