Why do some people hate RA?

[Keganator]

*knucklecrack* Ah...time to wonder about why people hate RA. This thread is in response to another person's posting that people think RA sux and they'd leave INF if it turned more like RA.

Why, really? I'm asking a serious question, and I hope to get a serious response from people who don't like it. If you're here to say "RA = gei" or "i RoxorZ j0" please don't bother posting. I'm really interested why people who want to play a realistic shooter (theoretically) don't want to go to the extreme of realism, like INF's goal is.

So, why do they hate it? Camping? People don't 'camp' in RA, not in the traditional sense (and not the 'regulars' anyway). They strategically position themselves, laying down cover so their teammates can advance. The advancers then take their next position, while the guys behind come forward. Basic leapfrogging tactics, and they are very effective for approaching the enemy. RA just helps make that happen.

Do they hate the speed? Well, that's tough noogies, since the infiltration player can run, strait from the code, 400 UU's a second. Strait from the code, again, 16 UU's equal 1 foot...so the INF player can sprint about 25 ft/sec. Try it...I bet you can't maintain that all the way around a distance like EP's loop, carrying a 60 lb backpack. It's not realistic!

Do they not like the ability to sprint with their gun aimed, or if they have a scope, jog with it aimed? Well, sprinting is meant as a means to an ends, not as the end-all tactic like it is in plain vanilla Infiltration. In RA, you learn to hoard your stamina like life itself...since it is your life. You use it to quickly advance to your next position (like irl) and quickly retreat.

Do they hate the stamina differences? Like I said before, try sprinting at speeds that would make people think you were injecting ground poprocks, for a period of time as long as you can in Infiltration. It's just not realistic.

Do they hate the changes in sprinting direction? RA makes the sidestep + sprint only 22 degrees instead of 45. I personally would like to see anyone sprint at 45 degree angle to where they are looking and firing a gun that they have to their eye for more than 2 minutes over open ground. If anyone has video of this to prove me wrong, please post it or mail it to me...cause I want to laugh as the trip over themselves.

Do they hate the scope sensitivity? Makes me wonder if they've ever tried firing a real rifle. holding a rifle pefectly still is NOT easy. Especially a 12.5 kg rifle (the Robar). The only rifles I've fired are 22's and a really old black powder rifle (very, very fun) and it's not easy firing from a standing postiton. That's all RA is trying to do. If they bother to crouch and take a few seconds more, they'll realize it's a bit easier to place your shots, since recoil is reduced. If they want to snipe, they need to get down, either crouching or *gasp* proning, like IRL. You can steady yourself pretty good at those levels.

The other big reason for scope sensitivity in the manner that RA handles it is there are no ballistics to speak of. Yep, the moment you press that button, the bullet is fired and arrives at the target. This enhancement just makes it a bit more of a chalenge for those who use scopes, and makes using a scope actually *gasp* have a downside.

Last scope change that yurch did is fixing a bug: if you zoomed in with the Robar, it got easier to aim. In reality, it should be exactly opposite, and yurch fixed it.



The team doesn't plan on adding all of these things; if you read up on the posts that team members have made, you'll see that:

* Sprinting will now only be allowed in the forward direction (and 45 degrees to each side, when strafing ... IMO)
* The scope sensitivity thing (the last point I made about the robar) is fixed.

They have said it will be more like it, but not exactly like it, not until they can work out issues like the griding effect.

Some might say that RA hurts the player at the expense of reality, but I say that if we are playing a game dedicated to reality, how can reality hurt us? It only makes us have to use the most powerful weapon in our armory : no, not the AKMSU, but our brains. A well thought out game that took *gasp* 5 minutes is a much better experience than a match that lasts 30 seconds. (...which leads me to another point about the number of rounds on servers...but that debate is for another time and thread.)

So, coming from the view of a realism player who really, really wants to play realistically, RA is the way to go. Then again, how many people (serious question, not trying to make judgements) who are bitching about RA have actually played RA? Just like the people who havn't read Harry Potter because 'it's a kids book' or don't go and see "Final Fantasy" cause 'it's a movie based off of a game', you shouldn't judge a book by it's cover, or what a few poeple are screaming about. Try it for yourself, and then make a decision. You are always the best judge when it comes to things you like.

 

[BrownyMan]

WellÉ

Keganator, I'm glad you bring this up, and I'm very glad you approach it in a serious way. It is something that needs to be discussed, at the very least within the community, and again in a mature and objective way.

So let me get down to business, first you need to know that I'm one of those people who would be very upset if the current RA became intergral with Infiltration. The biggest thing behind this is I feel, that RA attempts to do the right thing but doesn't nessicarly do it in the right way.

I applaud several things in it as well as feel several aspects are annoying and invald, so I divide my opinions into three catergorys: The features that should become more intergral to Infiltration, the parts that could become parts of Infiltration with fine tuning and revision and the aspects that I feel have no merit or take away from the fun of things

So first we haveÉ:

The Good:

First I competely agree and with the fact that no gun should be aimed at the shoulder when your running full tilt forward. It just doesn't make sense that you should be able to do that with all that weight of a gun swinging back and forth, so I appauled Yurch for that. What I would recommend for it is a two select system however, what I mean is present it with two different options, these are:
1.) (The current and only one) If you are aiming your gun from the shoulder and you try to sprint you can't and your gun stays aimed.
2.) If you are aimed and try to sprint, you sprint but your gun drops down to unaimed.
This could be part of a menu somewhere that a cilent on a server could choose Independant from the server.
Next on the list is decreased back pedal and side step speed. I don't think this needs explaining. Everyone knows you can't run to the side as fast as you can run forward and even less for that matter backwards. So that's it for great features of RA!! Again I appluad Yurch for those and I'm fairly sure the Infiltration team would have implemented those features without Yurch's intervention.

The "Needs improvement":
As far as feature of RA that with some improvement, I feel, could make their way into Infiltration on a regular basis are: Spriniting speed and Stamina Depletion. The first Sprinting speed is done fairly well it isn't dreased much but I feel the system between Stamina depletion and speed are off balance I agree they should be lowered considerable from the Original release of Infitration but not to the degree set in RA. So just increasing the speed a tiny tiny bit, and dropping the rate of stamina degeneration would all those features need to be better in my mind and opinion.

The "I don't really like":
Well what do I flat out dislike in RA? The biggest stink I have is Scope sensitivity. But indeed it isn't just with scopes it's with every weapon. What I think happened in the Mutator is the sensitivity of a Scoped rifle when looking down the scope would be the same as if it was unaimed. Hense. it takes the same exact time to turn 90¡ in scoped mode as unaimed mode. This is just too touchy. Granted it helps add a bit to realism but I feel it takes away too much for the fun of Infiltration. It's one of those cases of: "Too real, not enough fun" The solution to that problem in the current RA mutator is too neal or go prone. The problem is that this decreases sensitity with ALL weapons regradless of whether or not they have scopes to begin with. Meaning I can no longer turn as fast with an MP5 even when it's unaimed and I'm crouching or prone. It takes away the ability for a person to modify their own mouse sensitivity which is something that shouldn't be taken away from the player. Certain people have certain ways of playing a First Person Shooter and how sensitive of insensitive their mouse is plays a big part in that. I just think taking that "normalized" freedom away from the player really hampers the Infiltration experience for quiet a few players. I currently feel that the breathing system itself was sufficently real in Infiltration, it could be modified with a bit of tweeking here or there but I feel, it is fine in it's current manifestation

But in any case that what I Love, Like andÉdislike about RA. I really hope this helps shead some light into RA's controversial popularity.

 

[striderteen]

I would favor the inclusion of ALL RealAim features into Infiltration.

The problem is that this decreases sensitity with ALL weapons regradless. Meaning I can no longer turn as fast with an MP5 even when it's unaimed and I'm crouching or prone.

I don't consider that to be a problem. In real life, you can't turn as fast in crouch and prone positions, no matter what gun you're carrying.

It takes away the ability for a person to modify their own mouse sensitivity which is something that shouldn't be taken away from the player. Certain people have certain ways of playing a game and how sensitive of insensitive their mouse is plays a big part in that.

How so? You can still adjust your mouse sensitivity, all RealAim does is take away the free (unrealistic) mouse sensitivity reduction for a scoped weapon.

If you mean a sniper has to lower his mouse sensitivity to snipe properly, that's a good thing...it reduces the ability of the walking arsenal folks to do everything, without really impeding people who are playing properly.

 

[BrownyMan]

WellÉ

The biggest problem with the scope sensitity issue is it detracts too much from fun while emphasing too much realism into a game. And to quote Warren in the f.a.q

Although, certain elements of reality can become a burden to the player, we only choose those aspects of realism that will add to the experience without detracting from game play.

The current Infiltation scope mode of aiming is what the team envisioned as adding realism without detracting from the gameplay, which I and many other players feel it does.

AndÉ

We also pay close attention as to how those features are implemented. The complexity of the game is kept to a minimum so that anyone can learn to play and enjoy Infiltration.

The way RA implements sniping only refurther complicates the rules that the team envisioned to keep Infiltration enjoyable and easy to learn. They implemented scopes the way they did because it makes things enjoyable, not frustrating.

 

[BrownyMan]

Again, I want to reiterate, I feel RA can add quite a few things that add better levels of realism and at the same time do not detract from gameplay and enjoyablity.

The scope issue, however, crosses that fine line between those worlds. Those of Enjoyablity and Reality.

 

[Sidewinder]

i dont see why going prone , which ur most likely to do with a 25lb (correct me if that weight is wrong) long rifle in rl, is so hard to do.
seems it would come second nature...

 

[striderteen]

Actually, I don't think you CAN fire a .50 BMG rifle from any position other than prone. Not with any semblance of accuracy, anyway.

 

[BrownyMan]

i dont see why going prone , which ur most likely to do with a 25lb (correct me if that weight is wrong) long rifle in rl, is so hard to do.
seems it would come second nature...

Actually, I don't think you CAN fire a .50 BMG rifle from any position other than prone. Not with any semblance of accuracy, anyway.

"Although, certain elements of reality can become a burden to the player, we only choose those aspects of realism that will add to the experience without detracting from game play."

It seems to the team needing to go prone in order to be effective while sniping detracts from gameplayÉ

 

[Keganator]

I can say that your first problem, the sprinting thing, is fixed in RAv2...its just that Yurch isn't comfortable saying it's "ready". However, a little birdie told me that yurch is close to calling RAv2 server ready...

Although I like the way the scope is handled in RA, it's true that it has some issues...the gridding effect. This is a UT engine and hardware problem, and there is no simple way around it. However, I think it's still import that scopes be more realistically implemented...you cannot do IRL what you can do in INF...the current sitaution makes scopes just a zoom function, and none of the drawbacks that using a scope should entail. I guess I can accept that slight bit of gridding while standing up, since you shouldn't be sniping standing up anyway.

 

[NNY]

harry potter

dude i saw that ****, its ****ing stupid. and i, as well as many others, gave up on reading a long time ago.

 

[BrownyMan]

dude i saw that ****, its ****ing stupid. and i, as well as many others, gave up on reading a long time ago.

UmmmmmmmmmmmmÉokay

 

[deeznuts]

dude i saw that ****, its ****ing stupid. and i, as well as many others, gave up on reading a long time ago

NNY, you've just showed me that you have the brains and the ability to reply to a topic correctly. I think you should just skip college and go straight to Grad school.

I actually like RA when I am playing INF. What really bugged me about playing 2.86 was people running around solo trying to be Rambo. There is no "I" in team. (but there is a "me") I feel RA makes everyone play as a team.

 

[JamesT]

If yurch is willing to implement my "concentration" suggestion into RA, the grid effect can be reduced to almost none.

Basically the mouse sensitivity part of RA is trying to represent that you should have the same turn-rate ( angular velocity ) no matter you have a scoped weapon or not. However, as we know, the act of "turning" in FPS games is in fact "turning the whole body." In real life when a shooter is managing to make an accurate aiming and shot, he/she doesn't have to turn his/her whole body. When concentrated in aiming, one can use his/her hands to make very minute adjustments. I once suggested yurch consider adding this concept into RA -- if a player is "holding breathe" with alt-fire button, RA decreases the mouse sensitivity.

You might remember that I have also mentioned about the different time-span of concentration for different positions if you have taken part in the early discussion stage of RA.

To summarize my suggestion:

- time-span -
The time it takes to be fully concentrated = 3 seconds
The time you can be concentrated when standing = 3 seconds
The time you can be concentrated when crouching = 10 seconds
The time you can be concentrated when prone = 20 seconds

- turn-rate ( mouse sensitivity ) -
standing >
crouching = ( standing + concentrate ) >
prone = ( crouching + concentrate ) >
( prone + concentrate )

 

[jlamb_vo]

I love the effect RA has on sniping. The gridding effect is damn annoying, I hear its not an issue with optical input its just related to mouse resolution (input related not software related at all, which is why EVERY game probably reduceses scope sensitivity too), but i personally find sniping much more rewarding with RA (and honestly I think it is still far too easy).

I don't know who would disagree with me that sharpshooting is an art, and a skill. It shouldn't be easy IMO, in fact should be much harder. A scope does NOT help you hit anything itself per se. If you can see a target with open sights and can't hit it with iron sights, using a scope is not going to help you any except see what you are missing more easily.

In vanilla infiltration, scopes do not magnify the image reaching your eye. It seems to send a ghost of yourself within 10 feet of them where you can carefully place your crosshair on them and pop off shots while they can't even see you. It basically turns them into 200 foot tall balloons in a shooting gallery. If you miss you deserve to shoot yourself, because thats about the only way you COULD miss

Have you ever looked through a pair of binoculars? How about ones that weigh over 20lbs?! Try walking with them, slowly gaining speed up to 17mph. With a 90lb backpack on. Then throw some frags in and a couple SMGs and a Desert Eagle stuck in the crotch of your pants.

Anyway, I don't know just my opinion, but even with the gridding effect (which I thought was just related to mouse resolution, ie opticals don't have such a problem?) I find sniping with RA much more rewarding like I said. When I spot that 10pixel tall target moving down that dark path, carefully steady my crosshair, hold my breath, lean into his movement, let up my breath and squeeze off that headshot as the crosshair lines up right in front of his head, it gives me a good feeling. I feel good that I have harassed and confused the enemy, or uprooted a position where another individual could not. I do not sprint-sidestep around corners and shoot wildly at hostiles a block away with a PSG.

But hey, I've never even fired a full calibre weapon in real life. I dressed up in some camo before tho... But anyway, when I snipe with RA, I at least feel more like any sniper I've seen in a movie

 

[jlamb_vo]

And, I'm sorry, I must add that when I first played RA, on Kosovo, I was just getting used to the new sniping... I was scanning the enemy houses with a robar when I spotted a guy turn on me at the same time. And I can easily say that one of the funnest and most intense times I've had in a long time was the two of us, for what seemed like an eternity, trying to level off a clean shot at each other until it ended in one clap from a Robar. I don't even CARE who it was that survived that anymore.

Okay, it was me. Beginners luck

Anyway, hey now we can actually be proud of a good running snipe, eh?

For your sake its a good thing you don't have to SIGHT the weapons in INF.

I doubt many ranges in INF would actually need sighting tho.

Any word on that? (Uh, unless to avoid digression

 

[jlamb_vo]

Whoah another post appeared.

The concentration idea sounds OKAY to me, although this kind of thing is basically accomplished by the player normal, as the view is simply moved with smaller movements (and actually letting your breath up and waiting for the crosshair to lower onto the target is a possible and valid [according to my pop] step in sharpshooting?).

But, just a little amendment to that idea if it is considered, that concentration should be lost of course with too sweeping a movement... a jerk of the mouse should bring the player our of 'concentration' mode.

 

[BrownCow]

MY TURN

This will be tricky. Well, i don't HATE RA. I'm no ra expert, i don't play very often, and here is why!

Speed
RA works fine on small maps like Siberia.. It doesn't work on large maps like Island because on large maps you need more people to cover the larger area, more people then INF can handle. With the stamina how it is in RA you cannot compensate for the lack of players, therefor games last a long time because people are trying to find eachother. Not fun at all for me. Games are 4x the length then they should be. INF's speed lets you compensate for the lack of players because you can cover more ground.

Camping/Rushing
RA makes people either walk or jog basically. This is prob the worst part for me because i do not play inf to wipe out newbies who aim slow. I want a challange. If there is no challange then i do not play. A player who is walking or jogging is a sitting duck. If i'm playing Siberia, for example, and if i'm on blue i get to that main room as fast as i can, and i sit in the open and cover the ramp and large stairs. On an RA server, 9 times out of 10 i will fortify that position because you really have no chance, you are too slow, way to easy to hit. I see you before you see me, and on top of that, you are moving slow. SO i have all the time in the world to take aim and put you down. On a normal server maybe 2 times out of 10 i'll fortify that position because people will run full boar and get a shot off and it might get me. That is fun because if i can take them out before they get a shot off then i'm doing really good. Keeps my reflexes up to par! And I can carry as much equipment that i can purchase at the loadout menu and it makes no difference. When you factor in the camping effectivness that i mentioned above you find that there are no drawbacks to carrying as much as you can.

Challange/Fun
Ok, now you probably thinking, well on RA the above situation is way more effective, what is the problem?? That is the problem. What is the fun in that? It isn't a challange to fortify a position in RA. The game is too slow. Everyone is too easy to hit. I've said before that i'd rather play against a cs n00b then an inf newbie. The cs n00b will at least make me think. An INF newbie has the reaction time of a turtle and the aim of an old man with 1 arm. What is the point!?! RA just adds to that. It even takes away from the cs n00b because now they can't jump around like fools or run forever. Making them just as easy to kill as inf newbies.


Yes i know there are good players who would offer a challange in an RA atmosphere, but that is about 10% of the inf players.. If that... And if it would be that rare to get a good game then it just wouldn't be worth the time looking for the players. So if inf turned into RA, and i've heard a rumor it actually is, then i won't be able to play because it will be even less fun then it is now for me. Sure, it is neat to go onto a sob server or whatever and blast away newbies for a little bit, but it gets old fast.

And my style of play isn't even run and gun. All i do is rush to an area and secure it, then aggressivly advance. And I just can't do that in ra. Maps are too big and players are too few. I'm not saying i'm an inf god, but i'm certinly better then a majority of the players and slowing down the game just hinders them more and makes me better. And that is pretty much why i wouldn't play inf if it was ra copied and pasted. And i THINK GAT prob agrees with me on what i said. Don't quote me on that though!

It is 3:30 and i'm tired and i could have prob explained this better, but i'll live

 

[[DiE]x8668k]

I think the biggest problem is that in EU on all the servers I play on, only one have it, meaning, most times I play without RA, meaning, when I do go to the RA server, I'm not used to it.
If all servers would have it, we all would get used to it.

I have played alot on that RA server before, but I haven't done that in a while now, so when I joined that server yesterday, everything felt wrong, just becouse I'm not used to it.

 

[rgreene]

Here's what I don't like about RA: it's a mutator. I think that the goals of making the game more realistic are good ones, however making a mutator is not the proper way to acheive this. Infiltration needs to be a single, uniform entity, with one set of rules. This means that 3rd party mutators are not acceptable, rather presure should be put on the team (which it has been, and supposedly 2.87 will help address this... and make RA obsolte?). Now, here's what I do like about RA. It makes the game alot more like what INF ought to be. While it is a mutator, it does help illustrate the concerns of the community to the team, and provide an effective form of lobying for change.


What it all boils down to is this: we all have a vision for what INF ought to play like, and one way or another whenever this thing is "finished" some (most) of us will see a diffrent game than we envisioned. But, we have to support the game that the INF team creates, and as such things like RA should most certainly NOT be permanent solutions or changes in how the gameplay should flow.

 

[LieLestoSbrat]

I like the effect that RA has on INF, and iv'e only just start using RA a few days ago. The scope sensitvity im not sure is 100% accurate but I do feel that its closer to RL. The reason I feel this is because I used to have a Air rifle with a Scope, and I do realise that its a bit of a daft comparision to a Robar. But When I looked through the scope althought it had a slight zoom on it, it was hard to keep the gun steady and on target because you see less of the target area. I hope you know what I mean by this and anyone who has used a military firearm with scope should understand what I mean. Another thing I tryed was running with an Air rifle while aiming, and it was impossible (im no soldier either so proper soldier might find it easier to aim). Proning when going to snipe I have never tryed that with my Air Rifle but I have a good feeling that it would make it easier to aim. I also Go prone whe naiming with the sniper on OFP (I do realise that is totaly diffrent to Inf but it the best comparison I can think of). The final reason why I like to play Inf now with RA is because it makes Inf in my view more realistic and just more fun.