1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.
  2. Two Factor Authentication is now available on BeyondUnreal Forums. To configure it, visit your Profile and look for the "Two Step Verification" option on the left side. We can send codes via email (may be slower) or you can set up any TOTP Authenticator app on your phone (Authy, Google Authenticator, etc) to deliver codes. It is highly recommended that you configure this to keep your account safe.

What if Jesus was gay?

Discussion in 'Off Topic' started by Luv_Studd, Aug 5, 2012.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. N1ghtmare

    N1ghtmare Sweet Dreams

    Joined:
    Jul 17, 2005
    Messages:
    2,411
    Likes Received:
    12
    How is marriage about procreation? Nowhere when getting married do you promise to procreate. You promise to be with that person forever and to love them, whether you procreate or not.

    I personally do not plan to get married for the purpose of procreating. If I get married, its because I love that person. If I have kids, kewl, if I do not, no biggie. To me children has nothing to do with the act of getting married. Do I think kids are better off with stable mother + father relationship? Of course. But society allows people to have kids without being married, and for kids to be raised by one parent. Marriage has nothing to do with it.

    But in a way you are equating them, as if being Gay or having Gay marriage causes society some harm. Does it?

    Economically, no. More people married = more couples compiling their wealth and buying shit to live better. In fact, it helps the economy. Why else would married couples get tax benefits? Because the state wants people to be married because it gets them to spend money and turn the economy.

    What else does gay marriage do to hurt society? Does it somehow teach kids to become more/less gay? No, this is not even physically or biologically possible. You are born destined to become straight or not. Even studies on separated identical twins show that many of them ended up in the same occupation and married people with the same name. Guess what? You are hardwired from birth to love certain people, male or female. That cannot be changed, whether you learn that so called 'gay' people exist or not. Teaching your kids about gay people will not make them gay. So no, this does not 'harm' society either [this is assuming that being gay is a problem in the first place, which it is not].

    Would kids raised under gays be worse off than kids raised by man+woman? Studies show no real difference by adopted children under gay parents, and we allow in society kids to be raised by single parents, so this cannot be a harm either.

    So what are you getting at? How exactly does gay marriage itself, by itself, harm society? If you want to claim it is a slippery slope to other things, then there must be something wrong with the core principle of the issue (ex: being against wire tapping out of principle that it can lead to other forms of spying [not to spark a debate here but trying to clarify what I mean by principle]). So what do you feel is wrong with the principle of gay marriage?
     
    Last edited: Aug 11, 2012
  2. Jacks:Revenge

    Jacks:Revenge ╠╣E╚╚O

    Joined:
    Jun 18, 2006
    Messages:
    10,037
    Likes Received:
    186
    but it's not.

    only in your eyes (and people like you) are there issues and contradictions.
    to normal people, gay marriage is as simple as straight marriage.

    you're doing it again.
    this false equivalency bullshit. I don't know why you're so hung up on it.

    homosexuality - as an anomaly of the brain - is not the least bit comparable to legitimate psychopathology. someone who is prone to murder or rape is seriously sick. yes, they might also have just been born that way, but their choice behavior actually causes others harm and injury.

    homosexuals were born that way, but their behavior does not actually cause harm or injury to other people.

    you're digging yourself a hole out of which you won't be able to climb... at least not with any dignity left.

    your "analogous argument" is not strong.
    homosexuality does compare with murder on any level whatsoever. your argument is petty and weak.

    homosexuality is not "extremely anti-social behavior."
    that's just plain stupid. you're doubling-down on ignorance.

    you're doing it again.
    false equivalency bullshit.

    the reason you take your developmentally challenged child to a doctor is because we already know that medicine and therapy can help improve the condition. we also know that it won't fundamentally destroy the person's self-esteem and cause them to live a life full of lies and confusion and agony.

    there's nothing to "improve" in homosexuals.
    it's not a "condition" that can be treated. we already know that when you force homosexuals into this type of therapy it virtually NEVER changes them and it definitely causes great mental anguish and confusion that can haunt them for their entire lives.

    homosexuals who have been forced into these pseudo-scientific "turn straight" programs committ suicide at much, MUCH higher rates than anyone else who has ever had to undergo mental behavioral therapy.

    that's fine and all, but I'm sorry; I do think less of people like you.
    you're on the wrong side of reality. you're going to be on the wrong side of history. and I feel sorry that your children may have to grow up listening to your warped ideas and adopting your bigotry.

    homosexuals are just people who deserve their pursuit of happiness.
    their behavior causes no one any harm and doesn't threaten the fabric of society.

    I suggest you listen to this.

    [m]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yMLZO-sObzQ[/m]
     
  3. gopostal

    gopostal Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 19, 2006
    Messages:
    822
    Likes Received:
    45
    I watched that Jacks and it just made me...sad, I guess. This Zach kid obviously feels kinship with his sister because they are both "from the same anonymous donor". I'm to believe that he feels comfort to have true familial kinship with a sister, but he's perfectly fine with not knowing his (their) Father and having that same relationship? No way. Pick a better demonstration video because this one only confirms how I feel.

    You said
    Self-esteem has nothing to do with this. You said gays were born this way and I should respect that. If my child is born challenged then why is it different to change that? Oh, I get it. Because you WANT that, and so we circle back to that precept once again. Nature means for them to be one way but you elect to alter things to suit how you think they should be.

    Now I do not disagree with trying to improve a challenged kid's situation but I think it's important to call it what it is. You have an idea how you want the child to be and you are moving it forward towards that ideal. If you didn't want that, it likely wouldn't happen and the child would suffer for it, though he would remain true to his natural state.

    @N1ghtmare
    I don't dislike someone for sexual preference and in fact I'm pretty liberally bent. I live on the west coast in a VERY liberal 'artsy' area with a lot of alternative lifestyle families. This isn't a personal axe I'm trying to grind, it's a defense of my feelings about the matter only. I didn't intend for this to become all versus me (what happened to TWD? I thought you guys liked apologetics?:lol:) but that's fine. I'm just sorry I can't respond to everyone. Any are free to email me and I'd even meet you on TS or land-line to discuss further one-on-one.

    Let me put it like this N1ghtmare...I'm married. Got a great wife, she teaches school. For all intents it's a normal nuclear family. Now, does my biology tell me that other women are attractive? Sure does. But is it logical for me to run around on my wife? Never mind right vs. wrong, I'm just hitting on the logic of it. It would be a terribly illogical decision to get a girlfriend. I stand to lose too much. So it's correct to say that even with emotion and morality removed it's still not OK to cheat on my wife.

    Now apply those same rules to same sex marriage. It's morally wrong, the vast majority of society past and present would attest to that. Only in the last generation has society begun to tolerate it and this is mostly due to vigorous pro-gay attacks like Chik Fil A is currently enduring.

    Is it logical? No, it's not. It's not the natural order of things. It does happen in nature, sure, but is this considered deviation-from-a-norm or aberrant? I think that's pretty obvious. Nature demands a male and a female to create offspring. Tweak all you want with medical procedure but stripped to it's core it's still nature's way. That's because it's logical.

    BTW, there is a growing backlash in the thought that kids of same-sex parents are as fine as everyone thought:
    http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-504763_...orse-study-finds-but-draws-fire-from-experts/
    http://healthland.time.com/2012/06/11/do-children-of-same-sex-parents-really-fare-worse/
    From the article:
    This is two reviews of the same study (I'm currently reading the study in-depth now) and I have some concerns but I think it stands as a good first look.
     
    Last edited: Aug 11, 2012
  4. Vaskadar

    Vaskadar It's time I look back from outer space

    Joined:
    Feb 12, 2008
    Messages:
    2,660
    Likes Received:
    42
    The above statement is false. Whip-tail lizards are all female. There are hermaphroditic species too, such as the tripod fish. Let's not forget the asexual microorganisms and worms. Plants are self-reproducing. Hammerhead sharks and black-tip sharks also do not require a male to reproduce. Numerous species of insect can reproduce without fertilization, various reptiles, fish, and even a few species of bird reproduce via parthenogenesis. So no, nature does not demand a male and female as requisites to create offspring. Your wife is a biology teacher. You can ask her about this.

    So what really irks you about homosexuality anyhow? I personally don't give a damn what they do, but I find it hard to grasp intolerance. Intolerance itself is a source of conflict.
     
    Last edited: Aug 11, 2012
  5. cryptophreak

    cryptophreak unbalanced

    Joined:
    Jul 2, 2011
    Messages:
    1,002
    Likes Received:
    60
    We also can't guarantee that homosexuals won't fuck donkeys. Weak argument is weak. Which makes this all the more horrifying:

    I'm still pretty sure the real reason you want incest to remain banned is because you think it's gross. Which is healthy, but not conducive to the furtherance of tolerance.

    You can redefine it and that has already happened. Read the bible and discover that marriage now is nothing like it used to be.

    Bonus tip: Not all people with autism spectrum disorders need to be made 'better'.
     
  6. Bi()ha2arD

    Bi()ha2arD Toxic!

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2009
    Messages:
    2,810
    Likes Received:
    0
    On top of that, a whole bunch of animals are homosexual. Monkeys have gay sex all the time to relieve social tensions and stress.
    Giraffes are gay. Lions are gay. Dolphins are gay. Tons more are gay. Nature is gay. Deal with it.
     
  7. gopostal

    gopostal Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 19, 2006
    Messages:
    822
    Likes Received:
    45
    Irks is not the right word. It's like saying that whatever opposing view you have on capital punishment 'irks' you. It's more a defense of a position that you have and that's what I've been striving to do here. Someone's personal choice is not my business, I do respect your rights to live as you want but that does not preclude me from liking it or thinking it is immoral and illogical.

    You guys think it's a path where I sit on the moral high ground and just denounce everyone else as 'lost'? Ask any true Christian what it's really like to accept the fact that the Law damns me every day and that no work I will ever do can change that. I see it as aside from Forgiveness there is no hope at all. It's easy to sit in your chair, dismiss Faith as silly, and move on with your life. I chose to deeply explore myself and my beliefs and came out the other side with answers I have looked for all my life. Take care before you dismiss my views that you understand the impact it has on my life and the profound weight you bear by accepting Christianity. It's certainly not easy, but it's not supposed to be.

    Anyway, back to where we were.
    There's also lots of unneeded violence/killing, rape, and cannibalism. Lions eat their young, the list goes on and on. Shall we also apply those since they happen with equal frequency?
    According to geneticist Simon Levay (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simon_LeVay )
    He's done years of research on this. And he's openly gay.

    Now for a more personal turn.
    A few people who are long time members (and friends of mine) in the unreal community know this. I was diagnosed with Asperger's but it should come as no surprise to most. I've often been labeled the outcast and I've had many issues with multiple people in the community (see my sig). Most everything though has been my fault and I've quietly tried to make amends for the pain I caused. Getting the diagnosis was both devastating and freeing. It told me why I did things the way that I did but better yet how to improve myself socially. It's not easy but no way could I have dealt with this on my own and turning my life over has been the best decision I've ever made.
    Anyway the point is I have reference in what has been discussed. I know first hand what it feels like to be 'broken'. It sucks dude, but you work with what you have.

    Lastly
    You are changing the nature of my argument for me. I never said I'm intolerant, nor did I assert that anything should happen to gays or that they be treated any differently than anyone else. They have no less rights because they live an alternative lifestyle. I only said I disagree with it and here are the reasons why. Pro gay seems to always try to paint Christians as intolerant because it's hard to defend. Show me where I've been intolerant.

    Adjective: Not tolerant of others' views, beliefs, or behavior that differ from one's own.

    To the contrary, I WANT to hear your views and I WANT you to convince me I'm wrong.
     
  8. N1ghtmare

    N1ghtmare Sweet Dreams

    Joined:
    Jul 17, 2005
    Messages:
    2,411
    Likes Received:
    12
    The moral issue you proposed is cheating on your wife, which is considered morally wrong. But this does not mean that being in a gay relationship is cheating. Two gay people may be perfectly loyal to each other. Two gay people may not be loyal, and sleep around and that is considered morally wrong. but whether you cheat on your partner has nothing to do with whether you are gay or not.

    But again, what else do you propose if "it is not the natural order of things"? Should we not allow them to marry for this reason alone? What will they do with themselves? They are not attracted to the opposite sex, and if they do get themselves into a heterosexual relationship it will be based upon lies and ultimately not fair to either side, as true love will not exist. Do we let them hang around and not marry anyone, wallowing in their misery for having been born gay? Nature demands children being born in the sense that evolution demands that only the fit species will bear children for the continuation of the species. Yet there is no historical evidence that shows that this has been a problem in the past, nor is there any evidence that the continuation of the human race is in jeopardy if the 5-10% of people who are gay do not bother reproducing.

    As for children on gay couples:

    http://www.ca9.uscourts.gov/datastore/general/2010/10/27/amicus29.pdf
    See section IV. This document is the amicus brief given to the California courts over the proposition 8 case a few years back.

    http://www.cpa.ca/cpasite/userfiles...les Position Statement - October 2006 (1).pdf
    The Canadian psychological association agrees as well.
     
  9. Firefly

    Firefly United Kingdom is not a country.

    Joined:
    Feb 20, 2000
    Messages:
    4,853
    Likes Received:
    0
    To be disloyal is to cheat.
    It has nothing to do with sexuality.
     
  10. Capt.Toilet

    Capt.Toilet Good news everyone!

    Joined:
    Feb 16, 2004
    Messages:
    5,832
    Likes Received:
    2
    [M]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hWiBt-pqp0E&feature=related[/M]
     
  11. gopostal

    gopostal Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 19, 2006
    Messages:
    822
    Likes Received:
    45
    I didn't say that. I asserted that cheating on my wife would be illogical, and here's why. Then I said that I felt homosexuality was illogical and here's why. They are independent of each other and only share being not logical (in my eyes). Although the facet of sexual practice in same-sex couples has some fascinating studies done I felt it would be too inflammatory to include into this discussion and I purposely avoided it.
    Couldn't have said it better. That's what I was getting at.

    Nothing. I'm not the arbiter of right and wrong for you, only for me. Like I said I don't condemn anyone. This discussion was only whether someone was correct in the "pro" position. I will say though that many, many people live in bad marriages and cheat on their wives (between 25 and 72%, the figure varies wildly depending on the study). True love does not exist there but society tends to stay out of these too, leaving it to the couple to work out. Now the argument can be made that this has a downward effect on society with the high divorce rate and children with behavior problems but that's not really where we are plugging away. I think we would all agree that cheating on your spouse (gay or not) is immoral. That's the crux of the argument and nothing more: Is some behavior 'wrong', and if so then why?

    BTW there has been some interesting data collected in the guessing of the number of LGBT population. Most people guess way too high, though your figure seems pretty close:
    http://www.lehmiller.com/blog/2012/1/16/what-percentage-of-the-population-is-gay.html
    It jumped from around 2% to around 8% in two studies separated by 16 years. Anyway my point is it's nice to see accurate figures posted by a proponent. Usually this requires a page or two to work out for people but you have your facts straight.

    As for your studies, if I may I'd like to take a mulligan just for today. I promise you I'll open the links and read them by tonight and respond tomorrow. I've heard reports that the Japanese tsunami wreckage has started showing up so this afternoon we are going to hit the beach and see. There has already been a large dock show up:
    http://theworldlink.com/news/local/...age_aeb8f276-ef86-5f29-ac0f-94d5223e679c.html
     
  12. phil

    phil OH GOD

    Joined:
    Jan 3, 2000
    Messages:
    3,705
    Likes Received:
    0
    To no one in particular:

    If you can't understand why marriage between two adults is different than marriage between adults and children, animals, and/or inanimate objects (I'm looking at you BBA with your wifu pillow), you are an idiot who is ignoring reality and you are not worth arguing with. You are a regressive douche who will constantly find your arguments on this subject a unending retreat and grasp at straws as society progresses forward leaving you in the bronze age with your "morality" which is really just a nice way of prejudices. People like you always lose in a free and democratic society in the long term because your argument is based in uneducated bullshit, hate, and short sighted observation. I honestly don't understand why the rest of you pamper these people and entertain their thoughts that this is even a real debate and that they really have a chance to win. You should all be ashamed of yourself.
     
  13. Firefly

    Firefly United Kingdom is not a country.

    Joined:
    Feb 20, 2000
    Messages:
    4,853
    Likes Received:
    0
    Personal choice: as long as no one gets hurt then I can't see any problem.

    [M]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=POTA5aZxbQA[/M]
     
  14. Zur

    Zur surrealistic mad cow

    Joined:
    Jul 8, 2002
    Messages:
    11,717
    Likes Received:
    4
    You have it all wrong. Marriage is like the taxman. It's about introducing a third player into two-player relationship. Plus religion obviously doesn't like women being able to influence men, proof being how priests are almost all exclusively men. If women have it bad with islam it's for similar reasons.
     
  15. Hadmar

    Hadmar Queen Bitch of the Universe

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 2001
    Messages:
    5,437
    Likes Received:
    22
    Seems like you don't know that Incest happens in nature. Now you do.
     
  16. Vaskadar

    Vaskadar It's time I look back from outer space

    Joined:
    Feb 12, 2008
    Messages:
    2,660
    Likes Received:
    42
    From a genetic standpoint, incest is counter-productive to diversifying the gene-pool. That's my argument against allowing closely-related relatives to have kids. Same goes for parthenogenesis, though.

    Fun fact: Worms in proximity of Chernobyl's radiation turned from asexual to sexual reproduction due to the necessities of genetic diversification in a hostile environment.
     
  17. Jacks:Revenge

    Jacks:Revenge ╠╣E╚╚O

    Joined:
    Jun 18, 2006
    Messages:
    10,037
    Likes Received:
    186
    of course I know that incest occurs in nature.
    so does homosexuality.

    the difference is that homosexuality doesn't produce genetic corruption that leads to debilitating disorders.

    what??

    ok.
    you're a fucking idiot.
    this conversation is over.

    just remember where you were in 25 years.
    the wrong side of history. the wrong side of reality. gays are going to get married and there's nothing your ignorance can do to stop it.

    people like you just need to die off before this world and this species can move forward.

    you're acting like a moron now.
    I'm not going to address this Strawman crap.
     
  18. Tooly

    Tooly New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 26, 2009
    Messages:
    123
    Likes Received:
    0

    AMEN!!!
     
  19. cryptophreak

    cryptophreak unbalanced

    Joined:
    Jul 2, 2011
    Messages:
    1,002
    Likes Received:
    60
    Holy shit dude. Drink some cognac and listen to Louis Armstrong. Look at this woman and touch yourself.
     
  20. Firefly

    Firefly United Kingdom is not a country.

    Joined:
    Feb 20, 2000
    Messages:
    4,853
    Likes Received:
    0
    Jacks, other people's ignorance isn't worth losing your rag over. Stupid, narrow minded people will always be stupid and narrow minded.

    I work with a Muslim who hails from Kenya and they still believe that homosexuals choose to be gay. The same people also do not believe that evolution happens. For example the dinosaurs, "the scientists weren't there so how do they know?". Fossils apparently were planted by god.
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.

Share This Page