Weapons issues

[Logan6]

Got a problem with the scopes on the rifles. I've been practicing with them of late, and I hate to say it, but you can't hit **** with them. Especially at 500 meters which is medium range. Most good sniper rifles were meant to hit out at 800 to 1200 meters! Especially tac drivers like the PSG1. Its semi auto which causes some problems with aim, but not horrible like it is in game.
The PSG-1 was made for medium range, but I should get some dam good shots in at 800 meters. It should be doing great groups at 500 meters.

I can't find what the accuracy for the PSG-1 is, probably a little over 1/2 minute of angle. But the for the .50, the U.S. Military requirement is 2.6 minutes of angle, which is a 13 inch group at 600 meters. I am definitely not getting that in game. This isn't bad considering this rifle was made to get lucky shots out at 2000 meters. Surprise Commie!

I've also noticed this with most of the rifles. Especially the M16's. They just aren't accurate.

Second, the sniper scopes have no power. The PSG-1 scope should have more magnification (you can't even see people at 500 meters) and the RC50 should have 4x that amount.

Third, there is way too much wobble in the scopes and all weapons for that matter. I pulled out my Savage .250 the other day which has a 9X variable scope on it. I pulled it up to my shoulder while standing and after a second there was hardly any wobble. A little up and down if I was breathing hard, but on normal breath it barely moved from the target and definitely not constantly, for the most part being almost completely still. If I braced against something, it was completely still. What we have in game now is ridiculous. Its like someone is shaking the rifle with all their might as you are trying to fire.

Fourth, since the PSG-1 is semi-auto it should face forward as you are carrying it when you are walking or jogging just like you were carrying the M16. You may not be able to aim through the scope, but you've at least got a chance to get a round or two off.

In all the games I have played, I have noticed that no one uses the PSG-1, and few ever use the RC-50. Its a shame on such big open maps as we have. Give the snipers some good weapons so we can do our thing!

Could someone make a mutator to do this all? I would if I could but Im completely clueless on how to make mutators.

I think accuraccy has been discussed before ( and I wrongly said I thought things were ok at first ) but I wanted to put this all together into one thread.

 

[OpFor]

...Wow.

I think you're just a bad shot, and need to adjust your mouse sensitivity.

The reason it is so "hard" to use scopes is because A) People would use scopes all the freaking time if they were not so hard to use. It is still way to easy to hit targets on maps like RtK with the RC50 and such. Also, I wouldnt say we have a lot of large maps. The only map I can think of that scopes should only be viable on is Road to Kandahar.

 

[Logan6]

Actually, I'm a crack shot ( I'm from the Texas sticks ). I know your going for "game balance" but this isn't a game, its a sim. And it should be real. I have never seen a scope jitter near as much as in this sim. Man I would have to actually move my arms around to get that much jitter. Realistlically, you can never completely hold the scope still without a brace for more than a second or two, but the wobble represented is ridiculous. Secondly, you worry about snipers being good, but that realism. Snipers are good, especially when they are practiced. Thats life. Firefights generally go pretty quick. Thats why you have to develop good tactics against the snipers.
Hardly anybody in this game snipes because the weapons are so bad.

So for realisms sake, put some realistic scopes, movement, and accurracy into the weapons and let the sim take its course.

 

[jayhova]

Ummm.. I'm afraid I have to agree with him here. I find it far easier to play with open sights rather than scopes. To make INF realistic you would need to introduce more time in deploying a scoped weapon. That's the big advantage of open sights and why don't use scopes in combat. The miss alignment thing seems way over done I have never seen a scope with that much paralax.

 

[ecale3]

The sniper rifles in-games are fairly easy to use, i dunno what you are talking about.

 

[DamienW]

Hold your right mouse button (or whatever you have mapped to "aim"). It makes the scope steady. Crouch or go prone for even more steadiness.

Edit 1 : for old times' sake, RTFM

Edit 2 : the reason you don't see PSG-1 and RC-50 on servers is not because they're too hard to use, but on the contrary because they're too easy (once you hold your "aim" button)and their use is frowned upon by the "open sights mafia"...

 

[Dr.J]

but the fact that sniper rifles are not justified in inf doesnt change - ive yet to see a map that features ranges anywhere the 500 inf metres range. if anyone was doing anything other than standing still (like those man sized targets in the shooting range) - even crouching still or laying prone - youre sure as hell not gonna hit him. and i also think that the zoom is a bit off - if sniper rifles are meant for engagement at 500m+, in inf you can hardly see the bullseye of the sniper target with the PSG scope or the RC50 without using the weapon mode key... and in real life id say that you need to have more zoom than what there is now... (hell the crosshair on the scopes can completely cover the bullseye at 500m) the freeaim with the sniper rifles are something i have a problem with (not sure about you guys out there, i only play offline )... theres simply way too much of it... if the freeaim zone was lets say 5cmx5cm on a 17" monitor thatd be good. the mouse sensitivity reduction with scopes also lets the system down - what RAv2 had (ie no sensitivity reduction) was much more satisfying to play with.

i personally really liked the say RAv2 handled sniping - it fitted quite well with what i imagined to be real (note the word imagine - please correct me if ive got something wrong).

and with the muscle tremor, all games at the moment that try to simulate this cant do it right - its always overdone.... in mgs/AA:O the movement pattern is quite realistic, but because of the insufficient zoom that made it look way too artificial and as if the game character was moving his arms himself to deter himself from hitting his target. in inf i think that theres way too much when youre not holding your breath, and its way too still when you are. the extremes should be toned down a lot - something with a mgs style movement pattern but acts this way with a much bigger zoom (ie the movements themselves when zoomed OUT are much less apparent) would be very nice. also when holding ones breath, there should be still quite a bit of movement - but that goes for all inf weapons.

... and thats my cry about sniper rifles in inf (just my opinion, someone with experience may wanna correct me)

 

[jayhova]

I would say that you are right on the money on most of this. The breathing in INF really doesn't work for me. The whole head bob think tends to make me seasick. I like the breathing in AA I also like the way aiming is handled in TTR mod where if you aim at a spot for a while (more than a couple of seconds) the sight drifts down off the target and you have to re-aim.

I would say that the reason that scoped rifles are not all that great fo me is that with an M16 I can easily hit targets only a few pixles high without holding my breath. With the scope aiming is just such a pain in the @ss. It's much more difficult than it it in real life.

 

[gal-z]

in inf i think that theres way too much when youre not holding your breath, and its way too still when you are

I agree with that.
Also, the reason I don't use scopes is that it's practical to run with sights up when using iron sights. This greatly reduces the time it takes u to get first shot out. This isn't very realistic, as you would never really run while actually looking through the sights, but would run with the weapon shouldered and have to re-allign/aim the weapon when u stop - this is also possible with scoped weapons IRL but doesn't exist in-game. I guess adding the long-needed shouldered position and reducing the effectiveness (aiming-time-wise) of running with sights up would help solve a significant part of the problem.

 

[Logan6]

Well, found out something today. The PSG-1 only has a 6x scope on it. I think that sucks, but then I found out that HK only guarentees its accuracy out to 600 meters! This on a $10,000 dollar rifle? What gives? So I guess the zoom in game is accurate. However, I did find out that the makers of most .50 caliber rifles are suggesting the 6-24X scope for their rifles. Ziess makes on in 6-24x50mm for $1500.

Now if you want a real sniper rifle in the game, I think we should go with the Dakota Longbow T76. Kill range of 1200 - 1400 meters! with guarrenteed
.5 MOA accuracy. Now thats a rifle!

T76 Longbow

 

[Lolo Konijn]

Logan did you try this yet?

Hold your right mouse button (or whatever you have mapped to "aim"). It makes the scope steady. Crouch or go prone for even more steadiness.

 

[Demosthanese]

In reality, you are just as acurate with or without a scope at most ranges. The nice thing
about the scope is that it allows you to see better.As to the jitter, yeah, it doesn't jitter
that much IRL, but when you compensate with the mouse, you get about the same jitter
in game as you do IRL. Also, hold your breath, and it quits moving.

I don't care for the scope system. It is a bit too much when you don't hold breath, and
no one can hold a rifle that still. The true mark of an expert shooter is not how still
(s)he can hold the rifle, but the ability to fire when the rifle passes across the target.

 

[Logan6]

Yeah, its too extreme on both ends. I tried the truescale mutator, but it doesn't seem to have it too right either. Not bad when your moving the scope but when you stop it jitters too much, swinging way up sometimes. Hopefully someone will write a mutator to get it right soon. And hopefully someone will add and calibrate the mil dots on the scopes.

 

[punitore]

1) we should be able to shoot with scope off, like 2.86. it's HARD aim that way, but damn, with sniper rifle bulk (look at robar one!) is still balanced!!
2) we need more zoom, more and more. difficult should be calculate the trajectory, not understand " if that pixel is an enemy ".
3) from standing position you simply can't hold your weapon sooooo stopped.
BUT when u crouch you can put you elbow on your leg, and be nearly stopped. from proning weapon is always stopped. bipod should be a good innovation
4) never tryed real .50 by myself, but i think robar and PSG should be a bit more accurate. just a bit. damn seems hard hit targets at 500 m in shooting range. 2000m is 4 times it. and barrett is for 1800+ meters!

 

[Cleeus[JgKdo]]

1) we should be able to shoot with scope off, like 2.86.

I disagree

it's HARD aim that way,

It isn't, shooting from hip becomes easy when you do it alot. In 2.86 you had two good CQB weapons: M3 and RC50

but damn, with sniper rifle bulk (look at robar one!) is still balanced!!

no - exspecially the psg1 would be a semi-auto one shot one kill monster

2) we need more zoom, more and more. difficult should be calculate the trajectory, not understand " if that pixel is an enemy ".

hmm, im ok with how they are now and usually see my enemies

3) from standing position you simply can't hold your weapon sooooo stopped.

i agree

BUT when u crouch you can put you elbow on your leg, and be nearly stopped. from proning weapon is always stopped. bipod should be a good innovation

1) when your moving it still wobbles
2) you still have to breath and your heart still beats

4) never tryed real .50 by myself, but i think robar and PSG should be a bit more accurate. just a bit. damn seems hard hit targets at 500 m in shooting range. 2000m is 4 times it. and barrett is for 1800+ meters!

Hmm, its a question for the weapon experts but .50 usually isn't fired agains person sice targets but armored vehicles or objects which usually are bigger then a person. I don't know the exact accuracy but i bet the team had either good reasons to make it how it is or wasn't able due to technical issues to make it better.

 

[ecale3]

hmm, im ok with how they are now and usually see my enemies
.

I would like to see what a person looks like through a 6x, 10x, and 12x scope at 100, 300, and 500m. I think it would be interesting to see the comparable levels of zoom in-game. Since the way a person in-game looks at 100m is comparable to a much longer distance IRL. Plus the zoom level would make scopes a true long range weapon while simultaneously decreasing its viewing area and close range practicality.

 

[-Freshmeat]

It is a matter of optics, really.

We get a 90° FOV on screen, but in reality the screen takes up much lees of our FOV. When I play, I sit pretty close to my 19" to get a better immersion (less space without game content). This makes the screen fill 60° of my FOV, and when I used a 17", I was closer to 45°. When you project a larger viewing angle into a smaller, you get the effect of things appearing further away. You can test the opposite with a pair of binoculars: Things seems to be more flat, and nearer to each other. My libary is unfortunately still packed from moving, but any book on photography will provide a much clearer explanation on what I mean.

Beppos Aimview mutator did some to alleviate the effect, as you could enter you FOV while aimed. But I have yet to encounter a server with aimview enabled.

-Freshmeat