View Vection & Simulator Sickness

[hoak]

I'd really like to be able to play this mod, I really admire all the design ideas it embodies and it's game-play -- but I can't play because I'm one of those people (roughly 70 to 80% of the population) that get simulator sick (not to be confused with motion sickness) from view self-vection camera effect; aka 'view bob'...

I've previously posted a detailed technical post about scale self-vection in games and combat simulators, how Inf's effect is very over-done and not congruent or to scale with the game; and research on combat simulator design and self-vection camera perspective...

Just asking again, in hopes that now that 2.9 has been out for a while that the Developers may consider may consider offering an option for more realistic, less histrionic and nauseogenic self-vection camera effects?

 

[Derelan]

I'd really like to be able to play this mod, I really admire all the design ideas it embodies and it's game-play -- but I can't play because I'm one of those people (roughly 70 to 80% of the population) that get simulator sick (not to be confused with motion sickness) from view self-vection camera effect; aka 'view bob'...

I've previously posted a detailed technical post about scale self-vection in games and combat simulators, how Inf's effect is very over-done and not congruent or to scale with the game; and research on combat simulator design and self-vection camera perspective...

Just asking again, in hopes that now that 2.9 has been out for a while that the Developers may consider may consider offering an option for more realistic, less histrionic and nauseogenic self-vection camera effects?

Turn down your refresh rate on your monitor?

 

[hoak]

Has no effect and makes no difference...

 

[Derelan]

Has no effect and makes no difference...

Sure it does, a high refresh rate is more believable to your eyes, whereas a lower one although looking hideously ugly will reduce nausea.

And increase eye damage.

 

[hoak]

Riiiiiight, if all a sincere post here is going to get is Trolled; I sure won't get my hopes up for an answer, no less a game option that actually addresses the issue...

 

[yurch]

Your best bet is asking one of the various infiltration-modding groups if they are willing to add it as an option. This depends on what the mod does, of course, it's not particularly feasable to add such a feature if the mod doesn't already effect the particular classes nessesary.
I doubt Sentry will be updating 2.9 at all.
Unfortunately, vection also seems tied in to the weapon behavior(not saying this is right, per se) and thus the general 'balance' of the game.

 

[hoak]

Thanks yurch that's pretty much what I suspected, but still hopeing...

 

[geogob]

hoak, don't turn down Derelan opinion so fast. He is right... the monitor setup as a LOT to do with simulator sickness.

What kind of monitor are using? what size? what is the surrounding environement and lighting in the room where your setup is? How far are you sitting from your monitor? What are the monitor vertical and horizontal refresh rates (e.g. in what mode do you operate it to play INF)?

Also, do you have an history of this problem on different simulators/games? Which ones and how bad was it and how was it corrected if it was?


EDIT: btw, I don't know where you get the 70-80% figures for simulator sickness, but as far as I know, these figures are way off. Do you have any references on this, I'd like to read more on how these statistics where optained and in which population.

 

[Bushwack]

you could always keep some dramamine next to the computer and have some before you play, they make some chewables that are available over the counter in most countries.
If your not into the "better living through modern chemistry" philosophy, you could try some Herbal remedies that you could take as a supplement that might help with things, just my 2 cents, and meant in earnest.

If your not going to have a sense of humor at least to some peoples replies, try to, and please remember this smiley> < doesnt exactly illicit nor scream, " dont troll my post." I must admit, i can appreciate your frustration, but, i have never heard of your problem even in passing, so it sounds vaguely and sufficiently 'fishy', enough so that one might expect a certain amount of 'trolling' remarks.

BW out.

 

[Nukeproof]

A friend of mine has the same problem. Choosing a smaller monitor and sitting at greater distance did help a bit. (although it's not that good for gameplay)

 

[hoak]

Please, I posted an links to exhaustive studies on view vection based nausea, and properly scaling camera vection -- they were deleted... Sim sickness is not motion sickness -- Dramamine will not help, and sadly Inf is so out of scale in this reagard no amount of visual tweaking short of reducing the hilarious amount of view bob will help...

It's surprising and disappointing that a game that has so much attention to detail into other aspects of it's design let this one slip so far and out of scale with the rest of the game...

 

[FieldMedic]

That is a big problem,

In the reality your brain adapt the natural "view bob", but the monitor , as not a part of your own vision system, can't be interpretated by the brain like the natural view bob.

And so videogaming "view bob" , in Infiltration or not, will be always wrong in trying to simulate the natural "bobness" as your brain can't adapt to it the same way than in real life.
Despite trying to simulate a realistic feature of the life, it becomes unrealistic.
So either you get sick or with the time you become used to that.

I remember , when i played Doom when it was a shareware , the view bob was not small, it was huge but i was not disturbed by it (and it was not possible to disable it).

Recently , i reinstalled Doom, to take advantage of the new version of the doomsday engine , and after the first 10mn , i went straight to the toilets.

I don't know if that is all those years of tweaking videogames to "viewbob=0"-like settings made my brain to forget about the huge viewbob and made me more sensitive to it, but fortunately as the doomsday engine allow this (unlike the original Doom version) , by disabling the view bob it solved the problem.

In Infiltration, fortunately, the view bob become horrible only when running, but i never run in Infiltration so maybe that is why i did not got sick yet with it

Maybe a workaround , instead of disabling it, would be to make the viewbob very low or null , but to leave the weapon bobing like it is to simulate a bit better this real life feature.
But it can come only in a mutator form, so either you try to learn how to code it or have a good luck to find someone working on it for you.

 

[geogob]

, I posted an links to exhaustive studies on view vection based nausea, and properly scaling camera vection -- they were deleted

Where? deleted by whom? post it again!

 

[yurch]

Remember that we had a massive forum crash. There were at least a years worth of posts lost.

 

[hoak]

Ohhh, that's awful... Well I'll do a link hunt later, FieldMedic did a fairly good job of suming it up...

Technically what's happening is that Inf is forcing camera vection (bob) that is very simplistic and overdone -- in real life your eyes are not locked in their sockets, and the amount that people "bob" when they walk or run is very individual; some bob hardly at all and everyone's eyes and brain compensate instantly (and differently for the amount of bob in their stride... Most people do not sway laterally at all so lateraly sway or roll in games will look silly to nearly eveyone even if it doesn't make them ill...

A lot of game fans are subject to simulator sickness; in fact the statistic among the general population of susceptibility is very high at somewhere around 87%, though granted most of the general population don't game; a very large number of fans, are susceptible. The problem with 'view vection' in games and nasiacogenic reaction is that you are 'locking' the game into one set of vection parameters that are always crude and the way everyone actually moves and their vision mechanisms compensates is very individual -- what looks acceptable to you will literally make someone else vomit because it looks so wrong and forces them to try and compensate that their brain can't reconcile.

I believe it was DARPA that has done enormous study on view vection based nauseogenic reaction because the numbers of guns running out of flight and combat sims pukeing were so high -- they wanted to make sure that infantry and pilots that were puking in their simulators were not 'defective' and would not be incapacitated in the execution of their job; the study revealed that the issues were with the self-vection employed in flight and combat simulators and had no correlation to real susceptibility to motion sickness.

Most commercial game designers are well aware of this and usually have variables in the game that can be edited client side for exactly these reasons... I can tolerate a a small amount of what's called saw-tooth view vection that has more complex damping functions like htat in America's Army for example -- but sine functions and any lateral sway and I have to reach for the bucket or leave that game... Fortunately or unfortunately depending on your perspective Inf has been the only game I'm attracted to that has locked view vection, all theother games I enjoy don't...

 

[ravens_hawk]

I have a stupid question...
Are we talking about weapon sway or view bob?
IE is it that the weapon moves around all over the place or the whole background moves? (I know you've said its view bob, but I'm wondering if it's aggravated by the weapon bob or something I'm not sure, it's not something I notice)

I could live quite happily with user selectable view bob, I think you're right the world doesn't appear to bob (much, if at all) when you move or run. As long as the weapon's position relative to the world were to stay the same (I think this would be in effect increasing weapon sway,) it could be a matter of considering where the users focus was.

As a side note have you tried an anti-nauscant such as Gravol? I know it’s used to treat motion sickness, but I believe it treats nausea as well (those with nausea as a side effect from other drugs often take it IIRC.)

Edit: Sorry, Gravol is dramamine. But I believe dramamine can be used to treat nausea as well, not just motion sickness. No it won't prevent sim sickness but it should stop one from throwing up, I could be wrong though.

 

[Vega-don]

personnaly, i dont have this problem in video games, but im really sick in cars or planes or boats
my sickness is only related to physical sensations. have you tried not to run, only walking?

 

[Cleeus[JgKdo]]

Maybe a workaround , instead of disabling it, would be to make the viewbob very low or null , but to leave the weapon bobing like it is to simulate a bit better this real life feature.

Thats the point. In INF, when you move, your weapon moves straight and steady like a starship through the world, only the viewcam sways.

 

[hoak]

ravens_hawk, just the view bob component, weapon vection never throws people... Drugs don't/can't help, it's not a middle ear thing, it's an eye-brain thing... The closest thing to illustrate what's going on for people like me is and what's happening is it's rather like an optical illusion where your eyes are tricking your brain...

What's especially disappointing/frustrating is this feature was probably locked in 2.9 (it wasn't previously) because some member of the mod team felt that having less or no view vection would give that player an advantage... This is not the case, as view vection actually improves depth perspective and helps resolve detail in simulators and games as your view of objects is always shifted... In Inf it also is a tool that gives players a tool and a better sense of how inaccurate their weapon is on the move.

Even walking in Inf is a bit much for me, it's bearable but still throws me and I have to stop a lot, it's also very disorienting -- I a very good shot and always at the top of the game in games like Red Orchestra which has very technically sophisticated weapon handling and ballistics...

 

[Derelan]

I just don't see anyone trying to help someone who has rejected all solutions and then says "Make it more like RO".