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Video from iraq

Discussion in 'Off Topic' started by geogob, Nov 30, 2005.

  1. geogob

    geogob Koohii o nomimasu ka?

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    I found this on the Project Reality Mod forum.
    (http://realitymod.com/forum/t2724-contractors-shooting-at-civilians.html)

    Not sure if I'd rather be sick now and comment later or the other way around. The stupid music the video maker put in the sound track is also somewhat sickening. Reminds me of the music in kill bill.

    http://realitymod.com/forum/t2724-contractors-shooting-at-civilians.html

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/mai...rq27.xml&sSheet=/news/2005/11/27/ixworld.html


    This definately helps to explain why the iraquies are a bit tired of occidental presence in their country.
     
  2. hara

    hara Where's my backup?

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  3. geogob

    geogob Koohii o nomimasu ka?

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    Sure. That justifies slowing down to shoot innocent drivers who happen to pass by.

    I think they now also have the right to shoot people that seem to be a menace in Florida. I should go there and shoot anyone I see on the street. You never know who might try to rob you, attack you or kill you too.
     
  4. Rostam

    Rostam PSN: Rostam_

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    You would say that when **** like this goes on, the citizens of that country would have the right to kick the invaders out by any means necessary. I know this isn't entirely right to say, but I can be perfectly honest and say that if I would be Iraqi; I'd be placing bombs too.

    The problem as always is that neither sides are entirely evil nor entirely good. Another problem, also very common, is that while the young men are bleeding and going crazy of fear the old are cashing in their profit.

    But more specifically on the video, at first I thought they were firing blanks. That still doesn't make it right since it will obviously scare the hell out of people and might cause a carcrash, but I just didn't want to believe that people were actually doing something THAT stupid. Bush would probably just say the same thing as he did after the Abu Ghraib photos: don't judge america on a few rotton apples. Sad that immidiately after a problem has been discovered, a scapegoat is picked and thrown in the crowd. Imagine how much better the situation in Iraq would be if the problem (vague orders, amongst others) would be solved.

    Come to think of it, incidents like this are starting to remind me of the My Lai masssacre in the Vietnam war. Same problems, I think.
     
  5. 5eleven

    5eleven I don't give a f**k, call the Chaplain

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    I watched an excellent documentary on PBS specifically on private security contractors in Iraq, and also their operations on "Route Irish".

    I gotta tell you, although the music that the video is set to may be in poor taste, I remember distinctly the GIANT signs on the backs of the private contractor's end-convoy vehicles with huge STOP SIGNS and KEEP BACK in both English and Arabic.

    Sorry, while I don't necessarily agree with private security contractors "in theatre", that's the way it is. I see the video entirely differently. A car speeds toward you and is identified as using a common tactic - insurgents, terrorists, whatever, they know who the contractors are - the contractors fire a volley of warning shots at the vehicle. The vehicle speeds up or continues, what are they supposed to do? Wait and see? Hell with that. Changes in response tactics are commensurate with changes in attack tactics. You'll also note when the taxi gets hit, that the occupants actually RUN from the vehicle at a relatively good clip - is that indicative to a normal response to a traffic crash? No. You'll also notice that the last vehicle, when fired on and struck in the windshield - it's hit on the passenger side of the windshield, across the car. If the operator is a good enough shot to hit a vehicle in the windshield while both targets are moving, I think he's good enough to hit the driver. He didn't.

    Maybe so. But frankly, that sense of humor is prevalent in war zones. Has to be, otherwise everyone would lose it. Same sense of humor in safety services. Doesn't concern me. Funny that it's okay in films that glorify violence and death, but when the real deal is set to music it's so sickening.

    The video is shot from the rear. I didn't see them slow down TO shoot, nor did I see anyone make it close enough to pass by. When the contractors DO slow down, I have no idea why. And when people in Florida start driving car bombs into police cars, or strapping explosives on themselves and walking into malls or police stations, or other crowded places to kill people, I imagine I'll be more inclined to support preemptive killing too.

    The 72 virgins await.
    Wow, that's really a brilliant quote. Makes no sense, means nothing, and can be neither proven or disproven. Excellent.
    They generally don't fire blanks in a war zone. If they did, I'd imagine the insurgents would pick up on that pretty quickly. Car crashes are small potatoes to the alternative = BOOM! 150 attacks on that stretch of road in a four month period. What you might call paranoia, in that situation, I call "being prepared". And as far as you're Bush comment goes:
    Hope that answers your question from the other thread. ;)

    EDIT - Oh yeah, one last thing Ros: Abu Ghraib was a prison system run by the US military, of which Dubya is the Commander-In-Chief. Private contractors shooting at vehicles are not under command of the military, but by a civilian corporation, of which Dubya is not the Commander-In-Chief. In addition, from the article, I think the contractors may have been British, hence the article and the comments and tone of the article. Dubya is neither King, nor Prime Minister of England. This also proves:
     
    Last edited: Nov 30, 2005
  6. Rostam

    Rostam PSN: Rostam_

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    5eleven, the car of the private contractor was SLOWING DOWN. In one it even looked as if it was going to back up.

    As are all opinions.

    edit:
    By the way, not sure why the hell you are responding like that to me but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt. Let's not make this personal.

    edit2:
    5eleven, I don't hate Bush. I don't hate anybody.
     
    Last edited: Nov 30, 2005
  7. 5eleven

    5eleven I don't give a f**k, call the Chaplain

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    Agreed, I wasn't trying to. Just feeling rather cheeky today. And I guess I see that video and it's contents completely differently. Sorry if I offended. Shoulda used more smileys.
    If that's true, you're a better man than I. I hate LOTS of people. :lol: But seriously, the only point I was trying to make regarding your Bush comment, was that even though these contractor's actions have nothing to do with GWB, and he is not responsible for their actions, it seems to be easy to immediately attribute everything negative to Bush. Therein lies my other comment, or rather quote from Harrm, that illustrates that hatred for Bush by some people, seems to completely outweigh any common sense in a specific situation. That EVERYTHING bad is attributed to Bush. And that just isn't so.
     
  8. OpFor

    OpFor Feeling suicide, thats O.K.

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    Well the van in the first part of the video could be an insurgent. After numerous rounds being pumped into it, it still kept going, and for a while, was speeding up. However I dont see how most of the other vehicles behind the car could pose a threat.
     
  9. AlmostAlive

    AlmostAlive Active Member

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    Let's be honest. There was no threat whatsoever. Morons out joyriding, shooting at people for fun. That's what it was.

    That statement is just plain stupid in this context. Did we see the same video? "Oh, we're here to rebuild Iraq for the general public. Let's go out and shoot someone".
     
  10. DEFkon

    DEFkon Shhh

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    I think the video only sheds some light on just how bad things in that area really are. All i can say is that i feel sorry for those that live there, and were sent there, and that i question the sanity of those that would chose to go there for adventure or money. I just hope that things settle down over there.
     
  11. 5eleven

    5eleven I don't give a f**k, call the Chaplain

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    I was being honest. It's all in your perception and point of view. Assumptions are already made about what was seen on the video. You don't know what their assignment or mission was, but usually it involves some type of protection detail for dignitaries/civilians/businesspeople flying in and out of Baghdad Airport. You don't know how many vehicles there were in a convoy/caravan - because rarely do contractors go it alone with one vehicle. I didn't hear any laughter, banter, or joking as shots were fired, and the first shots in the volleys did not appear to be fired with an intention to hit the vehicle. They appeared to me to be warning shots, first. I don't know if you've been shot at, or had to prepare to shoot at someone, but I don't care who you are, it isn't a joke, period. And how can you say there was no threat whatsoever? How do you know?
    Rostam, as I said earlier, the viewfinder is only pointing one way. If you saw the contractor's vehicle slow or stop, you do NOT know why. I don't understand how it "looked as if it was going to back up". I did see on the PBS special, several intentional and unintentional traffic jams, which are occasionally designed for ambushes of the contractors. The contractors always attempt to keep moving. During that special, they would not continue the journey because of one such jam, and turned around and took the correspondents back. While they maneuvered through some of the traffic at slower speeds, armed contractors walked ahead of the vehicles, to inspect other cars and occupants and order vehicles moved. The contractor's vehicles stopped several times, and it wasn't to back up and shoot at approaching vehicles. I realize that it looks bad to some - I'm just looking at the other side of it, and telling you that it isn't always as it seems. Don't make assumptions, or at least try to put yourselves in the shoes of the contractor.
     
  12. AlmostAlive

    AlmostAlive Active Member

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    Was there anything, anything at all in that video that indicated there was a threat? We all base our conclusions on what we saw. You assume there was a threat. What exactly do you base that on? You say there was no laughter. Was there any screams? Like "Speed up! They are gaining on us!" Or "They are shooting! Fire back!". How about We're under fire! Let's get the hell out of here!"

    Anyone with even the most basic training behind the wheel knows that you don't slow down when you are being fired upon or find yourself in a situation where your life is in danger. You get the hell out of there. Instead, they are slowing down to pump even more bullets into an already disabled car. We see them randomly shooting at passing vehicles. We see them shooting into the tarmac without any vehicle behind them. Seriously. How can anyone see it differently. It's called joyriding. The difference in this case is that they are doing it with a loaded AK47.
     
  13. 5eleven

    5eleven I don't give a f**k, call the Chaplain

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    Yes, there was. First, 150 such attacks on that stretch of road in a four month period. When there are 150 attacks, you generally pick up on the method of operation of your adversaries.
    If you listen, you can hear radio traffic and/or a spotter calling out the vehicles that are approaching at rapid speeds. Once again, they identify the vehicle and fire warning shots. When the vehicle doesn't stop or slow from the warning shots, they fire on the vehicles.

    A threat is identified as a threat first. If you don't identify the threat, and you are killed, it's not a threat, it's a promise. :)
    90% of the contractors there are former military. As such, they don't generally yell such things as "speed up", "they're gaining on us" or "get the hell out of here". The goal is to keep the convoy intact, and not to allow it to be broken. They will continue to move as they can and hold their ground, while keeping suspicious vehicles away from them. You'll note the other vehicles keeping their distance. It's only the rapidly advancing vehicles that they fire at. When the vehicles stop or back off, they stop firing.

    Again - you do NOT know what is going on in front of the vehicle. YOU are basing your assumptions regarding slowing and speeding up based on a rearward camera angle. The guy driving certainly ain't the one firing, and I don't hear anyone issuing an order or request to slow down so they can shoot more.

    Sorry, but basic training behind the wheel has absolutely nothing to do with driving in an armed convoy, dignitary protection, tactical vehicle operations, or even military driving, period.

    And I'm not certain, but I don't think they were firing into the road. It looked to me like something was tossed from the vehicle - some type of distraction or fragmentation device, I don't know. That's what it looked like to me.

    And I dispute "joyriding". No fool jumps onto that road to "joyride". And the only weapon I saw not only did not SOUND like an AK, but I caught a glimpse of a muzzle, and it looked to me to be in the M4 family.
     
  14. UN17

    UN17 Taijutsu Specialist

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    I wish there was a cure for stupidity.
     
  15. Nightmare

    Nightmare Only human

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    BTW, I recently discovered that these private contractors are Unlawful Combatants, same as the classification of Gitmo prisoners. Mercenaries aren't accorded any rights, you can just execute them when you catch them.
     
  16. geogob

    geogob Koohii o nomimasu ka?

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    Sounds like fun! You can kill anyone, but everyone can kill you too. Awesome place for sick minds
     
  17. MP_Lord_Kee

    MP_Lord_Kee New Member

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    I'm with 5eleven on this one. Tasteless to put music in the clip but probably that has been done to mask the voices I'd guess. On the other hand, why even post this on the net in the first place...?

    Anyway, I don't want to get involved in a lenghty argument at this point, if someone really wants to discuss this, use pm. :)

    //K
     
  18. Arethusa

    Arethusa We will not walk in fear.

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    Unfair. Kill Bill is over the top and hyperstylized. The blood and gore are not meant to be taken strictly seriously. Set Black Hawk Down to that music and you get about the same reaction. There is black humor and there is tasteless disregard for human suffering and injustice.

    Of course, it's also worth noting that the music has likely nothing to do with the people in the video. That was probably added on by some 14 year old kid on the internet. Also, I am pretty sure that that is Charlie Feathers. Certainly sounds like it.

    Also unfair. I don't agree with some of the things he said, but this much is true: the Iraqis are not big bad evil terrorists out to get us (no, not even the ones that are out to get us), and the Americans are not big bad evil invaders out to get them (well, not the guys on the ground, anyway). His point about old men getting rich by putting poor kids in the sand may be an obtuse oversimplification (especially on the insurgent/Iraqi side of things), and it may be imprecise, but it is not inaccurate.

    Aren't almost all the military private military contractors under the command of the US? And not that these guys are a part of that, but isn't the Bush administration pushing heavily for privatization of parts of the intelligence/espionage world in order to increase plausible deniability when he wants to play dirty?

    For what it's worth, all that aside, I agree with everything you said about the contractors. From what I could see, they showed proper restraint in extremely tough circumstances. Very few people here seem to have any grasp of the dilemmas presented by close protection duty. I wanted to see that documentary, too.

    On a side note, were those rifles suppressed?
     
    Last edited: Dec 1, 2005
  19. mat69

    mat69 just fooling around

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    How do you secure yourself the best way against (suicide-)car-bomb attacks?
    You keep away from cars, but as you know that is not a good idea if you have to drive somewhere. :rolleyes:
    So you have to create some tactics as keeping the cars away from you!
    I understand that they want some distance between them and following cars, they maybe also want to have a distance between cars in front of them, allthough those cars are not such a high risk as the cars following you I assume because you can turn around and drive away --> if I (alone) was to kill someone with my explosive car I would closing from the back, because that way I could drive the same road the whole day, passing cars to see if some targets are in them, or I would place a bomb in a parking car.
    I think the keeping cars behind you is a way to lessen the risk to be killed by a suicide bomber and I understand that soldiers and contractors (who are allowed by the US administration to stay in Iraq) force this "rule" by all means.

    Now to the video:
    Putting "keep back .."-sings on the back of the car (photos of those signs [how big they are ...] would be very important! otherwise this discussion is nearly wortheless imo) is a good way to warn followers, not to forget that there are many (22% --> the article is said to be found somewhere here, a german page said that this page is the source) illiterates in iraq, so those signs have to be clearly readable and understandable for those who can not read. I guess they have stop signs in iraq so the form of the word "stop" should be also familiar to those being not able to read.

    It does not look like they are using silencers (00:00:38), maybe they are using subsonic ammo. On second 51 you can clearly see that the car is way back and he was still shooting (stopped soon after), allthough we do not know what he is shooting at. Yet the risk is there that he could harm innocent people. On 1:15 it seems that they stop to make a clear shot on the car (that was way back before), but they do stop close to another car (is a possible threat), so imo they risk more than they gain. They could have driven away, assuming that there is no traffic jam or the like in front of them.
    What's the exploding stuff on 1:37?
    On 2:29 they slow down - for whatever reason - and hit they car they "warned" (?) in 1:37 with XY.
    In the last scene they are also very slow - for whatever reason.

    Overall there is not enough information on the video, because you see not what is in front of the car, but it seems (!) that they abuse their right. They could argue that they took out those suspicious cars, because if there is really a bomb in that car they wanted no possible threat (following them) from behind. And if they informed the army of such possible bombs the army could invistigate in that issue further and remove the vehicle from the street, but not necessary to say that it would take ages until the hit cars are removed and untill that time many other people are vulnerable.
    The video leavse a bad impression, but for more I have too less information.

    Edit: sorry for repeating stuff, I did not read the whole thread before, anyway arethusa's last message says it pretty good what I think
    Edit2: Tried to make my post more readable
     
    Last edited: Dec 1, 2005
  20. Rostam

    Rostam PSN: Rostam_

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    I understand, but I don't see how that would work out in every part of the video. The driver barely turned, and only slowed down when that other guy started shooting. At this point I would say that he isn't trying to keep a distance from traffic but trying to aid the gunner as much as possible.

    Doesn't make much sense since you can turn sounds off.

    As for my Bush comment, it was just there to show that I do not believe this is the work of a few rotten apples. I believe this is the work of a very flawed system. Other then the vague orders that I mentioned earlier, any tactic which includes frequent shooting at civilians is a wrong one. Adding tension to that, maybe the rush of combat or (perhaps more likely) the fear of getting hurt or killed, and I just don't see how much good can come out of Iraq. Not for the Iraqi's, anyway. Which explains the old men getting rich part.

    More specific on the video: The first 'truck' that seems to speed up is shot at till it slows down, then shot at till it seems to come to a complete stop. It is continued to be shot at till the range is probably too big to hit. Assuming safety ever played a role, you'd think the truck would stop getting shot at as soon as it slowed down. But it seemed to receive full auto fire after that.

    The second part in which that mercedes is shot at and crashes, they were driving past a whole bunch of cars. Assuming they had the manpower to check every one of those cars before overtaking, they should have the manpower to put a check point behind the convoy (or single car) and stop traffic untill the checkpoint has gained some speed. Because right now that car is just moving at a normal speed while that convoy (or single car) is not, I don't know how big those signs are that you speak of, but I don't see how that car could have reacted in time when it had that speed.

    In the third part it seems to be obvious that there is just one car, not a convoy. The car seems to want to cross the road (to the left for the driver) but has to wait for the traffic coming from the other side to stop.

    Now the 'interesting' thing about all these cases is that a guy coming from the back isn't seen as a threat, while cars just a few feet away (other side of the road) are seen as none. If this really is the tactic used, then it is seriously flawed because it won't take long before the omgterrists adapt. It is also an illegal one since it doesn't give civilians to see in time that they are supposed to stop, making it dangerous. Now you could argue that these private contractors don't want to give their presence away. But the life of civilians are worth atleast just as much as the private contractors choosing to go there and make a profit.

    I still don't think there was a convoy, or anything important at all. More likely they were doing what they thought they were supposed to be doing. Not exactly uncommon for people (see Abu Ghraib example).

    Whatever the case might be I don't see anything good coming from this video. I'm pretty damned good at putting myself in the shoes of another person, but however I do it in this case; the situation remains ****ed up. I honestly don't see anything that makes sense, at all. You could argue that all war is like this, except this time stalemate seems to be the objective instead of 'winning'.


    edit:
    Bah, I hate writing in the morning. Hope it is readable.
     
    Last edited: Dec 1, 2005

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