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UT 3.5 (no trolls allowed)

Discussion in 'Unreal Tournament 3' started by RoninMastaFX, Feb 11, 2008.

  1. T2A`

    T2A` I'm dead.

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    You obviously have no idea what an elitist is. Spank$hot (see above) is an elitist -- I am a realist and a cynic. :p

    Of course, I don't expect you to see above, because many would rather express their personal views on me rather than be open to anything I have to say. It's serious business here on the internets!

    I know the DM/CTF maps, the only ones relevant to me. Is that enough or should I learn all the maps for vehakal gametypes I won't ever play?

    The only person being elitist here is you. And Spank$hot.

    It's funny how you're so anti-n00b yet so for a n00b gametype being standard. It's like a Freudian slip. :)
     
  2. ambershee

    ambershee Nimbusfish Rawks

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    Lightning Guns made my life a misery.
     
  3. Spank$hot_BT

    Spank$hot_BT New Member

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    Then we must of been playing different games and so must the greater majority of the folk here
    http://ut2004stats.epicgames.com/index.php?stats=players
    Check a few weapon stats.

    ??? Hardly anti-noob, just don't want a game designed primarily for casual/PS3 gamers. You'll notice i also added a solution for 'newer/casual' gamers.

    Tam/Freon noob? Now that's elitist! A lot of players enjoy these game types and there's hardly a casual player among them. A few less skilled, maybe.
     
  4. T2A`

    T2A` I'm dead.

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    TAM is all about casual play. Everyone's on an even footing and all positional and control cues from item placement are null and void. You don't have to work for teamwork since you spawn together, and there's even a health handicap for the winning team so scores don't get out of hand. This is the definition of casual, not competitive. TAM is as casual as it gets... which is why it's popular. If it were less casual like TDM, CTF, and 1v1, it wouldn't have gained such popularity. If popularity is the same as competitive, then Halo 3 is the most competitive game there is. :)

    Somehow I know you're going to come back and disagree. No one listens. No one changes.
     
  5. Plutonia_Experi

    Plutonia_Experi New Member

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    If a gametype is not in the outofthebox version, it's not for casual gamer.
    Noobs don't look for mod.
     
  6. Sir_Brizz

    Sir_Brizz Administrator Staff Member

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    We all know how trustworthy UT2004 stats system was, so I'm not even going to go there.
     
  7. heyqule

    heyqule New Member

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    if there is a 3.5... it better has compatibility with UT3.0... =.=
     
  8. UBerserker

    UBerserker old EPIC GAMES

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    I agree with quite all here, except the obvious crap in post n*38.

    More polish. And maps that aren't like BioHazard, Heatray or Deimos.

    And obviously, with everything (at least pretty much) fixed, more players! The thing I really want :)
     
  9. hilo_

    hilo_ New Member

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    I'm certainly not suggesting that at all. But very few of the maps are suited for "serious" play, at least for duel. Imo. Most of the maps are fine for casual, ffa deathmatch play, but really aren't suited for real competitive play because of gimmicks, unbalances, or other reasons.

    I understand that a majority of people fall under the "casual" category, and that, because of this, game developers must cater to these players if they want them to stick around. However, I also believe that the developers need to reward those players who play the game for the long term, and spend time getting better at it. To leave out either group is wrong. It seems to me like epic simplified the game to be more suitable for console/newbie players, and in doing so went overboard. The one exception to this is the gameplay. I think epic did a great job making the core gameplay suitible for newbies, but still rewarding for the more experienced players.

    What UT3.5 needs:
    1. More customiziblility/flexibility
    2. Better UI (more functional server browser falls under this)
    3. More maps for CTF and DM (they can make a couple for the vehicle gametypes too I guess.. :p), with more of an emphasis on gameplay
    4. Another gametype, get creative
    5. More character models, voice packs, etc
    6. Client side demo recording
     
  10. Anuban

    Anuban Your reward is that you are still alive

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    ^^^ One thing is for certain ... I definitely agree with your what UT3.5 needs list. :)
     
  11. T2A`

    T2A` I'm dead.

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    Here's my official way2long reply to this. Good thing I'm unemployed, eh? I think I need a BuF break. My fingers hurt. :(

    Gameplay, like other aspects of level design, is a measurable feature of a map that can be judged. Fun factor is not. Any map can be fun to any number of people because fun is purely subjective. Hence why many huge empty cubes, "mini me" maps, and other similar things have been made, played, and enjoyed.

    I don't claim to be an expert, but I've played a veritable f**kton of maps made by authors of all skill levels. I've participated in enough playtime, competitive and otherwise, to understand the ideas behind what drives good and bad gameplay, both in the map and in the game itself.

    Many people (hilo_, for example) seem to be of similar mind, though many are not. Many understand that gameplay has measurable elements that define the gameplay experience. Flow, Z-axis usage, item placement, tactical elements, connectivity, scale, overarching strategies, balance, etc. are things that are inherent to each and every map and separate from both what the game can offer and basic fun factor. Thus, these things are objective.

    Now, since you and others obviously don't believe anything I have to say and are quick to accuse me of being a hater, here are two examples that I feel show that I can diagnose gameplay elements and also why I find the gameplay lacking in most UT3 maps. Technically, these are just my opinions, but I believe them to be quite true. First up, Sentinel, the map I consider to be the best UT3 has to offer as far as DM is concerned.

    [screenshot]http://img442.imageshack.us/img442/2087/gameplay1vi3.jpg[/screenshot]

    The shield belt, a pickup of obvious contention, especially in a 1v1, sits at point A. Let's assume a player is waiting at A for the belt to respawn. Because ramp slides are no longer possible in UT3, any enemy approaches from within the waterway below the bridge are nulled out. Points B (both high and low) and C are the only truly viable means of approaching point A. Upper B is basically an extension of C.

    While it's true that a hammer jump could come from D, it is highly unlikely (especially in a 1v1) for a couple reasons -- it takes health and it's very loud. If someone is at A already, they would hear the pumping of the hammer well in advance and prepare for it. Thus, the vast majority of approaches come from B and C since coming from D isn't all that effective. Avoiding a hammer jump, being at D means you must travel either up to C or all the way over to B first to reach the belt.

    If everything comes from B and C, then everything comes from the same direction and within the same field of view when standing at A. This means the player at A knows exactly where an attack is coming from no matter what. Fighting for the belt on Sentinel is not terribly unlike running uphill in a war battle -- the enemy at the top of the hill knows where you are, can cover those spots easily, and thus has a great tactical advantage.

    This distinction gives the player camping at A the advantage by far, meaning that camping there is a viable strategy due to this imbalance. This is a risk vs. reward concern -- the player at A gets a great reward for taking on only a little risk. Since camping is incredibly lame and boring, this gameplay quirk lessens Sentinel's viability as a 1v1 map, and, instead, likens it as a small FFA level.

    Then there's the bars at point E. These just further extend the problems. You can shoot through them, which is kind of nice, but it's not enough, especially since the enemy can shoot back, and a shock combo in that small area is much more effective than one out towards the belt. From E your only choices are -- again -- to go up to C or run all the way to B.

    To fix this issue of risk vs. reward, some sort of viable route is necessary near D that doesn't require the loss of both health and surprise factor due to a hammer jump. Removing the bars as well would then create a full 180 degrees from which one could approach the belt, upping the risk factor of camping near it greatly.

    [screenshot]http://img146.imageshack.us/img146/2541/gameplay5bx6.jpg[/screenshot]

    Here's the area that I consider the most amateurish in Defiance. Why is this room here? Like other empty hallways around the map, its only purpose is connectivity. In fact, within the area I've lined off, the only pickups you'll find are ammo! Surely, ammo isn't a big enough reason to build a whole new area, is it?

    The answer is no. The map needs this section for the sake of connectivity. To the left you reach the damage amp or shock depending on if you go high or low. You can get to the sniper and then head over to the goo if you want. It connects at A for the long vest sewer. Or you can go through a room opposite the "camera" in this shot with a few vials that dumps you out near the flak and shield belt.

    I could have extended this outlined portion to include areas that only have ammo and vials. Then it would cover both catwalks, the halls between the far catwalk and the goo, and the connecting room between B and the flak/belt area. All that empty space is there for what reason, exactly?

    This area demonstrates the importance of item placement quite well. I bet you've noticed that bots don't come here that often, and the lack of pickups is the sole reason. Pickups are what drives a bot to move around, not enemies, and without pickups or pickups of substantial worth, the bots aren't enticed to move.

    So, could they fix this? Well, they could move the amp to these center boxes. That gives worth to the room overall but also alleviates some of the issues of empty upper hallways -- once you get through them you get to take an easy jump down onto the amp. However, having the amp there would put it too close to both the helmet and the vest below.

    It's feasible, then, to consider having the sewer go from its current entrance near the shock rifle to the connecting vial room on the opposite end of this screenshot. Essentially, it would be rotated from the shock room entrance to the left some amount. This would keep the vest away from our new amp position, and then the helmet could be put basically anywhere since it's no better than a health pack and two vials.

    My point is that this area of the map sucks because the item placement sucks. This place is nearly devoid of anything worthwhile because of how things are set up in the surrounding areas. A little thought in redoing a single hallway could probably fix it, but it didn't happen, so instead there's a ghost town in this section of the map.

    -----

    These kinds of gameplay mishaps are present all over UT3. Once you get rid of the gimmick maps -- Biohazard, Deimos, Fearless, Gateway, HeatRay, RisingSun, and Sanctuary -- we're not left with much. Arsenal and CarbonFire suffer the same problems as Defiance but in much more harsh ways. They both lack flow and strategy, have empty areas, and demonstrate questionable item placement ideology. Deck is Deck. Sentinel and ShangriLa round out the group -- both decent but nothing exciting.

    With so many objectionable maps, it's not hard to see why I am sorely disappointed. Sure, not every map can or even has to be great, and any map can be fun when full of random players in a FAA, but there's no greatness in UT3. Where's the Ironic and Rankin and Antalus of UT3? They're not there. The "meh"s and "ugh"s are given out for a reason, and it's because there's no lasting greatness in any of UT3's (DM) maps. There's only one decent 1v1 map (Sentinel) and it's got balance problems. Awesome!

    When you add in the rest of the problems outside of the gameplay and maps, I honestly feel cheated and I wish I could get my freaking $50 back. There were lots of other games I could have gotten with that money instead.

    TL;DR SUMMARY
    - Gameplay has measurable elements separate from having fun.
    - Sentinel has flow/balance issues.
    - Defiance has item placement issues.
    - No great maps in UT3, but, instead, lots of gimmicks and mediocrity.
     
  12. NeoNite

    NeoNite Worst hack fraud ever

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    Better get a job. Being unemployed is hell. And I'm glad I no longer have to deal with it.
     
    Last edited: Feb 12, 2008
  13. B

    B Bee

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    Damn T2A you are seriously over analyzing the maps. How about playing them and trying to have fun?
    Also it's quite funny to see you praise Sentinel as a great map (which hardly gets voted on any of the servers I play on) and you complain about defiance (which gets voted like 2 out of 5 rounds)

    You need a real life. :)
     
  14. Jrubzjeknf

    Jrubzjeknf Registered Coder

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    Yes, everybody knows how trustworthy public mapvote stats are at determining whether a map is good or bad. :p
     
  15. B

    B Bee

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    I'm not talking about voting stats. I see maps like defiance, diesel and rising sun get picked over and over on the servers I play (I actually play and like the game :eek: )
    while maps like sentinel, deimos & bio hardly get picked.
     
  16. Anuban

    Anuban Your reward is that you are still alive

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    Well that's cool that you went through all that trouble to explain your feelings but I still have to say I disagree with your analysis ... again to me all the areas have significance in that they add more realism to the level and to me that makes for better immersion and a more satisfying gaming experience. But to each his own ... it is interesting that you say that UT3 is horrible or whatever yet you admit that you aren't interested in trying the Warfare and VCTF maps which is where the action really is. Some of the new Vehicles are really incredible and most of the refined Axon vehicles are much better in both looks and capability. And the majority of the levels are really good and lots of fun ... so how can you condemn the game if you won't play the full thing especially when the focus of UT3 is mainly the vehicles, that's the part I don't get. But hey that is cool ... if you really feel this strongly about it well fine. To each his own I suppose.
     
  17. Dark Pulse

    Dark Pulse Dolla, Dolla. Holla, Holla.

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    UT3 doesn't equal just DM, 1v1, and that's it, you know.

    The maps probably are built better for FFA DM than 1v1 DM, but ripping a whole game to shreds on one facet - how well it plays in more 1v1 Duel style settings - is serious shortsightedness.

    That said, since I don't play 1v1 Duel, I think most of the maps are pretty fun. I've had many great games on lots of those maps. I think that's what Epic was shooting for while making them and in that area they've succeeded.

    Could they have done a better job of it, and included maps more built for 1v1 play? Certainly, but the hardcore 1v1 crowd is a very small segment compared to even the general DM crowd, which is smaller still compared to Warfare and VCTF. It's all a matter of putting your effort where the players are, and in a case like that obviously 1v1 is going to be more or less overlooked. What's more important, satisfying 400 people or 4000?

    There's UnrealEd. If you want good competitive maps, go ahead and make them, the tools are right there. Just don't cry because Epic didn't do it and call the game a failure solely on that basis.
     
    Last edited: Feb 13, 2008
  18. ShredPrince

    ShredPrince New Member

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    The things I would want to see most:

    Lightning Gun- (Sni-poo Rilfe is teh gay)

    Dodge Jump- (Don't make it so crazy as UT2004, and find a happy medium; it can work, and not affect player scale, UC2 prooved that)

    3rd Firing modes for ALL weapons. -(Again another UC2 thing. I'd like to see the BIo-Gas cloud, and freezeable, growabloe shock cores, and RipJack proxy mines. It'll make UT new, and still classic, and very fun, and fresh, while still staying grounded in it's roots.)
     
    Last edited: Feb 13, 2008
  19. T2A`

    T2A` I'm dead.

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    UT3 is 60-70% vehakal-based. I don't like vehakals. Never have, never will. I got good at ONS in UT2004 but I didn't like it in the same way I liked the on-foot gametypes. VCTF is the worst and most unfun gametype I've played ever. Warfare is worse than ONS due to the orb. So, for me, 60-70% of the game's total gameplay is null and void.

    Then there's the art. Yes, the maps look very nice (assuming you like having everything blown up and ruined), but I don't care. At all. Multiplayer games will never be about the art and immersion for me. If I want immersion I'll go play a single-player game with the graphics maxed and my speakers belting out 110-decibel tunes. Multiplayer is about the gameplay, the movement, the weapon balance, the tactics, and the strategies. The overcoming not only of the enemy's skill but of your own inadequacies and bad habits. And it's not just the "core" gameplay -- a good portion of any game's gameplay is inherent to the maps, and I firmly believe UT3's DM maps are mostly terrible in this vein.

    Yes, you can cram a bunch of people into any of the maps and mindlessly blow them up repeatedly, but that's not fun to me. I did that the first couple weeks and it got incredibly old very fast. DM doesn't have to be about mindless spam in overcrowded areas, but people seem to have forgotten that.

    There was a time when DM mattered. Apparently it doesn't anymore. I couldn't give less of a f**k about the latest vehakals. I wanted UT3 to be the next big DM game -- it certainly had the potential given that it had NO direct competition. I wanted UT3 to be what UT2004 couldn't be due to hitscan dominance and the shield gun. Yet Epic squandered yet another opportunity to do something cool and went for the lame bottom line, the normalized popularity curve, the ideology that precision, agility, prediction, and adeptness is less of a concern than the teamwork of a raptor-grapple flag cap.

    PS: I have a follow-up interview for the job I was interviewed about last week. Hopefully I won't have so much BuF time soon. :]
     
    Last edited: Feb 13, 2008
  20. RoninMastaFX

    RoninMastaFX Unreal/UT Vet from Day 1

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    All of your comments really changed my attitude. And I thank you. :)

    As posted from the first post of this thread:

    <rant>But imho, I completely agree with Sir_Brizz about the gamespy. It was ONE of the major key contributurs to UT3 failing. Another major one is little advertising (filefront advertising is not enough :lol:) of the game. There are lot's more stuff that made UT3 die a horrible, horrible death, but the one thign that will piss me off for the rest fo my life is how Mark Rein said "They are like our bread and butter". Bread and butter eh? :S I don't see any bread or butter on UT3 at all.</rant>

    Also, I'm a collector. For a series that I like best (UT being my # 1 fav series of all time), I have bought from stores (and on eBay) almost all the Unreal/ Unreeal Tournament series games that I can find. I have the following in my collection: the Unreal 1 original cd, RTNP, Unreal Gold, Totally Unreal (v1 and v2), Unreal Tournament, Unreal Tournament GOTY, Unreal Tournament 2003, Unreal Tournament 2004 ECE, Unreal Anthology, Unreal Tournament 3, Unreal Beta Soundtrack, Unreal Soundtrack, Unreal Tournament Soundtrack, Unreal Tournament 3 Soundtrack, and finally, Unreal 2.

    <rant>Anyway, yeah, that tells you how much I love the UT series. I've been playign since the freegin day Unreal 1 came out (and trust me, I remember the Unreal 1 scene - aka Epic Flameboards, remember? xD) I've sene the UT2003 scene (the amount of flaming and what not almost pushed me off my feet. But imho, chances 10/1 I will get flamed for this, but I LOVE the UT2003 in-game hud (that's the only thing I loved about UT2003, and no, I don't smoke anything, it just looks awesome :) ) ). Now fast foreward to 2007, everyone is excited about UT3's release, and when the Beta Demo starts......this is the result. I completely understand why the fans of epic are pissed, is because they haen't done this once, they haven't done this twice, but three times, and everyone is getting pissed off. I can tell you this, UT3 will never recover from this. Epic failed their promises, and that just annoys me. Imho, a second UT3.5 series might bring more palyers back, but some will have left the scene permantly, and those people I understand, for having to put up with this three times.</rant>

    Anyway, I like BuF and all it's members here wether you hate me or not (and yes, I really mean it 100%), but in my honest and greatest opinion, the UT series has compeltely ****ed itself up, and will never recover, but for the people who are willing to still play a game that has failed, a succesful series in the past, and slowly gotten from win to fail within a decade, those are the players that will make the Unreal series live on. :)

    Also, this is one of the 3 topic I have ever made that talked about UT3 in a negative way in any way, shape or form...anywhere on the internet. I love Epic Games with a passion too much to say hateful stuff about them. Epic Games=full of win and awesome. :) btw, UT3 is a decent game, it really is, but it lacks alot of gametypes, and what not, but like Aalexanderrr said, you guys made them rush, they just followed your orders. And it failed. I can compeltely understand why Epic is pissed! We rushed UT3, which was to be their masterpiece, and yet people still bitch and whien and complain, saying ut2004, or ut99 is a better game. And you wonder why... I shake my head. Epic Games, if you're reading this, if you ever create UT3.5, take your time. Ignore anyone who says they want the game rushed, due to poor graphics by 2010. UT3 was a game that was designed to last, and I understand. But tbh, next time, do me a great big favour. Ignore anyone and everyone who wants the game rushed. The more time you spend on it, the better it'll get. ;)
    That is all. :)
     
    Last edited: Feb 17, 2008

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