1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.
  2. Two Factor Authentication is now available on BeyondUnreal Forums. To configure it, visit your Profile and look for the "Two Step Verification" option on the left side. We can send codes via email (may be slower) or you can set up any TOTP Authenticator app on your phone (Authy, Google Authenticator, etc) to deliver codes. It is highly recommended that you configure this to keep your account safe.

Urban Map Design

Discussion in 'Infiltration Development' started by LifesBane(4Corners), Mar 18, 2000.

  1. LifesBane(4Corners)

    LifesBane(4Corners) Active Member

    Joined:
    Sep 27, 1999
    Messages:
    3,142
    Likes Received:
    0
    I am going to be stepping into the Urban design field soon, and I have a couple questions. 1st off, where do the mappers of great urban maps get their ideas? Do thye work from ideas that just pop into their mind, or do they mainly map from real life places? Also, with Urban map, do you need to use the 2d shape editor a lot? I would think no, as Urban maps mainly do not have curves, which is what the 2d shape editor is primarily for. Or, should there be curves/usage of the 2d shape editor. If anyone can answer these questions, it would be greatly appreciated.
    -LifesBane[4C]

    ------------------
    --==**LifesBane[4C]**==--
    ...life's falling away from me...
     
  2. Guest

    Guest Guest

    Glad to hear you're coming to the real world /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif You chould check out a small tut I wrote on mapping for the real world here . We also have a ton of real world textures at the site, available for download and finally a ton of good real world maps. Just click on my sig to get there.

    As for the 2D issue, the only thing I can say is how many curved surfaces do you see in real life? There are some, so feel free to use curved surfaces to enhance the real life feel of maps. Hope this helps...
    CC




    ------------------
    Want to be an Infiltrator? Get the goods at:
    http://www.planetunreal.com/realmaps/
     
  3. Guest

    Guest Guest

    Glad to hear you're coming to the real world /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif You chould check out a small tut I wrote on mapping for the real world here . We also have a ton of real world textures at the site, available for download and finally a ton of good real world maps. Just click on my sig to get there.

    As for the 2D issue, the only thing I can say is how many curved surfaces do you see in real life? There are some, so feel free to use curved surfaces to enhance the real life feel of maps. Hope this helps...
    CC




    ------------------
    Want to be an Infiltrator? Get the goods at:
    http://www.planetunreal.com/realmaps/
     
  4. Paralax

    Paralax New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 24, 2000
    Messages:
    52
    Likes Received:
    0
    The second map I made (first realworld) has taught me much. If you have an idea...pulled out of you head, if you will...do not hesitate to get some pictures of similar areas (my approach for my next map). This will help you to maintain scale, realism, and the correct mix of textures. I'm just a newbie, but I think this is sound advice.

    ------------------
    That would be me...gettin' fragged.
     
  5. Evil Joe

    Evil Joe I Will Kill You

    Joined:
    Feb 13, 2000
    Messages:
    264
    Likes Received:
    0
    Well there just aren't that many rl maps out there and of the ones out there only about 2% are even close to what they should be like. Basically you make like a real building. And the toughest part keep the poly count no higher then 200. Now take for instance DM-UtCargo... great looking map... 400 p-count on the deck of the ship = bad mapping (in terms of making a map for everyone out there) now my machine handles it fine but I'm packing alot of ram and hardware. Now I'm sure T-Ahlen when he makes AS-Panama will have a realistic boat with an acceptable p-count (at least I hope)... now not all of T-Ahlens maps are realistic either. For Rl we are going to see a merger between 3-d walkthroughs and fps maps. That is what I'm striving for in my maps (all with a p-count of at least less then 250, 200 if at all possible)

    Now this is important over 250 might as well just be a walk through and might I sugest just using max or some other application. Take that map based on Dusk till Dawn. It looks great but it doesn't play so well. If it can't play what is the point. yeah some poeple on some high end machines can play it... but you might as well keep those maps to yourself. Not to knock the guys that map at 450 poly's I can run it and I enjoy them but you have to map for the average (well you don't have too but if you want to map for the community then map for the community; know what I mean?)

    2-d shape editor, imports from max, however you can make the brushes make them. Textures are the key though. Right now we have a serious shortage of good textures for RL mapping. Don't let these other guys steer you wrong (not speaking of coffey or Paralaxx, decent advice there).
     
  6. bastard_o

    bastard_o Lead Designer

    Joined:
    Aug 20, 1999
    Messages:
    1,476
    Likes Received:
    0
    Excellent advise NZero... sound.... if you mappers follow all the above we will see some cool playable maps very soon. /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

    I can only add... do drawings, plan, plan plan the strategy of the level even before touching the editor, these things can't be rushed... I makes me laugh when people think they can knock out a good level of good size and quality in less than a week of evenings or less.

    I have a full-time job so evenings and errrr early mornings is the only time available to me.

    Sadly I must admit that each of my levels to date has taken well over two weeks of evenings....

    Bastard'O
     
  7. Guest

    Guest Guest

    You have to give Angelheart props though, he has said that DM-DuskToDawn was an attempt at getting as close to the movie as possible, and he made it, understanding that it wouldnt be playable for most people. I like it because there are a zillion textures in there that are great and we wouldnt have without it.

    I agree that CargoUT is slow, but hes an author that doesnt compromise, makes what he wants, and I respect him for it. Hes also made some very fun, playable levels, like Matrixed, CTF-UrbanReality.

    I agree if you do want to make PLAYABLE levels then you need to be in the 200 poly range, and I think thats what most people are going for not the'levels as works of art' that John goes for sometimes.
    CC

    ------------------
    Want to be an Infiltrator? Get the goods at:
    http://www.planetunreal.com/realmaps/
     
  8. Guest

    Guest Guest

    You have to give Angelheart props though, he has said that DM-DuskToDawn was an attempt at getting as close to the movie as possible, and he made it, understanding that it wouldnt be playable for most people. I like it because there are a zillion textures in there that are great and we wouldnt have without it.

    I agree that CargoUT is slow, but hes an author that doesnt compromise, makes what he wants, and I respect him for it. Hes also made some very fun, playable levels, like Matrixed, CTF-UrbanReality.

    I agree if you do want to make PLAYABLE levels then you need to be in the 200 poly range, and I think thats what most people are going for not the'levels as works of art' that John goes for sometimes.
    CC

    ------------------
    Want to be an Infiltrator? Get the goods at:
    http://www.planetunreal.com/realmaps/
     
  9. Evil Joe

    Evil Joe I Will Kill You

    Joined:
    Feb 13, 2000
    Messages:
    264
    Likes Received:
    0
    My intention was not to knock anybody I have high poly maps but I don't release them I call them my "personal collection" maps. For releases to the public though I try to go for 200 polies. Although I think for alot of RL maps 250 might be the max, since it sometimes is hard. I did not intend to insult anyone with my post I was just using T. Ahlen and the Dusk to Dawn map as good examples. All of T. Ahlen's maps (except twin towers) and Anglehearts two latest releases are still on my hardrive, which is about the best props I could give any mapper.

    As for the RL scene.

    All of my maps that I do fall into that catergory... I simply don't map in any other form. It doesn't interest me to do abstracts or spaceships. So I like to be vocal in the RL mapping community. I intend to release an inf based map called Cliffhouse here eventuality and another map based on a medival church.
     
  10. RegularX

    RegularX Master of Dagoth Lies

    Joined:
    Feb 2, 2000
    Messages:
    1,215
    Likes Received:
    0
    Well, I cheated for my first map /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif. I recreated the office I work at. Once I get a windows box running again (don't even ask), I'll probably start on another one of a place I know fairly well (don't worry, folks, it ain't my apartment, I wouldn't subject anyone to DMing in my 1 bedroom pad ... or to see my mess /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif ).

    So if I have to make a suggestion, it would be, if you're stuck: start thinking about the real world you spend all your non-UT time in /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif. What parts might make a fun map?
     
  11. Guest

    Guest Guest

    Dont worry N50, I didnt think that you were knocking him down, he just takes a lot of flak for his maps sometimes (and at times rightfully so, others not) and I just wanted to point out that low poly's are not always his intention, thats all. /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

    ------------------
    Want to be an Infiltrator? Get the goods at:
    http://www.planetunreal.com/realmaps/
     
  12. Guest

    Guest Guest

    Dont worry N50, I didnt think that you were knocking him down, he just takes a lot of flak for his maps sometimes (and at times rightfully so, others not) and I just wanted to point out that low poly's are not always his intention, thats all. /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

    ------------------
    Want to be an Infiltrator? Get the goods at:
    http://www.planetunreal.com/realmaps/
     
  13. Chand

    Chand New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 16, 2000
    Messages:
    80
    Likes Received:
    0
    Good comments... yup.

    Unrelated note : I've been 'hired' by my friends here to make a map for our incoming INF lan party...so the bastards chose the local mall.

    I've been there all day (from 12 to 6 at least) sketching the 3 level monster, special geometry, location of the shops, etc...

    They can NEVER tell me I don't do research /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

    But seriously, I noted today while sketching and it's not a novel concept by any means... but whenever your project 'copies' (so to speak) a real location, what you lose in originality you gain in gameplay... generally you don't have to worry about the flow of the map 'cos the structure you're copying has been 'flow-proofed' already by an architect or group of architects. The flow is almost guaranteed...at least geometry-wise... item placement is another story but hey, that's the talent of the mapper.

    My $0.02

    ------------------
    This is your brain...
    THIS IS YOUR BRAIN ON INF... (bold /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif)
     
  14. Evil Joe

    Evil Joe I Will Kill You

    Joined:
    Feb 13, 2000
    Messages:
    264
    Likes Received:
    0
    Hehe, I'm not a big fan of doing exact copies... I'm a civil engineering student with and emphasis in structures and I plan on getting a masters in architecture. I love architecture, and perhaps my great love of ued is that its so easy to visualize design in. Well that being said I like to develop my own forms of architecture and thus design my own buildings. Although architects do follow trends and tend to use themes used by past architects and even their contemporaries.

    Oh and if you want to know what your maps should look like (although I wonder at the p-count [​IMG] ) check out the screen of Angelheart's map at Realmaps. Hats off.

    [This message has been edited by Naughty5zero (edited 03-21-2000).]
     
  15. Akuma

    Akuma Deacon Massif

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2000
    Messages:
    929
    Likes Received:
    0
    200 polys is still excessive. Try to stick to 170 polys / 250 nodes or below if you want the average user to be able to enjoy your maps. Use 'stat global' to measure you occlusion times (what the engine is drawing that isn't in view) - these should be kept at about 5-6 if possible. Anything over 10 is not on.

    The most basic of 'real' maps make for easier low poly mapping because you don't need to put in lots of 1337 curved trim detail. It's mostly in the lighting & texturing.

    However, if you wanna make something that plays like Tempest & looks like Decay then you're gonna need some mad skillz to keep the poly count under 170
     
  16. hunchback

    hunchback New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 25, 2000
    Messages:
    150
    Likes Received:
    0
    Heh, I remember how back when Unreal came out almost two years ago, a visible polygon count of 100 was considered the absolute maximum for any area where combat was going to take place. I actually haven't upgraded my computer (P2-300, Voodoo2, 128MB) at all since then and I assume that the same goes for a lot of other people, so I agree that a count of 200 polygons is definitely too much. I found the maps that came with the original Unreal to be nicer-looking than the majority of higher-polygon user-made levels that I've seen, so it's certainly possible to make something that looks nice without straining the user's computer. /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
     
  17. Guest

    Guest Guest

    I think its more of an issue of balancing gameplay with poly count. A main problem is that stock UT maps, aside from not being realistic, dont have covering objects, boxes, rocks etc, so that automatically raises the p-count. A good INF map (for me) = good covering objects, much like real life. Its a hard balance thats for sure...
    CC

    ------------------
    Want to be an Infiltrator? Get the goods at:
    http://www.planetunreal.com/realmaps/
     
  18. Guest

    Guest Guest

    I think its more of an issue of balancing gameplay with poly count. A main problem is that stock UT maps, aside from not being realistic, dont have covering objects, boxes, rocks etc, so that automatically raises the p-count. A good INF map (for me) = good covering objects, much like real life. Its a hard balance thats for sure...
    CC

    ------------------
    Want to be an Infiltrator? Get the goods at:
    http://www.planetunreal.com/realmaps/
     
  19. Evil Joe

    Evil Joe I Will Kill You

    Joined:
    Feb 13, 2000
    Messages:
    264
    Likes Received:
    0
    from your system stats if you have trouble running a 200 poly map with average texture sizes and what not something major is wrong. Computers have changed alot in two years... 200 is not excessive and is extremely hard not to go near too. Don't even mention any of the packaged maps cause like cc said they aren't realistic in the least.

    Seconly find one friggin map that is RL and any good for that matter that doesn't go above 170, good luck cuase I haven't found one yet.

    Look at all of angelheart's maps they have p-counts that max at about 450 or sometimes higher.

    The max polies is going to do nothing but go up over the years, get a life, or better yet a better computer if you want to keep up (I know it sucks but hey its the future!)

    Lastly some good comments from @kuma although a little behind in the times. No 200 should be the new max. 100 is a joke, if you can't run over 100 you can't very well play the UT packaged maps so what are you talking about... they are maxed at 150. Straight from Epics mouth.
     
  20. hunchback

    hunchback New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 25, 2000
    Messages:
    150
    Likes Received:
    0
    Naughty5zero:

    I only have problems with areas with 200 visible polygons when a couple of other players are fighting onscreen. Granted, I'm usually playing botmatches, so I'm not sure how much of that is just A.I. calculations. But, I see your point (and I'm about to upgrade to an Athlon in a few weeks).

    I thought coffeycan was saying that the stock UT maps have _higher_ polygon counts because of their lack of realistic covering objects, though, not the other way around. I agree that to make a really detailed, realistic area, you need to put in a lot of small objects (or make a lot of custom textures), but I think mappers should still sacrifice detail in large, open areas for playability, and just go all-out in smaller rooms, where there won't be too many meshes onscreen.

    I also agree that sticking to a maximum of 100 polys isn't possible all of the time, but it's a good thing to aim for, and I still think that 200 or higher is just too much for an area where there will be a lot of fighting.

    Oh, and I haven't played any of angelheart's maps yet; I've heard they look really nice, but I'm too afraid of what they may do to my poor little computer. /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
     

Share This Page