unrealistic loadout => less points for kills/objectives ...

[JaFO]

Altough a perfect bulk-system might mean someone with a multi-weapon loadout is very slow, the lack of speed might not be enough punishment for them.

But what if using an "unrealistic" loadout meant that you scored less 'points' ?

The only real problem is thinking of what makes a loadout realistic.

"unrealistic" combo's :
- M203 + ACOG on a M16 (this is easy, because it from what I've read on these forums this is impossible to do this in real life)

- pistol or knife only : is this realistic or stupid ?
If you want to use the static defenses (like the M2HB) in a map, then only having a pistol/knife makes sense. But I think that a real soldier wouldn't want to rely on just a knife/pistol if he could have other weapons ...

- one weapon : realistic or stupid ?
probably realistic, as I doubt anyone would want to rely on just the HK-69.

- more than 2 weapons (unrealistic without doubt)
(grenades & knifes don't count as 'weapons' as such)

- two weapons :
This is difficult, because you've got to look at the weapons used.
M16 + SIG 551 => unrealistic (weapons are the same 'class'/type)
(Sniper)rifle + pistol => realistic
submachinegun + pistol => realistic ?
Sniperrifle + submachinegun => realistic ? if it is a something like a mini-uzi probably ...
HK69 + Sniperrifle => unrealistic ? probably because you're trying to do two very different things.
What makes a good & realistic combo if you've got an HK-69 ?

 

[the vrrc]

HK 69, about 10 shells (we don't have that much, but stick with me) the MP5K PDW thing with the 15 round mag (or whichever one has that.) That is realistic, I guess.

 

[yurch]

For a map with reinforcements, the bulk could be a determinant of how long you have to wait until spawning.

 

[asmodeus]

- pistol or knife only : is this realistic or stupid ?

I think a pistol is what is issued to officers

 

[JaFO]

if 1 pistol loadout = officer => they should act like one ...

Altough with more than 1 officer on a team you're asking for trouble if you do

// --
As for bulk = 'respawn'-time : that wouldn't be fair to ppl with a high bulk weapon (such as the machinegun).
Maybe the amount of weapons/items determines the respawn-time ? As you would need 'extra' time to make sure your weapons were ok.

 

[spm1138]

SMG users do carry pistols. The idea being in CQB, you are more likely to need a back-up.

I like this bulk - points thing.

It would also get people thinking about just how much firepower they needed to get the job done.

1 weapon wise - Once the speed/bulk curve is fixed, I don't care if people play with pistol only loadouts. The SOCOM was designed as an offensive handgun (OHWS) and I don't see why people shouldn't get to use it as such (that will make more sense in EAS).

 

[RAZZ]

First you gotta find a better definiton of unrealistic loadout.
high bulk = low points, isint fair.
the ammo ammounts allowed right now are great for cqb, but piddly compared to what troops on open turf carry.
larger maps mean bulking up with extra rounds and nades, then theres the eventual body armor which Im sure will come at a price.
machine gunnners wont like it, and some smg toting snipers will have objections.

afaik its not how many weapons you have, its how you use those weapons.
right now, long range weapons are being used cqb. backups are being used as main. and cause a few guys used nades cqb to blow themselves up, the rest of us have to suffer with 2 reloads for all eternity.

then theres a side problem. some folks really dont care about their point totals as long as their targets keep dying.
I dont see this as a real deterrant.

 

[yurch]

Originally posted by A_Rimmerlister
As for bulk = 'respawn'-time : that wouldn't be fair to ppl with a high bulk weapon (such as the machinegun).

It wouldn't be fair to the guys who carry robar around as a sidearm. A SAW gunner is valuable to the squad, and I don't see the problem with delaying him a bit, seeing as a smart team would make sure to wait for him, thus delaying thier progress for a little more firepower.
On the other hand, if a squad can pack light, (one gun each) you can be out the door quick without the wait.
Playing time is the most important thing to a player right now. That, and the ability to kill stuff. Thats the only reason why they see dying as bad. They will do anything to squeeze every last drop of play out they can.

 

[LoTekK]

The SOCOM was designed as an offensive handgun (OHWS)

bah... it's a catchy tagline... point out to me anyone who'd go into combat with just a socom and i'll show you... umm... hell, i dunno... i don't buy it...

 

[JaFO]

Originally posted by RAZZ
First you gotta find a better definiton of unrealistic loadout.
high bulk = low points, isint fair.

That's why I'd like to see a system that says 'unrealistic loadout' = low points.
As I said in my first post : determining *exactly* what is an unrealistic loadout is the biggest problem for this system.
The point/realisme-rating would be relatively easy :
- realistic loadout : 100% of points scored
- realistic under some circumstances : 80% of points scored
- unrealistic : 50% of points scored

the ammo ammounts allowed right now are great for cqb, but piddly compared to what troops on open turf carry.

IRL you don't know how many troops you're facing (we do, since a 32 player server => max. 16 enemies average).
This makes it possible to rely on a 2 magazines for your primary weapon, while real soldiers probably take as much as they can carry.

...
afaik its not how many weapons you have, its how you use those weapons.
right now, long range weapons are being used cqb. backups are being used as main. and cause a few guys used nades cqb to blow themselves up, the rest of us have to suffer with 2 reloads for all eternity.

It either enhances teamwork (as you'd need to rely on your team for CQB or long range firepower) or it makes ppl use their weapons in unrealistic situations (the HK-69 point-blank kill being the example). Since there is little teamwork on public servers it's probably going to be the latter there

In the end it's going to be a choice between two evils :
-A- multi-weapon/unrealistic loadouts/walking armory
or
-B- single weapon/realistic loadouts/unrealistic use

then theres a side problem. some folks really dont care about their point totals as long as their targets keep dying.
I dont see this as a real deterrant.

you've got a point there, altough there is not going to be any kind of rule to prevent that.
And then there's the problem of ppl thinking they are good *because* despite these restrictions they manage to have a high score ...

 

[FiringAimlessly]

This sounds good in principle, but I really don't see the point in penalizing someone who carries less than he should, but plays better than with a "normal" loadout... sure, it's not completely plausible, but why force someone to carry dead weight?

 

[RAZZ]

IF you were a terrorist trying to take over that map, I would understand it more.

but a trained person knows that an smg is better than a sidearm. and would object highly if he was forced to use just a handgun.
the choice should be between ar, smg, and rifle for application to that situation. not by how fast you think you can run.

"an offencive handgun"... I really dont understand that term
then again, Im not a socom fan.
I wouldent opt to use a toy when the enemy has real guns pointed at me.
them with a range of 400 meters, me with a range of 50
me trying to put a bullet between their eyes, them with the ability to punch holes in my vest.
dosent make sense.

when the body armor gets in and running is fixed, I think folks will come to understand that.
irl, guns jam. thats usualy why you have the sidearm in the first place.

about the ammo loadouts... you are right on the money there.
I dunno of any solution to that untill someone figures out how to put 100 folks in the same game.
maybe forcing the surviving players to carry the same ammo count from round to round. or maybe randomly popping in bots to keep you on your toes.

 

[JaFO]

Originally posted by RAZZ
...
about the ammo loadouts... you are right on the money there.
I dunno of any solution to that untill someone figures out how to put 100 folks in the same game.
maybe forcing the surviving players to carry the same ammo count from round to round. or maybe randomly popping in bots to keep you on your toes.

Hmm, how about replacing 'dead' players with bots with less health & a simple loadout ? Sort of like 'regular troops' replacing the 'specialists' ...

As long as there were 'players' alive, the dead bots would be replaced with fresh ones.
That could have the same kind of effect.

 

[darth_armz]

Lowering points for unrealistic loadouts? nope. nuh-uh. nay. non. nada. nyet. Why? well three things:

1. What if someone likes having a lot of weapons? My personal loadout is a Berreta M9, HK MP5/40A3, Arsenal AKSMU, FAMAS G2, and I might add the FN P90. Oh boy I have two SMG's and maybe a third one. I have the AKMSU for it's power and the MP5 for its accuracy. I like all those weapons and I don't like the idea of being penalized for carrying all of them

2. You have just a knife. Now the system is out to get you just because you don't have any guns. How fair is that? Maybe you want to see how many guys you can take out w/ knife before you die and to earn bragging rights (not to mention humiliating the people who you kill w/ knife)

3. This is an "extreme realism" mod. If it attacks you for having too many weapons or have a shortage, than that crosses the line. It goes from extreme realism to extremely ridiculous realism. The mod is known as Infiltration. Now what weapon comes to mind when infiltrating some place? A silenced pistol and stealth and that's it. So now you are being penalized for sneaking around, pretending to be James Bond. Also for having a lot of weapons, which is a lot of fun.

so don't add that to the mod ok?

 

[asmodeus]

Originally posted by darth_armz
My personal loadout is a Berreta M9, HK MP5/40A3, Arsenal AKSMU, FAMAS G2, and I might add the FN P90.

I really hope you are kidding here

 

[RAZZ]

if you want 100% realism, have someone else assign you your weapons when you install the game, and never give you the option to change em

Theres nothing wrong with the loadouts system really. when running and a few other things are fixed, it will fall back into line.


also, any score system in place will have to recalculate values mid game, or face team players taking shortcuts.

Back during my stint in Heavy Gear2, we had a problem with that.

ex of a lame shortcut:
on a cheating team, one guy would play the mule and pack it on while everyone else took no weapons at all.
two seconds into the game, the mule drops his excess weapons for his teammates. they then unleash fantastic firepower AND get a points bonus for being "unarmed".

stuff like that annoys me.
you should reward players for thinking "within the box", not for finding ways to beat the system.

 

[JaFO]

Originally posted by darth_armz
Lowering points for unrealistic loadouts? nope. nuh-uh. nay. non. nada. nyet. Why? well three things:

1. What if someone likes having a lot of weapons? My personal loadout is a Berreta M9, HK MP5/40A3, Arsenal AKSMU, FAMAS G2, and I might add the FN P90. Oh boy I have two SMG's and maybe a third one. I have the AKMSU for it's power and the MP5 for its accuracy. I like all those weapons and I don't like the idea of being penalized for carrying all of them

a) Can you say "overkill" ?
In all my loadouts I have at best a primary weapon & pistol.
I find that in 90% of the games I didn't even touch the pistol ...
This is not UT or Quake where you're supposed to be able to carry a shitload of weapons & ammo without any problems.

b) This is supposed to be a realistic game: try to play it that way.
So try to choose your loadout a bit more like a real soldier/mercenary would : take what you need and no more. Learn to adjust your tactics to a limited loadout instead of trying to be a jack-of-all-trades.
Let your teammates handle the sniper-role if you don't have a sniperrifle. Ask a teammate to cover your back, while you use your sniperrifle.

2. You have just a knife. Now the system is out to get you just because you don't have any guns. How fair is that? Maybe you want to see how many guys you can take out w/ knife before you die and to earn bragging rights (not to mention humiliating the people who you kill w/ knife)

So ? You still will have your 'bragging rights', you might not be able to end at the top of your team. But then again :
this is a *team* game. What you do as an individual doesn't mean a damn if your team loses because of your actions.

3. This is an "extreme realism" mod. If it attacks you for having too many weapons or have a shortage, than that crosses the line. It goes from extreme realism to extremely ridiculous realism. The mod is known as Infiltration. Now what weapon comes to mind when infiltrating some place? A silenced pistol and stealth and that's it. So now you are being penalized for sneaking around, pretending to be James Bond.

Why'd you think I think the pistol/knife only loadouts can be realistic ?

Also for having a lot of weapons, which is a lot of fun.

for you ...
Try Inf-lite if you want to be able to continue to do that.

so don't add that to the mod ok?

This is a suggestion, I don't have the power to add anything to this mod other than trying to suggest certain things.
The developers will decide if, when and how certain things are going to be done.

// RAZZ :
anti 'mule'-tactic :
Score would have to be calculated at 'run-time', anything else would lead to the exact same 'cheats' as you suggested.
I'd even suggest using both your starting loadout as well as your current loadout as a means of scoring. This would penalize both the mule (because he 'dropped' weapons) and the 'unarmed' player (because he used 'more' weapons). Altough there is the problem that a player using the minimi might want to have his teammates carry additional ammo for him.

 

[LoTekK]

Originally posted by darth_armz
1. What if someone likes having a lot of weapons? My personal loadout is a Berreta M9, HK MP5/40A3, Arsenal AKSMU, FAMAS G2, and I might add the FN P90. Oh boy I have two SMG's and maybe a third one. I have the AKMSU for it's power and the MP5 for its accuracy. I like all those weapons and I don't like the idea of being penalized for carrying all of them

sweet jeezus, this guy's bragging publicly about this kind of loadout???
:tdown:

 

[The_Fur]

execution at dawn tomorrow

 

[JaFO]

Originally posted by The_Fur
execution at dawn tomorrow

Why wait until dawn ?