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Turn THAT Frown; UPSIDE DOWN!

Discussion in 'General Infiltration Discussion' started by OpFor, Jul 1, 2001.

  1. OpFor

    OpFor Feeling suicide, thats O.K.

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    This psot contains a rant about the so called "Limitations" of the UT engine, concerning INF.

    For those of you people who think " It's impossible the have realistic outdoor maps" or "I smell an UT limitation" Stop now! Have you thought of the fact that U2, which has the best outdoor landscapes I've seen so far, is basicly, a modified version of UT, and Unreal? It's the same engine, just tweaked! So, if you think about it, the team just has to hack the engine a bit, and voila! U2 landscapes, and other factors that where so called "limitations" You see, the team ISN'T the one pushing the envolpoe the most [no offense, or complaint] If the team making U2 can do it, with a pre UNREAL [the old ugly, slow game of the series] BETA code, what do you think the team can do with the significantly more advanced [in a scence] engine!:) :cool:
     
  2. })FA|Snake

    })FA|Snake New Member

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    its callled a "license" and its required to access the engine code
     
  3. Zundfolge

    Zundfolge New Member

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    As I understand it there are basically 3 limitations to the Infiltration teem when it comes to developement of their mod.

    The first two are obvious...
    1. Limits of the engine.
    2. Limits of their own abilities.

    but then you have...
    3. Limits to what they are allowed to do by the UT end user license agreement.

    I don't believe they are allowed to tamper with the engine itself, this is why they are looking for a publisher that will pay for the license of the Unreal engine (or one of the modified versions...I believe the Unreal Warfare version is what they want to use).



    then again, I could be wrong :)
    EDIT: While I was typing all that, Snake13 comes in and just steals my thunder :p
     
  4. poaw

    poaw You used to sleep easy at night.

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    No offense to Beppo or the rest of the team, but there is no way they can compare to an office full of people working full time just coding an engine.

    Even if Beppo could write code twice as fast and 5 times as tight, he still wouldn't be able to do what they did in the same amount of time, because he's one man doing this as a hobby.

    But Infiltration is still great.
     
  5. OpFor

    OpFor Feeling suicide, thats O.K.

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    exactly, I'm just saying, that they COULD, and that their are no real limitations, like some people think.
     
  6. Draco-1

    Draco-1 I've been to hell, and I spell it DMV.

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    I really don't think the difference between UT and U2 are a few engine "tweaks" That's some serious work there.
     
  7. funkstylz

    funkstylz I CLEAN TEH LATRINE

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    LOL! They are far from minor modifications. We wish!
     
  8. Jon Merriman

    Jon Merriman New Member

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    Yup... you're right it's just a small, 30,000 or so LOC tweak done by this two-bit operation called Legend Entertainment. Any dumbass C++ programmer could do it. Why shouldn't the Infiltration team?
     
  9. JaFO

    JaFO bugs are features too ...

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    OpFor :
    I don't think you know what programming is about, eh ?

    1) Just because the changes are invisible to the users, it does not mean those changes are 'minor'.
    Example :
    Something as simple as sorting an array of numbers can be done in a number of different ways. Each with their own advantages & disadvantages, but each not even remotely the same code-wise.
    The algoritmes are not just 'minor' tweaks of each other ...
    Just by replacing that part of the code you can get a real increase in speed, but only the ignorant users think that you only 'tweaked' the code ...

    Considering the fact that the number of polygons they can display in the next build is so much higher, they've probably completely rewritten that part of the engine.
    Tweaking code *never* gives you that much an advantage, unless there were some real inefficient parts in the code.

    I think they've mentioned in more than a few interviews that part of the problems with the unreal-engine was the fact that the Glide- & Direct3D-API's are so different from each other that what is fast & efficient for one is not fast for the other ...
    Now that Glide is finally dead, they can change that part of the code.

    2) License-limitations : the team doesn't have the full license like Legend has. So even if they do know what to fix, they can't ...
    The core-routines of the unreal-engine are not written in Uscript, but in C(++). Writing that part has taken a few full-time programmers several years ...

    3) time/manpower :
    Comparing the job a dozen fulltime programmers can do with a few part-time programmers is unfair to say the least.

    Just take a look at Duke Nukem Forever, Rune, Deus Ex, Undying, or any other Unreal-engine game.
    That really shows what full-time programmers can do with the current Unreal-engine *if* they have the license for the sourcecode ...
    You can never do that kind of stuff without the full license.

    Sure, the team could do all the stuff unreal2 can do now, if you don't mind waiting a few decades or so ...
     
  10. asmodeus

    asmodeus DB addict

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    Hell, even *I* could tweak the Unreal into U2!
     
  11. RogueLeader

    RogueLeader Tama-chan says, "aurf aurf aurf!"

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    I've seen better landscapes than U2's in engines that are already out.
     
  12. })FA|Snake

    })FA|Snake New Member

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    That's what you get for writing a novel :D
     
  13. MoNDoGuY

    MoNDoGuY Groin grabbingly good!

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    A game like U2 will require a heavy duty computer. Something with the likes of a GeForce 3 to handle all the polygons and cool affects. But I don't have that problem :)
     
  14. funkstylz

    funkstylz I CLEAN TEH LATRINE

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    Forgive me saying this, but I don't think you have. Are you basing all of this on screenshots...if so you shouldn't. Or have you somehow got a pre-release copy of the engine? If you do, then I wanna know what game your talking about here?

    Also, Epic have a great history or providing support for older systems, so I wouldn't be so quick to jump the gun on it needing a supercomputer. Also, after reading up on how the terrain in U2 is built, I believe it'll be fine on older (or current) systems. I urge to have a read at the Unrealed2 tutorial on this stuff. It basically states that the terrain is a highly tweakable mesh...not anything like we're doing currently.
     
  15. RogueLeader

    RogueLeader Tama-chan says, "aurf aurf aurf!"

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    I'm comparing the images I have seen of Unreal 2's terrain to some terrain maps I've seen people developing for Serious Sam. I've seen maps people are making that are miles upon miles wide. When you look off into the distance you can see perfectly round snow covered mountain peaks miles away, and even run to them. Think of the Unreal 2 Tech Demo, when they fly around that grassy terrain map. Except unlike in Unreal 2, those mountains in the distance arn't a skybox, they are actually there.

    [​IMG]

    Just look at that example; and that is a very small scale map, and not a very high res terrain entity. I've seen some third party maps in production that make this look like Commander Keen.

    I'm not saying U2's terrain engine is bad. Far from it. But it isn't the best.
     
  16. funkstylz

    funkstylz I CLEAN TEH LATRINE

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    Wow...those ARE very pretty :D

    I still have this feeling however that U2 will top that.

    I guess we'll see soon enough
     
  17. SoSilencer

    SoSilencer Harry Goz (1932 - 2003)

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    No offense to anyone out there but...

    Most of the time when people talk about stuff this engine cannot do they simply assume it is impossible because they don't know how to do it.

    Bastard O's maps are a great example. Although they are all good maps anyone who thinks those are the best this engine can do is a fool. They personally don't know how to make any better so they assume that is the best.

    Click here for the image, too big to attach to post.

    Sorry about Photoshop messing with the colors :( Anyways, although that's an early version the terrain is smooth and there are about 950 trees (no foilage in this version). There isn't a spot on the map that drops below 35fps on an Athlon 700 w/V3 2K PCI. Inside the forest I get 55fps, even after I added the canopy and ground foilage. To give you a sense of scale the red builder brush is 112x72, the same size as your standard INF door. I can easily remove the trees and increase the size of the map from 8192x8192 to 24576x24576 and have smooth rolling hills that run just as good.

    As much as people want you to believe that something is "impossible" in mapping don't believe them. It is simply a matter of coming up with the correct theories and concepts and having the ability to implement them, and of course having the patience to mess around for a month before you find something that will work.
     
  18. SoSilencer

    SoSilencer Harry Goz (1932 - 2003)

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    Oh, and that other shot with the mountains. That could be done in UT too as long as you plan the layout and style of the map correctly.
     
  19. Jon Merriman

    Jon Merriman New Member

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    There's nothing that says you can't put 50,000 polygons in a map for engine 438. It's not practical but we're not debating practicality are we?
     
    Last edited: Jul 3, 2001
  20. funkstylz

    funkstylz I CLEAN TEH LATRINE

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    To recreate those pics dude, you'd be pushing ludicrous FPS drops. There IS a limitation on what can be done with the engine yet, but NO we haven't reached it.

    P.S.- That image link didn't work...got a tripod page.
     

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