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Tim Sweeney: F2P The Future Of Gaming

Discussion in 'News & Articles' started by hal, Jun 29, 2012.

  1. hal

    hal Dictator Staff Member

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    I've seen these articles about "Epic's most profitable game... Infinity Blade" floating about over the last couple of days and, to be honest with you, I wasn't going to post them... because they irritated me. I generally hate any game that I can't play (admittedly due to my own lack of initiative to secure the proper platforms). Regardless, I'm posting a few peripheral articles now, mostly because they were sent in by some very good friends, but also because I now have an opinion I can express:

    I desperately hope Tim's wrong.

    Gamasutra did a great job recapping Tim Sweeney's keynote at GDC Taipei in which he extolled the virtues of Unreal Engine 4 as any good parent would do. But more importantly, he laid out the road map he thought most developers would follow in the future... free-to-play.

    That makes me crazy mostly because I happen to agree with Tim. I want to buy a game once. But also because my own experience with F2P has been that it's mostly Pay-to-Win. And most of them are horrible. Give me a complete indie game just about any day of the week. Forbes has a nice opinion piece expressing similar sentiments.
     
  2. Kyllian

    Kyllian if (Driver == Bot.Pawn); bGTFO=True;

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    Yea, F2P is still a tricky system, go too far in one direction and you won't make money, go too far the other way and you risk P2W territory

    HiRez is kinda tettering on the edge by letting people decide between using XP or Gold to buy weapons
    Not entirely sure where Uber is sitting with SMNC. Things that affect gameplay(Endos/Products) are CombatCredit only, Pros are CC or Cash and cosmetic items are Cash only
     
  3. moonflyer

    moonflyer New Member

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    I hate P2W. I don't like combat credits in a degree, as it always reminds me of playing like a farmer.

    I think the actual opportunity here is the new platforms (and new ways to access games). F2P or not, it does not really matter, as a game with wonderful gameplay and cool visual, and being easy to access, plus good promos, is always guaranteed to be sucessful.
     
  4. r1esG0

    r1esG0 Unreal Engine Padawan

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    the problem here it seems to be that Tim sweneey (and also Cevat yerli, becasuse everithing is goin out his mouth lately) both have traveled to Asia, and they have seen how much profitable this market is. (the f2p market) And the massive succes it have has there.


    Then, they have imagined that this, is the future. They have analized the asian market, and they are figuring, or wanting, that what has succeed there, is going to succeed here. Because, as companies leaders, they have to analize data, and try to go on a direction to make profits. And they have seen that market has succeed so well in asia, that thinks this going to be the same.


    Basically, the asian market is the premonition of what is going to happen here. And that what has happened there should be used as an example to anticipate, and make moves here. Anticipating the market is the way to make profits. Also, in Asia this is so implemented, that the old model of pay per buy (the game) is unrecoverable.


    The logic behind this is simple. If millions of players liked this in asia, how is this not going to like millions of players in america/europe? What like millions, it is supposed to be good.



    Well, I will tell you something.
    The whole Asia loves to eat rice, and i dont love to eat rice. Its just another dish for me.
    A way of thinking in other countries, is not the way of thinking in my country.

    In korea, for example, lots of people go to arcade, in europe/america, arcade are dead.

    So this, and the rice example should give them a touch of attention.

    WHat happens with fp2 model, is that In Asia, it seems they have fallen, everybody in the trap the f2p game has. Install the game for free. Get adicted to it for trying it. Then pay for win, if you want to purchase the better weapons.


    In europe/america, this is just not being applied. In america and europe, we want a good game. Its not matter if the game is free or not. We will buy the game if is good. We wont play the game if is bad, even if is free. That simple.


    Lets say we have a free to play game. Lets say...let me think... Team fortress 2...Its free. I try it. Its bad. I dont like it... And i enter the game, just to see other players winning me, just for have payed better wapons. After years of trainning on have good skill in fps, others players just win to me because of UNBALANCED POWER, that money has impossed. Well, this is not free to play. Is free to fraud.

    Then i dont matter is free to play. I sent this game to trash, and i pay 60 bucks directly on Gears of war 3, which i like most, and has balanced play for wveryone.

    What would have happened if gears of wars would have been given to me freely, and then i would have been cheated by unbalanced mp weapons, impossing me to pay for win?. I should have been tented to sent the game to trash, or maybe i should have been tented to waste money on the better weapons? This is the real question.

    But i warn you. After the fail of Team fortress, i am almost skipping any f2p title. I dont even want to hear about them. The unbalance made me feel so bad, taht I dont even install them. Wow, hawken, age of conan, star wars... i dont even want to try them, and im just waiting for that new aliens game taht will come in january.

    So the question is, if here in europe, people is going to be cheated by the whole fraud the free to play game is, as millions of players have been in asia, or if we are going to be clever.


    At last, i dont mind. What will succed at last is that the game itself is good or not. A bad, unbalanced, free game, is not going to provoke me to pay for winn. And i expect others to be as clever as me... maybe i am expecting too much.
     
    Last edited: Jun 30, 2012
  5. ambershee

    ambershee Nimbusfish Rawks

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    I should point out that Infinity Blade isn't free to play, and the articles are complete junk anyway; nothing but talking out of their arses, likely to cover Fortnite being a tacky F2P (P2W) game.

    Free to play will never replace the singleplayer experience, which I'm sure a large proportion of gamers enjoy, potentially the majority.
     
    Last edited: Jun 30, 2012
  6. Bgood

    Bgood New Member

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    Pretty much sums it up.
     
  7. Firefly

    Firefly United Kingdom is not a country.

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    Make sure you vote with your money.
     
  8. Wail of Suicide

    Wail of Suicide Member

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    I'm happy to pay for games that I enjoy and which I don't put undue burdens on me (e.g. DRM other than Steam, etc).

    I've played a couple Free to Play titles too, but I won't spend any money on a game that I feel is trying to rip me off. Unfortunately, I have yet to find a F2P game that doesn't reward players with power, or that can be bought entirely for a reasonable boxed-game purchase price.

    Free to Play will definitely be the future for the console kiddies demographic, but there really are some people out there with self-control and common sense not to drop $10-20 on single items in games when full games can be bought on Steam for that price or less.
     
  9. Nemephosis

    Nemephosis Earning my Infrequent Flier miles

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    Doesn't matter to me, I'll just stop buying new games. I'm perfectly happy playing all my old ones.
     
  10. elmuerte

    elmuerte Master of Science

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    I'm quite annoyed by that sensational headline because it puts out the wrong message.
    Infinity Blade had the highest profit on invested manhour, but it's not the most profitable game Epic made. The "most profitable" is about an absolute number, not a ration. Gears of War put much more money into Epic's bank account than Infinity Blade did.

    As for F2P. I hate it. Because the game mechanic essentially boils down to griding. Either that, or you have to pay to continue the game. Instead of griding, you could pay to win (easier).
    So, F2P pretty much ruins an entertaining experience.
     
  11. 213

    213 New Member

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    You get what you pay for, especially in gaming.

    Free 2 Play But Pay 2 Win can get fucked.

    As for Asia and it's market, sure when you have on average more than 10 times the population per square, over crowded mile the numbers will look great.

    Still waiting on epic to put out something worth buying, since like .. late 2003. With their egos it'll be hilarious to see what they pump out and call "worth releasing" when they've got the mentality of "Hey it's free what do they expect from us." stuck in their thick skulls.

    Alpha quality rehashes incoming.
     
  12. DeathBooger

    DeathBooger Malcolm's Sugar Daddy

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    Epic isn't a game development company any more, it's now a game engine company that releases examples of what their engine can do. They're about as out of touch with the game community as you can get. Epic still thinks PC gaming is dead for crying out loud.

    The only game I've ever seen that's F2P that makes any sense is Team Fortress 2. They sold it at first to cover the cost of the initial development and then they made it F2P with optional micro-transactions that don't really change the game at all, but are still worthwhile. These micro-transactions just pay for continued minor development and maintenance of the game. It still has a more active community than any other 5 year old game too.
     
  13. ambershee

    ambershee Nimbusfish Rawks

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    It's more profitable in terms of percentages. The return on Infinity Blade was something ludicrous nearing 1000%.
     
  14. dinwitty

    dinwitty DeRegistered User

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    EPIC was pushing their game engine as early as Unreal was in development, just like ID has their engine, LithTech has theirs admon etc etc and game developers pick and choose their engine, as early as Unreal came out soon already was Klingon Honor Guard. Probably some differences why the Unreal engine has been used as much was their openness to mod away their games, you learn, and the editor can be easy/hard, but can be effective in making/playtesting games and get a fast thruput in a game development.

    For free to play, I have found my favorite.-- Shaiya, one it makes no excuses in open creativity in character designs, like Duke Nukem, no shame. Its not FPS, its more like a player/manager-3rd person, but you can go down to 1st person view.
    It is not turn based, quite exactly, you usually take turns beating back and forth on an opponent, but you could have 2 or more enemies on you, extra enemies still pound on you but you can only target 1 at a time. Its an RPG3rdPVMMORG kinda sorta. At the start you level fast but as you grow leveling slows down, but I have one character up to level 57, and yet in most p2p areas I am lambasted by players leveled above me. What you have in Shaiya is if you want to level faster you pay for it, but you can still free-level up no prob, just keep grinding.
    I find it just fun enough with enough creative variety to make it interesting, if I don't want to dig hard playing UT Face, Shaiya is a laid back easy entertaining romp. Theyve designed it with easy to hard playing as you level, if your this level, higher enemies are going to kick your arse, but lower enemies are easy chomps but give small experience or none making you move on to battle enemies at your level balance.
    It has one quest that has me going zany, you have to aquire some potion from a frog, getting 10 of them, run it to a helper who gives you 1 item for 10 potions, then you need 10 of these items to get another item from another helper, who then gives another item for 10, etc etc down the line, in the end it takes like 2-3000 potions (prolly exageration but you get the point) to get to the final -win- object of this quest, and those frogs don't drop potions all the time... I dunno how many frogs I have fragged, and its still going.. havent made the final of this quest yet....whoever thought this one up, by jeebers.....

    Your right about the balanced gaming in UT, play one map everybody's on the same level, its your personal skills that make the win, not a handed out monster weapon that allows you to killerfrag everybody. (well the redeemer did that but anyone could nab it)

    This PC gaming trend is getting interesting and makes me wonder about the consoles anymore. WoW is pretty strong still and made free to play to level 20.
     
  15. [GU]elmur_fud

    [GU]elmur_fud I have balls of Depleted Uranium

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    I seem to recall saying something akin to Tims comment in a steam argument in off-topic a couple years back I think. The writings been pretty plainly visible on the wall for a while.

    F2P MMO's that are CS supported are plentiful and some can be moderately fun for awhile. Runes of Magic, Allods online, Battle of Immortals, and rose are tolerable examples. All of which can be played just fine without using the CS.

    Diablo III is basiclly a pay once F2P mmo so the concept is already here.

    It could mean the death of digital distro solutions like steam (though I doubt it). Just a shift in their business model.
     
  16. moonflyer

    moonflyer New Member

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    Pay to play was never really a profitable mode here in China, since 90s (When the Chinese ppl began to buy desktop computers and play pc games), so in China, you can't say the old model is unrecoverable coz it was never there in the first place.
    :lol:

    The reasons why F2P seems working here in China, may include:
    - Piracy
    Most Chinese gamers agree that the biggest victim of piracy is our own gaming industry. It never had an opportunity to form the Pay per game model as everytime someone tried it, just waste of money

    - Technology
    Or maybe I should say Research and Development. Since pay per game never worked, no one here bothered to do R&D. Without good technology, no production value can be achieved

    - Easy to access internet
    Today internet is everywhere. PC, laptop, pad, phone, everywhere and young people just can't resist to stay online all the time. And most asian youths figure it's the best way to waste their spare time.:rolleyes:
    But what to do when online? Chatting? Surfing? Watch TV? Mail? News? Or just porn? Wait, you can't do that 24hrs. So very soon online game was found to be a welcome platform for these youths to keep themselves busy

    - But internet is all about free, right?
    I can't argue against that. So F2P and Online games, what a nice couple. But how to make money if everything is really free. So these brilliant developers found this P2W. Problem solved.

    - Huge population
    So as a result, we get these F2P games and there are so many of them, but because of the huge population, which means huge online youths population, many of these games can still make money.
    And don't forget in China, the big cities are much advanced than country villages/small towns. So those not good enough games are not popular in big cities, can be welcome in small towns. This is something very special, very Chinese. These makes some game devs care less about quality and production value.
     
    Last edited: Jun 30, 2012
  17. Sk.7

    Sk.7 New Member

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    Then again noone is even BOTHERING to create more unique titles these days, it just accidentally happens as a mutation rises. Devs are all stuck back in the 90s when their carriers started. Every millionaire title like NFS, FIFA, COD, BF, WOW are aimed at maximum-fanboys who get satisfaction from the click of a mouse, who needs innovation!

    Here comes the fun part, as for the recent F2P outbreak, may I remind you all the saying "EPISODIC GAMING 2006". Valve been advertising all over the place yet failed to deliver their own episodic content properly timed, namely HL2ep3 (but SiN Episodes was another victim of this model) and who truly benefits from using this model ever since? TELLTALE GAMES!! Back To The Future, Sam & Max, Jurassic Park, The Walking Dead, ALL LIVED TO SEE A FULL 5 EPISODE PACKAGE if not even more!

    So F2P gaming... Yeah right, let's ride the wave till we can get more true talent in the industry to fill the gap between the generations. Until then, expansions DO WORK. I'm no fan of COD nor BF but I'd PAY ANY MONEY to see an Unreal game getting so much new content and attention from Epic, be it even seasonal ticket or DLC based as long as I have the choice between both retail and digital, even BioWare made me put 2 empty boxes on my shelf as ME2 became quite my precious virtual toy.

    MAKE. GOOD CONTENT. WE WILL PAY.

    As for Tribes Ascend... Don't get me started on the Jackal/Plasma Gun and the other retarded moves that keep bashing at an excellent core gameplay. Then again, who makes a cardgame style class-mechanic in the first place?! Tribes Ascend is both awesomely cool and insanely stupid at the same time. During the last 3 months the game changed faces with every patch, thank god we mostly play it for the players' unpredictability and inventiveness, and yay, XP reward for even BEING THERE, oh the joy of minor subconscious programming over the fragile human mind of a gamer.

    /late-night rage out, not bothered to think it further through, I simply miss the good old days when devs used to risk stuff for realising their dreams, but that golden era is over, our heroes went AWOL on us :mad:
     
  18. Kyllian

    Kyllian if (Driver == Bot.Pawn); bGTFO=True;

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    No, SiN Episodes was a victim of "devs were bought up and new boss slammed the brakes"
     
  19. Sk.7

    Sk.7 New Member

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    That's almost like what Valve did with HL2ep3 in favor of Left 4 Dead, I guess?! Dang, I'm still an angry gamer, sleep won't help :mad:
     
  20. StalwartUK

    StalwartUK Member

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    Are they even working on it anymore or have they just quietly killed it off like Blizzard did with StarCraft: Ghost?

    Face it, we knew more about even Duke Nukem Forever then we do about Half Life 2 Episode 3 at this point in development. After four years we at least had a few videos and some screenshots to look at. Other than a few pieces of concept art I've seen little evidence of HL2EP3.
     

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