This is pretty stupid

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Bad.Mojo

Commander in Chief o' the BMA
Mar 17, 2000
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It is, of course, stupid beyond belief.

The fact is those agents were ordered there by the INS (I believe) and that they were there to conduct a raid of a house to secure a target and that they did their job with efficiency.

The Gonzalez family in Miami is obviously lying. They're trying to turn Elian Gonzalez into another Vietnam, that is, a war of ideologies.

Their tactics have left a very sour taste in my admittedly far-left mouth.

Let us scrutinize them:

-They have claimed that a boy, barely out of his toddler stages, has expressed interest in seeking political asylum.
-They use photographs as proof that the boy wishes to stay in America because he is happy. Never mind that fact that the child has absolutely no grasp of geo-political borders and governments, and that the boy is merely smiling like any boy would because he has been lavished with expensive toys.
-They claim that archived statements of the boy shouting that he wished to return to Cuba, translated from Spanish, are lies, though the videotape clearly shows him saying it.

Facts of the matter:
-Elian has expressed his wishes to be returned to Cuba with his father.
-His father is fit and able and thus has every right to have custody of Elian.
-Elian, once reunited with his father, has asked when they were going back home (to Cuba.)
-Anybody other than a 6 year old boy would have been immediately deported. (Come on, you know it as well as I do.)
-National sentiment is with the boy and his father. National political sentiment is also with the boy and his father. The only people who want to break a family apart are the Cubans in Miami. I think this speaks volumes alone for Fidel Castro and the people who "ran" from him.
-He was kidnapped, taken against his will (that of his legal guardian's consent,) and brought to a foreign country. Had this happened in the child going to say, the United States to Mexico, he would *IMMEDIATELY* be returned.

I dunno, the people in Miami are frankly being jerks. I got tired of this whole Elian thing months ago, and I just wanted the kid to go back with his goddam father where he belonged. The Miami family is nothing but scum. My only regret about the raid was that none of them were armed, because truly, they deserve death. I just hope they die some other way. I wish they could read this. I really do. I want them to know that somebody, somewhere, wants them dead for all the shit they've pulled. Of course, I'm sure the U.S. justice system will find some way, some how to screw this one up too. Most powerful nation in the world? Naw, just the most arrogant. And people actually ask why I despise that country

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Kibbles-N-Bits

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Dec 7, 1999
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Elian sux

This stupid kid practically LIVED in Disney and owns every toy imaginable now! We are spendng almost as much on this stupid argumaent as we do on foriegn aid! Whats up with that!!??!

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and miss.
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MiscMan

The Grand Elitist
Dec 24, 1999
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Strange how the media screws with peoples minds, like ours...

I mean, you really can't complain. Somebody in the media thought it could make headlines that a "little defenseless boy from a oppressing communist dictatorship country" that had to float on a raft to get over here because his mother wanted to. This wouldn't have happened except that the Media(or even someone in office) would see this as less boring than usual.


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WHY

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2 things about that

1. Wasn't his mother his legal guardian ?

2. isn't there something that says that if they come from cuba and set foot on american soil, they can't be sent back (not sure about this, I think I heard it somewhere)
 

Bad.Mojo

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1) No, he was kidnapped. His father was his legal guardian.

2) No, its the other way around. U.S. citizens need some sort of special passport/visa to go to Cuba. The same with Cubans going to the states (otherwise none of their athletes would ever leave after any of the competitions, as opposed to only most of them leaving and the rest defecting.)

Though hurray for propoganda, as it claims another victim.

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DeadeyeDan[ToA]

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1- I've read the father lost custody, and I've read they shared joint custody. I can't seem to find any info stating that mother didn't have at least joint custody.

2- Normally, if a Cuban refugee is picked up at sea by the U.S. Coast Guard, the refugee is automatically returned to Cuba. If the refugee makes it to U.S. soil, they are granted asylum, and are eligible for citizenship in one year. Section 1158 of 8 U.S.C provides:

"Any alien who is physically present in the United States or who arrives in the United States (whether or not at a designated port of arrival and including an alien who is brought to the United States after having been interdicted in international or United States waters), irrespective of such alien's status, may apply for asylum in accordance with this section or, where applicable, section 1225(b) of this title."

I guess for some reason the words "any alien... may apply for asylum" were forgotten in this case, and Elian couldn't apply because of his age.

And btw I do think that is very stupid, the guy was doing his job. Doris Meissner or Janet Reno apologizing, on the other hand, would be much different.

_______________________
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Bad.Mojo

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Remember, the propoganda you are subject to in the U.S. is pro-U.S., anti-Cuba, meaning everything to discredit the Cubans can and will be done. The information that comes along to Canada is pro-nobody, so we get the straight facts on foreign affairs. Take everything you hear about this case with a grain of salt. Also, the boy technically didn't make it to U.S. soil on his own, that fisherman rescued him.

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WHY

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Personally I think both sides are acting like complete idiots.

Also I'm from Montreal, and I usually watch the news on BBC, so that propoganda remark doesn't really work.
 

DeadeyeDan[ToA]

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It doesn't work here, either. I rarely watch the news or read the paper- I use the internet, which is worldwide. I have seen pro-cuban articles, but nothing saying the mother kidnapped Elian.

And yeah, I thought him not making it all the way in was the problem at first too, but apparently Doris Meissner's decision was based solely on the lack of info in the statute about children and parental consent... congress went to great lenghts to prevent limitations on that statute- there's plenty of text in between "any alien" and "may apply", all meaning roughly "not just some, ANY ALIEN", but I guess they forgot age (but then again status could include anything, including age). Because they didn't repeat themselves about that specific characteristic of the alien (they shouldn't need all that text in between, the word "any" speaks for itself), Doris Meissner decided age was fair game to make new rules on, and called the statute contradictory, dispite it's clearly stated meaning.

_______________________
Shot four puppet governors in a line,
Shook all tha world bankers, who think they can rhyme,
Shot the landlords, who knew it was mine,
Yes, its a war from the depth of time!
 

Bad.Mojo

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Mar 17, 2000
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Though then the question is, if Elian requested asylum, a feat in and of itself fairly impressive for a kid that probably still pisses the bed, why has he never publicly expressed his wishes for asylum, but has, however, publicly expressed his wishes to return to Cuba?

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DeadeyeDan[ToA]

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I believe Elian and Lazaro tried to file for asylum together...

And Elian has also expressed wishes NOT to go back to Cuba, either or both could be pure manipulation of the kid. When he's older I only hope he'll have the choice to live in either if he wants, and I see no reason why we can't give him to his father AND grant him asylum/citizenship, whatever it takes to prevent him from becoming *property* of Cuba, so that what we decided for him wouldn't be permanent.

_______________________
Shot four puppet governors in a line,
Shook all tha world bankers, who think they can rhyme,
Shot the landlords, who knew it was mine,
Yes, its a war from the depth of time!
 

thornz

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Dec 14, 1999
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ha ha

I live in miami, and about the only thing I care about is the freaking traffic.

you know, there is a sentiment going around that cubans are crazy. I'm slightly inclined to believe them, but considering that they (orignally, at least) think of themselves simply as displaced cubans, not americans, kinda makes you wonder.

about the only thing I have learned from this situation is that the ethnic gap in this town is much wider than we ever feared. I live in a tourist trap thats filled with people who consider themselves as a huge group non-citizens, yet vote on a whole more than my ethnic group. I'm not racist, but thats disturbing, especially when we elect crackpots like carollo and penelas. The only other thing I've learned from this situation is a basic law of immigration: a displaced country can't exist forever. Unlike little chinatown or a jewish barrio, somehow cubans don't seem quite as adept at passing on heritage. For the most part, I've seen a whole lot of apathetic children, I guess like myself. There are a lot of kids who live in the middle of little havana who are continuing whatever heritage & beliefs cubans have, which most people (sometimes myself) think consist of arroz con pollo and hating anything remotely related to Fidel Castro. But mostly, the next generation doesnt care. Thats what I guess happens when you move "temporarily". Barrios were set up to start a new way of life. Little havana is one big condo, with lots of bored teenagers.

my 2 best friends are cuban, one of which was born in havana, and I ask them what he and his family thinks about all this. They both say the same thing, more or less. "eh, whatever. theyre all nuts". Ones grandmother wanted to go protest though, although nobody wanted to drive her. >
 

Bad.Mojo

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All I can say is Ha! Nobody wanted to drive her.

Otherwise, I didn't know Lazaro requested Asylum, in fact, I heard quite different. I heard the only reason they're still stuck on the continental U.S. is because of the asylum hearings and appeals and yak yak yak. I don't think WE should decide anything for Elian. I think his father, his legal guardian, should decide whether he goes back to Cuba or gets to stay in the United States. It is not the government or the relatives place to decide. It is a little boy's father, who has raised him, sired him, bred him, who has the ****ing right to decide what happens to his son, not some goddam red-tape making office holders or "natural tanned" Cuban refugees from Miami that have the right to choose the fate of a father and son. When he's old enough to make his own decisions, he can drown on the way over to the U.S. like his mother, but for now, he belongs with his father, and his father says they belong in Cuba. He seems to agree since his spontaneous, unmanipulated comments (witness his comment to the plane flying over head, when he squeeled with joy "Take me back to Cuba", though the Miami relatives adamantly deny it.)

Who here has actually been to Cuba? I went to Cuba in '95 and I can tell you three things. 1) They hate Americans. 2) They love Canadians. 3) They don't hate Castro. Castro and Gueverra saved them from Batista, a blood thirsty tyrannical ruler. Everybody seems to forget that real quick. Just remember who's side Russia was on fighting Nazi Germany, boys. And being from a Socialist country, I can tell you off-right is very comfortable. I'd rather live in communism than in fascism, though.

A sentiment quickly forgotten by the "do it our way or no way" policy of foreign rights

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WHY

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Really, because Stalin was just as bad as Hitler, even worse in some respects.

so, it's either you get killed just for not being of a certain religion, or get killed because you said something the government didn't like.
 

MiscMan

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Dec 24, 1999
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Stalin was many times worse than hitler, though no one talks about him cause he barely did shit to us. Instead of trying to help even a few people, like hitler, he simply killed everyone that had any sort of voice against them. I mean, the trials he held sent millions upon millions of innocents to their deaths, often times through excruciating torture.

But, i guess Mussolini was even worse. Though killing fewer people, that was his general intention.

I could be wrong tho, i wouldn't mind being corrected if anyone has anymore information.

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In replacement of my normal, cheaply animated sig, i'll replace it with my name and weekly, quote(or something).

-MiscMan

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"Life does not consist mainly, or even largely, of facts and happenings. It consists mainly of the storm of thought that is forever flowing through one's head."

-Mark Twain
 

Bad.Mojo

Commander in Chief o' the BMA
Mar 17, 2000
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Well, there was that one lunatic from some Balkan country that just murdered people for fun, a couple decades back. His name escapes me right now, but the guy was a ****ing nut case.

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Dead bodies everywhere
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Christopher Webb

Overtly Serious Chappy.
Let's not forget Mao, who killed more of his own people than possibly Hitler and Stalin combined

If I really want a good news report, I watch SBS, which is the 'multicultural' broadcaster over here. Their news has a very high professional quality to it, and tends to be a no bullshit affair.

And don't forget that the trade embargo was only put in because US companies had their assets seized by the Cubans. And that a relatively recent law allows the US to sieze the US holdings of any FOREIGN company who trades with Cuba.

<insert cute/ interesting/ bizarre signature here>
 

Bad.Mojo

Commander in Chief o' the BMA
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As far as the trade embargo goes, I heard it was ordered by the U.S. as they moved all U.S. business from Cuba, in an economic retaliation to the Cuban missile crisis, though I remember hearing this years ago, so the information may be distorted.

Though I'm quite frankly getting sick of the U.S.'s policy of "our way or the highway." Though I am comforted in the knowledge that all empires fall, from Babylon to Rome to Britain to Microsoft. The U.S. is only a matter of time. I only hope to still be alive when that time comes. Its nothing against Americans, per se, because when they're alone they're a pleasant bunch (though slightly ignorant to anything outside the U.S... one guy tried to claim that the U.S. invented ice hockey until I showed him different) its when you get them together in a group that they become like finger nails on a blackboard. And the amount of mis-education they have is horrible. I'll admit I learned some heavily censored crap up here too, but whenever I studied ANYTHING of North American culture, I made sure to get a neutral reference, usually continental European. They usually don't explore that luxury, which is a damn shame, because alot of people end up hating them for it.

Oh, and don't forget PolPot and the Khmer Rouge... that was one crazy mofo.

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Dead bodies everywhere
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