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Stinger sucks, bring back the Minigun

Discussion in 'Unreal Tournament 3' started by Gnam, Apr 29, 2005.

  1. Radiosity

    Radiosity Minty Fresh!

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    Um, yes they did. Stinger in Unreal was projectile based, not hitscan. And -AEnubis- is exactly right, projectiles can be made basically instant hit easily enough, but they still have a fractionary travel time, which means it's that little bit easier to dodge the damn things, unlike hitscan which is purely hit or miss.

    I've got a shotgun, with pellets that travel at 100000 units per second - fast enough to be basically instant hit, but if you fire them at extreme distances (end to end on Face3 for example) then it is possible to dodge them, as long as you react quickly enough to the person firing at you ;)
     
  2. -AEnubis-

    -AEnubis- fps greater than star

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    The other thing is if the fire is rapid and accurate, even if you don't dodge the first couple shards, you will see where the others are streaming, and know not to walk into your attackers lead.
     
  3. gregori

    gregori BUF Refugee

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    Been able to dodge the shards would silly,it would be then just a pulsegun.As it is the UT2kx minigun is practically useless and that hit scan. The stinger U1 might aswell of been hitscan because you never had to fight anything with it at a great distance. The CAR in U2 was the replacement for the stinger in terms of functionality and it was hitscan primaryfire.Projectile sniper weapons and miniguns suck. UT99 handled projectile and hitscan weapons much better.Kill or be killed twitch shooting is more fun than the slowness of a ut2kx battle
     
  4. -AEnubis-

    -AEnubis- fps greater than star

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    :con:

    If you played on a modem :rolleyes:

    Guess you have to see it to understand it.
     
  5. gregori

    gregori BUF Refugee

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    played which one on a modem?
     
  6. carmatic

    carmatic New Member

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    ut99, because back in those days people associated hitscan with luck... nowadays, people's ingame characters accurately moves where their real life muscles move, and people have gotten to training their real life movements to be lethal in the game world...
     
  7. gregori

    gregori BUF Refugee

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    there not to much luck in ut99 but it's more unpredictable, so it appeals to less hardcore players of the genre, which is most players
     
  8. carmatic

    carmatic New Member

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    well yeah, you can ascribe the elements of luck to things like superweapons and powerful pickups , but they are only luck in public servers filled with random people ...people who trained to be a hardcore players use these things tactically , and for pickups like 100 health and super shield, people actually count the time between their spawns , and for superweapons and stuff , they disable it so that its less down to luck , and more down to their individual skill which people will enjoy once they possess it...

    luck-based things tend to end up being disruptive on a solid game of skill, which i think many people see ut2k4 as... when you are losing, then you would wish for some lucky things to happen to stop the winning person, but when you are winning, unlucky things will make you want to punch your monitor... but in general , when you win a match, you'd have to be a pretty nasty person to say 'good game' when you know its been luck, and playing many different maps on the same server, with the same bunch of people, should establish who is better than who on average , which makes you get used to the idea of skill being an enjoyable factor in the game...
     
    Last edited: May 6, 2005
  9. gregori

    gregori BUF Refugee

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    thanx be to f#ck there gonna bring in that ratings system that matches peoples of equal skill for battle, this will allow it to be a fun game all, i don't think i could time for the pickup myself, A bit of luck is fun, extinguishes ego and the likes, skill isn't all, fun is important
     
  10. carmatic

    carmatic New Member

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    ok there is still an element of luck in it, but this luck is purely in the lack of skill between players... like, the most efficient way of dealing luck is with something like a casino, and for fps gamers thats not very fun at all.... the most natural way of dealing with luck, however, is to mimic our experience in real life... imagine when you played a sport,and you tried to score a goal all alone but you missed... you can practice by yourself, and you can get better, but sooner or later you'll wanna play against someone else... hopefully, you wont get owned , and the person you are playing against has equal skill as you, so you can have jackpot-like scores between you...

    to enforce luck into a game is like forcing everyone into an artifical feeling like your in a casino...but, the better way is to let people express more aspects of their skill, not just with their aiming... both aiming and dodging projectiles counted, then you dont have to neccessarily have a good aim to be a good player, and different playing styles in different situations will create this luck-like balance in the game(i.e. you know that person has good aim, but he's got a projectile weapon, he'll try to lead you , but you do some fancy dodges and he misses , then as he moves in to try and catch you , you surprise him with some short range weapon)

    what happens if he's got martial-arts like abilities in-game and completely owns everyone with every possible skill? well, then yeah, maybe abit of luck will come in handy... but it will feel like 'natural luck' , as in something comprehensibly and understandably complex happens that nobody objects to it happening, like maybe the structure that he's standing on has been damaged enough by being shot at,he has almost now way of knowing how much more damage it can take,and its definitely calculated and not set at some random value each time the game starts, and one more shot and it collapses on him and kills him (remember that we have more powerful computers when envy comes out)
     
    Last edited: May 6, 2005
  11. gregori

    gregori BUF Refugee

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    hence the new matching system for different skill levels, fix the wide gap in the community between hardcore and casual players
     
  12. carmatic

    carmatic New Member

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    well, i dunnoe if any such wide gap can exist, people surely distribute in a continuous way... its only the top few that get famous, and everyone from people who are very close to them in skill, to complete newstarters , look up to them and see the difference in ability between themselves and the aforementioned top few... but if you pit people randomly against each other, as is what happens in public servers, the continuous range of skill levels becomes obvious, i.e. there is no 'hardcore' and 'casual' players, only people better than you or worse than you...
     
  13. gregori

    gregori BUF Refugee

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    sure it does and there will nearly always be one or two people who are ridiculously better than the rest on the server which ruins the game, but that might be solved in envy if people of similar skills are matched
     
  14. carmatic

    carmatic New Member

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    ah, then this is where my idea of a 'ownage prevention system' comes in... well, its supposed to protect players against people above their class, but there should be a class framework in place for the prevention system to protect, otherwise it would effectively be punishing players for getting better at the game...basically, when someone becomes clearly better than the rest of the players, then something really really really bad happens to that person, which is worse than being kicked , and it would make him want to leave the server willingly... its just one of the things i wish that they'd put into envy... look at the ranking system of uc2, its compulsory utstats (or ucstats if you'd call it that) for all online players, and you'll be rewarded for playing against people who are ranked higher than you by having your rank increased... and punished for going against lower-ranked players, by lowering your rank... i think, anyway, im sure that in-game score is a factor in your rank, its just some extra effects to discourage against playing against people lower than you...
     
    Last edited: May 6, 2005
  15. -AEnubis-

    -AEnubis- fps greater than star

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    The rest of that conversation strayed quickly, so I'll just pick up here.

    UT. UT's weapon balance was designed for higher ping connections. That game on a lan was so one sided weapon wise. Sniper and Mini were god, and the rest of the weapons were really just for suppression, or showing off. Hit-scan is only known for taking any skill, becaue in a latent environment, you still gotta lead.

    Offline, hitscan is a joke. Look at any SP style game, like U1. Sniper, then Mini were weapon 8 and 9, last because of their effectiveness. Xbow in HL, Thunderbolt in Quake, and I'm sure the list goes on, but those are the only ones I know well.

    In UT, the reason mini is weapon 6 is because of ping, and how they try to balance it accordingly for ping. They try to keep it in said position. Weapons like the sniper weapon, and the mini weapon are getting weaker, because pings are getting better. The closer to LAN pings we get, the further away then need to be from any hit-scan at all.
     
  16. edhe

    edhe ..dadhe..

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    Your idea eh?

    Pff :)

    /me notes the thread starter on the 'active ranking' thread... ;)
     
  17. gregori

    gregori BUF Refugee

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    no hitscan weapons would of course suck, and i'm crap at using them, they work perfectly well on lan games, its is projectile splash damage weapons that have the real advantage with bad pings, though LAN speeds are what epic should be aiming at in envy
     
  18. edhe

    edhe ..dadhe..

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    Just you tell the multimillion uber-experienced people what to do.

    Hitscan works perfectly well all the time, you just have to learn the skills to be a good enough player to use it in all situations. With bad pings you do not have any kind of advantage, but due to the delays and predictions involved in delivering projectile/splash damage weapons they will be generally more successful than hitscan at high ping levels, map/player dependant.

    what exactly are you meaning? If you're implying that Epic should gear the game to LAN style network conditions then you're wrong. With so much broadband going about yeah you can tailor it for lower ping but there's a good portion of the intarweb to deal with too, so it still needs to be tuned for that, not LAN. And if you're meaning that Epic should be trying to get everyone onto 10 ping servers, then tough - that's impossible due the fact there's latency.
     
  19. gregori

    gregori BUF Refugee

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    i 'm implying the faster and smoother this game runs over a the net the better for everyone! that stops bullsh#t about your ping killing you in the game makes it a fairer playing ground ,alot of people have broadband and the likes and the networking improved alot since ut99 so it should improve again, it's all important if your going too make a networrk game,

    no matter what ping your operating at the fact remains you can spam the cr#p out of targets you dont have line on sight with with splash dammage projectile, rocket are good for this, you only have to fire into a space someone could be at a paticular time then bam!
     
  20. -AEnubis-

    -AEnubis- fps greater than star

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    hit-scan can be spammed just the same, and line of sight is not required.

    It also doesn't take that much more skill to make hit-scan effective at all ranges. Where making projectiles more effective at ranges they aren't intended (the longer ones) does take quite a bit of skill.

    I think they should be pretty close to optimizing weapon balance for LAN's, due to how many people play this game on the net with LAN-esc pings. I life in FL, and play with 30 pings to Chicago. The net is getting pretty quick. I still think they should keep average ping in mind, and not totally neglect our HPB's (high ping buddies), but I'm not crazy about commiting out-right rape everytime my hit-scan is on. I like to earn my wins :/
     

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