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Skybox rendering question (with pics!)

Discussion in 'Original Unreal Tournament' started by ZeaLitY, Sep 5, 2009.

  1. ZeaLitY

    ZeaLitY Modernaire

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    So I finished my ultimate vanilla install using the GotY edition + BP4 + 436 + S3TC from the UTRP + Oldunreal sound + most up-to-date video drivers.

    But I noticed, my new install renders skyboxes perfectly! I had no idea my old install was rendering them incorrectly. Here is the old install:

    http://chronofan.com/Zeality/1.jpg

    Here is the new install:

    http://chronofan.com/Zeality/2.jpg

    The problem is, I love the way my old install showed them :( those lights and dark clouds really gave some maps an other-worldly feel more than just blue sky.

    Does anyone know why this happens? My old install uses an OpenGL renderer from mid-2008, so maybe it's that. :(

    Edit: Also seems like I can't ALT+ENTER to minimize this install, or the textures go completely insane and I have to restart UT (so this is an S3TC issue). ALT+ENTER is the only real way I can alt-tab since I use OpenGL.
     
    Last edited: Sep 5, 2009
  2. War_Master

    War_Master Member

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    s3tc sure adds a lot of issues to the list. I wouldn't sacrifice my game just for graphics which the difference is just barely. I did want to give them a go to see what they're like but seeing how people list so many problems with those textures I'm too scared to try it and mess up my game too.

    btw, you missed BP1 which is the most important if it didn't have it because it contains the monsters.
     
  3. Diehard

    Diehard New Member

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    Just about a month ago i found out such a thing excists, but didnt have time to dive into the subject to test what is going on.


    As for bugs with S3TC, there is only oné and that is the skating player bug. But that is caused by serveradmins and not by S3TC itself. Apart from that there are no bugs at all with S3TC.


    At least that was the case till about a month ago when i found a similar effect(as you show in the picture) in another map. And ill be honest i almost fell of my chair, and i was WTF ??? when i saw it. Theoretically the textures themselves should not be able to cause any effect, nothing, zero, nada. And theres a simple reason for it, they are just textures and nothing more...........


    And i have to get back to you guys on another moment, since i lack the time right now. But i will do as soon as possible, and try test if this is due to the renderer, and if different renders matter(OpenGl, D3D8, D3D9) or is it really the textures themself that cause it somehow.


    I also need to test if this is UT specific, or if that effect is also present with Unreal. If its not, than nothing is lost, because i can always turn to either Chris Dohnal or Smirftsch to create a fixed renderer.


    But at this moment i have no clue, and frankly it almost sounds like the twilight zone, because it should NOT be possible at all !!!! But as the screenshots proove, it is.


    And to help me out, what map is that Zeality? For pinpointing the bug i would be helpfull.
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  4. Diehard

    Diehard New Member

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    As i said above there was ever only one, which isnt even caused by the S3TC textures, this new bug actually is the first bug ever encountered since the project started 5 years ago, so by all means, its not a list and never was.........



    I do disagree totally, and i think S3TC users from UTRP project agree with me on that. More than 50% of the textures are covered, and they do make a difference. And as you said, you didnt try them. I would say try them, cause reverting is simple as hell, just overwrite them them with the textures from your CD, and its fixed again. (e.g. just a bit of copy paste really)


    And i dont mind if you like them, or they look horrible to you, thats fine with me, at the end you like them or not. But saying such a thing while you never tried them, is actually not so cool ......
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    Last edited: Sep 5, 2009
  5. ZeaLitY

    ZeaLitY Modernaire

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    Oh, that's AS-Rook. But just to make sure there isn't a misunderstanding, the skybox seems to be OK with S3TC textures, or at least how Epic intended (the blue sky). AS-Mazon also looks like that skybox now, and if you look at the thumbnail of Mazon from the practice game loading screen, it looks like that. The skybox picture with the green light on the moon, and the gray clouds, etc. I think is incorrect, but I'm just trying to find out what makes it incorrect, since I love it over the correct skybox.

    But just curious, does Rook look like http://chronofan.com/Zeality/1.jpg for anyone else?

    Now that I'm awake, I'll run some tests on a new install to see what made the difference.

    GotY comes with BP1, 2, and Inoxx pre-installed, so that saves a bit of work.

    BIG EDIT: Okay, I found the reason the skybox is different. UT's preinstalled OpenGL renderer shows the skybox fine (blue sky). And utglr35, the newest unofficial OpenGL renderer, shows it fine as well. But I have an old version (I think utglr32, although it doesn't completely match the size), and that's what shows the skybox like that.

    I wish I could figure out which version I have, though, since it doesn't match up to utglr32. If anyone wants the weird one I have, http://chronofan.com/Zeality/OpenGlDrv.dll

    ALSO: I can ALT+ENTER to minimize UT with this old OpenGL driver and S3TC, but I can't with the new utglr35. So I guess I'll keep playing with S3TC, but just use this old OpenGL driver. It's a happy ending :shock:
     
    Last edited: Sep 5, 2009
  6. Diehard

    Diehard New Member

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    I just did a fast test on the renderers.

    Could you test this as well. Because if i am correct, if you use the D3D8 or D3D9 renderer the clouds look the same. But if you switch to OpenGL the clouds are back.


    If correct the Dark clouds and lighting shows up correctly(like in the first pic) if you use OpenGL, could you try that Zeality to confirm that ?
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  7. Diehard

    Diehard New Member

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    I wasnt really clear i think, and let me explain.


    The first picture is correct, the second is wrong. The map is made like this, the very top clouds are small clouds that have a light blue lighting. Below that layer is another layer of clouds, this time they are unlit. And Because the clouds are unlit, they show up as grey dark omminous clouds and show a noticable green and blue spot done by the lights, oné green, oné blue

    In the second picture that lower cloud layer is gone, and since the green and blue light is only visible because it reflects agains the lowest cloud layer, you cannot see those as well.


    What is left, is the top layer of clouds that is light blue in color.

    The first picture is correct, the second is wrong. As i said, if correct, the D3D8 and the D3D9 renderer shows the wrong skybox, but OpenGL should gives the correct skybox(with dark large clouds and a green and a blue spot of light)



    Could you retest that for me ?
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    Last edited: Sep 5, 2009
  8. ZeaLitY

    ZeaLitY Modernaire

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    Okay, going with the latest drivers from http://www.cwdohnal.com/utglr/:

    D3D8: Blue sky
    D3D9: Blue sky
    UT's Default OpenGL: Blue sky
    utglr35: Correct (green moon, dark clouds)
    My OpenGL (utglr32 I think): Correct (green moon, dark clouds)

    Okay, so perhaps I was accidentally using D3D9 last night when I thought I was using utglr35; I'm not sure, or perhaps there were some bad settings? But utglr35 is working for me now, and I can ALT+ENTER to minimize UT without texture issues. So it seems the unofficial OpenGL is correct.
     
    Last edited: Sep 5, 2009
  9. Diehard

    Diehard New Member

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    For correctness i used follow renderers:

    D3D8: utd3d8r14
    D3D9: utd3d9r10
    OpenGL: Utglr34

    And to get this straight:

    The correct scenery is: When you see dark clouds with a green and blue spot (basically it looks like night):

    The wrong scenery is: When you see a light blue sky. (basically it looks like day):




    But from what you wrote above you got the same results:

    D3D8 is wrong
    D3D9 is wrong
    OpenGL is correct.

    Right ?
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  10. ZeaLitY

    ZeaLitY Modernaire

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    Yep, that's it exactly.

    So I'm now happily playing with S3TC, and things look great. I am wondering a bit why the AS-HiSpeed train cars are so yellow, but it's something I can live with.
     
  11. Diehard

    Diehard New Member

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    Thanks for testing it :)

    I did a test myself on Unreal as well, and for Unreal all renderers work correctly. It also means that its NOT and S3TC problem but a bug(or wrong setting ?) in the D3D renderers that needs to be fixed. Ill contact Chris and Smirftsch about it, to see if they can release an update soon.


    So for the moment ill advise to use the OpenGL renderer instead the D3D renderers.




    I know i worked alot on those yellow textures, but right now i cant recall if actually added updated versions to the UTRP packages. But if not, you look at the Epic created S3TC textures.
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  12. ZeaLitY

    ZeaLitY Modernaire

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    Hehe, then yeah, it's the same old Epic texture. I attached a screenshot (my filehost is down, I think).

    Thanks for all your work! It's fun playing maps online and noticing new details.
     

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  13. Diehard

    Diehard New Member

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    Yeah i am pretty sure thats Epic textures, except the part where it says Car Door, that part could be mine.
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  14. Cowlike

    Cowlike New Member

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    Isn't the blue sky the correct one ? The cloud sheets are both translucent
     
  15. Diehard

    Diehard New Member

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    I asume that the blue sky is the wrong one seeing the fact the 2nd and 3rd cloudlayer and the green/blue lighting is there. The green/blue lighting only works if it can reflect of the lower clouds. And i doubt a mapper makes such a complicated construction if its invisible ingame.


    And the whole setup points to the dark clouds. You can see the moon/planet behind the clouds, and the lightning emphasises the planet/moon behind those.

    To get the blue sky, the mapper only needed to add oné layer of clouds and a generic blue color.

    Instead it has 3 layers of clouds and lighting emphasizing the moon/planet behind it. Its all carefully done to achieve the effect. So its basically common sense the darker clouded version is the correct one.


    And the map DM-Pyramid has a similar problem, the entire structure hangs in middair surrounded by clouds. Theres clouds below you and clouds above you(behind those are stars and nebulas). With D3D the clouds above you are gone completelly, the nebula is gone, and the 2 planets are gone and you can only see stars. Again i doubt the mapper made extra cloudlayers, planets, nebulas that cannot be seen ingame.........


    And a good hint is the MyLevel screenshot that you can see when you choose the map. In that screenshot you can see clouds, planets, nebulas above you ;)


    So yeah, the dark version is the correct one, the lightblue is totally wrong.



    But its cool its an error in the renderer, which means it can be fixed :) Just no timeframe lol.
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    Last edited: Sep 7, 2009

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