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SkaarjMaster's computer update thread

Discussion in 'Hardware, Software & Troubleshooting' started by SkaarjMaster, Nov 27, 2008.

  1. SkaarjMaster

    SkaarjMaster enemy of time

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    Some Silverstone and PCP&C power supplies are reporting the Main Connector as 20+4Pin in the specs shown at newegg. I know it's just a matter of connecting the other 4 pins in the right spot, but could this be an issue? In other words if it came down to 4 PSUs to choose from and two had 20+4pin reported in the specs, then should I just go ahead and eliminate those two from consideration at that point?
     
  2. rAt.8^].bAg

    rAt.8^].bAg Don't eff wid Gkublok

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    Not at all. The 20+4 is fine and works with any 24-pin requirement. If you have a 20-pin mobo - like say my mATX ASRock K7S41GX - you just don't use the 4-pin section.
     
  3. SkaarjMaster

    SkaarjMaster enemy of time

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    One person at newegg said this about the Silverstone DA850 PSU:
    "Single rail is better than two because all power availible is used and none is wasted like with two rails." This has 70A on +12V rail.

    Also, the Enermax Galaxy 850W has comments like "strange power distribution" and "cables are too short". I guess this PSU has five +12V rails and each only has 24A for a total of 120A. The cables too short comment surprises me because traditionally Enermax has always had longer cables than others. Some really strange comments about power consumption with the Enermax as well along the lines of having to switch power outlets and GFCI tripping and things like that. Wouldn't this happen with a lot of the PSUs over 750 or 800W? Hmmmmmm.......

    EDIT: another comment I found:
    "another thing to consider here is if your that concerned with it dropping to 11.71 THEN STAY AWAY FROM MODULAR CABLING, modular cabling creates 1 more connection in the power scheme which INCREASES resistence and therfore will leave wide open the possibility of a +12V rail dropping to its low in range as well as make it harder to deliver it's max range voltage, ANY modular cabling PS will have the same problem"

    Also, just read the reviews at newegg about the Enermax Infiniti 720W and some people said cheap modular connectors and more than one person said the cables can be short. I'm thinking the deal with the cables is because they're modular and the Enermax 550W I have now isn't modular and the cables are really long, which is great for my full-tower case. Enermax seems to be getting slammed in these reviews, but that might be because people are still pissed off with the Liberty line. So far, Silverstone seems to be taking a very slight lead over Enermax, but I haven't finished comparing yet or started this thread again at some hardware sites.
     
    Last edited: Dec 4, 2008
  4. rAt.8^].bAg

    rAt.8^].bAg Don't eff wid Gkublok

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    I'm telling ya SM, if you listen to some of those fools on newegg's "reviews" you'll end up as wack as they are. Many of them have already bought the mfg's hype, and don't realize the marketing gimmickry to sell product. And when most of them can't spell even simple words that my 9 year old could 5 years ago, you know they ain't too fockin' bright.

    In today's bullsh!t advert-ridden world, you need to educate yourself and learn how to read between the lines.


    The Silverstone (or any like it) is no better or worse for having a big "single rail" than others with "multi-rails". I explained some of the rail issue earlier, and there's that link too. It's a long article but pick out the parts you need and read those.

    If your rig doesn't pull all the amps a rail can supply, no matter what amps the rail is rated for or how many rails, then it never gets used. It's not "wasted", it just has the potential to deliver power when called upon.

    What wastes power in a PSU is inefficiency in converting the power from the wall to your PC - the less efficient a PSU is, the more energy is given off as heat, at ANY level of power drawn at any given time. The facts are the exact opposite of what that numbskull said!


    But like I said, in reality some of those 5 rails are tied together inside, making effectively 2 or 3 larger amperage "rails" than 24A. The cables on my PSU are a tad short but I have a tall server case. In many other cases they'll fit no prob, but you have to be the judge of that. It depends too on where the jacks are on your mobo and the PSU on top or bottom. The only cable that is a bit tight in this set up is the 8-pin ATX12V1.

    If someone's outlet doesn't supply enough amperage for a big PSU and trips breakers, then that's not the PSU's fault. Or sometimes a house (or a room or a certain outlet) will have a lousy ground, or the neutral is tied off in some strange way, or they have a noisy/dirty line, or too high or low voltage, etc. People don't realize it, but that can kill a PSU before anything, but they blame the PSU not knowing that their AC is sh!t. I'm not sure about the Galaxies, but the Infinitis don't tolerate too much goofy AC before the PowerGuard kicks in (which is a good thing).

    EDIT: Also, I'm plugged into a TrippLite SU1000XLa double conversion UPS, which converts incoming AC to DC, then back to pure sine wave AC 120V/60Hz output, not the simulated square wave AC that most UPS's put out. So my PSU is protected from all kinds of crap like harmonic distortion, electrical impulses, and frequency fluctuations. Makes a big difference for your stuff to last longer and work better. The Infiniti's PowerGuard will probably never have to be triggered since it gets a really nice AC feed all the time, even when the grid goes down. I've had this PSU on nearly 24/7 for 18 months, running 3 different rigs now, and nary a hiccup. 8^ )

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Dec 5, 2008
  5. rAt.8^].bAg

    rAt.8^].bAg Don't eff wid Gkublok

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    Yeah the damned things aren't cheap, but it's the best thing I ever bought for a PC. Hell, you buy it once and it lasts almost forever, just replace the batt every 3-5 years or so. Also use them on my audio & video systems. I've had the 'regular' UPSs but the double-conversion models are great.
     
    Last edited: Dec 5, 2008
  6. SkaarjMaster

    SkaarjMaster enemy of time

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    I was thinking of getting a UPS system or two this time around, but it's looking like I won't be able to get a small and inexpensive one or two. I may have as many as 4 computers with one router and one cable modem, receiver, and large subwoofer. Nothing on UPS now and I've never had problems with stuff dying because of power surges, but you never know. I do have surge protector strips that stuff is plugged into though and none of my computers run 24/7.

    Also, I'm down to 9 PSU choices now (2-Enermax, 7-Silverstone). I've eliminated all the PCP&C PSUs because of only one(1) 80mm fan; although a couple had other reasons. Is this bad? I think all of these will work fine with my system, but it's going to come down to modular vs. non-modular, single +12V rail vs. multiple +12V rails, which ones have some specs that don't drive me away for my use of the computer, and possibly price a little bit. Right now I'm leaning toward a single +12V rail and non-modular, so that would eliminate both Enermax PSUs and this would be the first build for myself without an Enermax PSU; although, I do like the 135mm fan on the Infiniti 720W.

    Interesting link:
    http://www.computer-juice.com/forums/f40/unofficial-power-supply-rankings-14076
     
    Last edited: Dec 5, 2008
  7. RaptoR

    RaptoR been here far too long

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    January. And they're coming out with a dual-chip version first, to win back the performance crown from ATI. Think GeForce GX2 280. Of course, this new card will sell for silly money, but it might mean that the GTX 280 will suddenly become more affordable over the next month or so.
     
  8. SkaarjMaster

    SkaarjMaster enemy of time

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    "the GTX 280 will suddenly become more affordable over the next month or so"

    That's the part that makes me smile.:)
     
  9. rAt.8^].bAg

    rAt.8^].bAg Don't eff wid Gkublok

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    Well if you're going to have that many PCs going at once and want to protect them properly, it'll cost quite a bit. Maybe you can get a decent UPS just for your main rig, and high quality surge suppressors for the others? I highly recommend the TrippLite's. They are well-designed and built, no BS products. Not as expensive as you think when you consider the $$ a lot of us have in our rigs.



    As Skakruk said, 8cm fans aren't the best if you're looking to keep noise to a minimum, (unless it's something like a well-implemented PWM 8cm). No reason today to use them in mid to high powered units, given all of the excellent PSU's now that have larger and quieter fans.

    It sounds to me like you're succumbing to the PCP&C (and perhaps Silverstone) hype about non-modular and single 12V rails. You should note the many modular and/or multi-rail designs that have been very successful. I don't think they'd be around too long if they truly were inferior designs.

    We've spoken about how multi-rails are in many units actually combined, and that getting the correct amount and type of connections for your particular rig is what's most important. When I go to buy a PSU, whether multi or single rail has very little if any bearing on my decision.

    The crap about modulars having too much resistance or some such is generally just that - bullsh!t - and it's been mainly put out by companies such as PCP&C who seem as though they don't want to spend the R&D $$ to change/update their designs. (I've had this debate on other sites before) The mfg's of modulars figure in whatever resistance that the modular connectors might add to the final output at the end of the leads, and the voltage is adjusted to compensate. This is such an overhyped non-issue, but of course you can choose to believe whatever you want.

    I would advise looking at the actual tested values for the various PSUs you're considering, and see for yourself just how wrong the non-modular FUD-sters really are.


    I've seen lists like that before, and TBH, I don't know where or how these guys come up with their info to base them on. Again, it looks to me like so much fanboyism, or simply guys who don't know how to judge real-world, properly tested, empirical specs and parts scrutiny, not just manufacturer's published specs. The two don't always jibe.

    I'll take just a few examples that I know of. First, they put the Galaxies in "Tier 1", yet the Infinitis in "Tier 2", apparently based mainly on price, but also giving the impression that the "Tier 1" models are inherently superior. Well, the Galaxies and Infinitis have the same parts and similar design, it's just that the Infinitis are lower powered (650w & 720w) compared to the Galaxies (850w & 1000w), so naturally they will be lower cost. By their system, the Infinitis should be in some kind of "Tier Z": "Less Powerful Than Tier 1 Zippy Units...but they're still Zippys"; ie - "Less Powerful Than Tier 1 Galaxy Units...but they're still top-end Enermax's".

    Lame. :rolleyes:

    In fact, Infiniti is a newer design than Galaxy, since they came out after the Galaxy line and have large fans, CoolGuard, and PowerGuard features that Galaxy does not.

    Second, there is no good reason for units such as the PCP&Cs and Zippys to be that much higher priced than other similar power rated "Tier 2" models like Infinitis, Corsair HXs, and Zalman ZMs for example, since to my knowledge, those "Tier 2" models are as well built (and have equal or better measured specs) as the "Tier 1" Zippys and PCP&Cs. IMO, both the Zippys and PCP&Cs are overpriced.

    At the time before I finally decided on the the I-720, I had bought and used various models: the Antec Quattro 850, CoolerMaster Real Power Pro 850, PCP&C Silencer 750, and Zippy Emacs GSM-6600. All of them didn't meet my requirements for one reason or another. The Antec's voltage regulation was too near or exceeded the 3% variation margin; the CM's enormous, non-modular wire bundle was an octopus, even in my Stacker case; the PCP&P was anything but "silent"; the Zippy was also fairly loud and its noise & ripple measurements were not the greatest, especially considering its cost. All 4 of those units were RMA'ed. Then I got the I-720 which had none of those issues, so I kept it.

    Somewhere on the link I gave you to Hardware Secrets, they give a list of sites that do the best testing on PSUs, and I tend to agree. Check those out before you decide.
     
    Last edited: Dec 6, 2008
  10. SkaarjMaster

    SkaarjMaster enemy of time

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    Yeh, I'll do all that, I was just stating how I'm leaning. What I'm trying to do is get some CFM and dBA info in the fans used in the PSUs, but PCP&C are the only ones that state this in their specs; although, I've been able to get some from pics that show the fan serial no.
     
  11. rAt.8^].bAg

    rAt.8^].bAg Don't eff wid Gkublok

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    You have to realize though that what the mfg's publish for noise and even CFM specs are often quite different from what the unit does in the real world, under load and heat stress. I generally ignore the fan portions of their specs, and instead rely on good benchtesting reviews and somewhat on subjective opinions (with a grain of salt) - to decide on what's acceptable fan noise and what's not.
     
  12. rAt.8^].bAg

    rAt.8^].bAg Don't eff wid Gkublok

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  13. rAt.8^].bAg

    rAt.8^].bAg Don't eff wid Gkublok

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    Yeah, these phucknobs are getting dumber by the minute. :B
     
  14. Darkdrium

    Darkdrium 20% Cooler

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    It's not over... :D

    Anyways, whatever computer you get SkaarjMaster, it looks like a nice one :)
    I'm having a problem with mine occasionally so I may post here about it if it ever happens again (But in another thread) 'cause it looks like some of you guys know stuff about computers ;)
     
  15. rAt.8^].bAg

    rAt.8^].bAg Don't eff wid Gkublok

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    How's things there in Canuckistan? Hey you're only 225 miles N of me.
     
  16. Forgetful

    Forgetful Here is party?

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    As far a PSU goes I would recommend PC Power & Cooling. I can't rave enough about their power supplies. They're just fantastic. The new PSUs come with a 7 year warranty as well. I've bought cheap power supplies before and paid the price.

    I have a PCP&C 620w Silencer.

    This is my rig.

    Cooler Master 690 Stacker
    4 120mm Noctua Fans
    Asus Striker II Formula
    Intel Q9550 @ 2.8 Ghz w Zalman CNPS 9500 CPU Cooler
    8 GB Dual Channel A-Data RAM

    Nvida 9800 GX2
    Creative X-Fi Platinum w/ front drive bay

    Asus DVDR multi Drive
    LG Blu Ray/ HD Super Drive
    Wester Digital 200GB Caviar HDD
    Externtal Segate 250GB USB HDD

    2 x Samsung T2200 22" Widescreen monitors

    I run it hard doing everything from Games to Batch rendering with Maya. It has always ran super. All that on a 610 watt CPU with no loss in performance is enough of a sign for me.

    PC Power and cooling ftw.
     
    Last edited: Dec 7, 2008
  17. SkaarjMaster

    SkaarjMaster enemy of time

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    Took a quick trip through the hardware secrets site tonight.

    Looks like they really like the PCP&C Silencer 750Quad PSU, but I didn't see reviews of any others I'm considering.

    Also, it looks like I may consider another Enermax PSU before I order anything if it's released in time.
    http://www.hardwaresecrets.com/news/3427
     
  18. rAt.8^].bAg

    rAt.8^].bAg Don't eff wid Gkublok

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    Another competent PSU reviewer is jonnyguru.com He did a test of the Silencer 750 and came away with pretty much the same impression as I did with the one I had here.

    Those Enermax Rev's I totally forgot about or I might have steered you towards them as another option. I saw a test/review of one somewhere (not sure which model) but I don't recall where now. I think the efficiency of that one was very good, in the high 80's and even 90% at some wattage levels. Maybe you can Google it? I'd imagine the Rev's replacing the Infinitis and Galaxies as Enermax's top offerings now. Funny how they changed the name of CoolGuard to HeatGuard. :confused: lol

    One thing's for sure - PSUs are getting more and more efficient as the mfg's start to realize greener is the way to go.

    Considering the Revs (if they turn out to be as good a series as the I's & G's), if I had to buy a mid to larger PSU right now for my main personal rig they would be on my very short list, as well as the Antec Signature 650 and 850 (probably the only models right now with 8cm fans I would even consider, but it's a well-implemented PWM so it shouldn't be too loud under most normal loads and bottom-mounted).
     
    Last edited: Dec 7, 2008
  19. SkaarjMaster

    SkaarjMaster enemy of time

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  20. rAt.8^].bAg

    rAt.8^].bAg Don't eff wid Gkublok

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    I think that was the review I saw. Welp, there's a lot to like here so far. When we see some of the other better testing sites get a chance to run some of the other models through the wringer (those that have the equipment & expertise to properly load a PSU under test), and if they have very similar real-world specs as the 1050w unit in the AnandTech review, then the Revolution's should be a great bunch of PSUs and Enermax will again be kicking all serious forms of ass.

    One of the nicest things on this 1050w model IMO is the very high efficiency (best efficiency I've seen on a 1000 watter really) which means lower electric bills & cool running > low fan noise + longer life. The efficiency is 3%-7% better than my I-720 in the range that I use most (about 240w - 470w). :notworthy:

    Then you have decent regulation & ripple specs, and boucoup connections + modular. The case and cables look great too. I'm anxious to see the real numbers on the 850w and 950w models.
     

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