Should Epic repeat the 2k3 -> 2k4 history again to save UT3?
- Thread starter Mircea
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I've played around with the UI interface in UT3 for a mutator menu. It's a complete bloody nightmare, and about 100 times more complex than it should be.
Very long posts here. Lot of thought put into this.
It must be hard to find completely new gametypes and weapons that people will like.
I miss the Ripper and I would like to see some innovative new weapons and gametypes. I even miss the Lightning gun. Sometimes even the flame thrower and that energy stream weapon from Unreal II.
It must be hard to find completely new gametypes and weapons that people will like.
I miss the Ripper and I would like to see some innovative new weapons and gametypes. I even miss the Lightning gun. Sometimes even the flame thrower and that energy stream weapon from Unreal II.
Slightly less TL;DR
For the record, I want to see UT3 being supported for a while. I don't want it to be dropped as soon as MSUC is over. Talking about UT4 is worth a thread of its own.
Mons, I too think that a UI overhaul is too much to ask for, but new content is certainly something to expect.
An Editor's Choice Edition, more focus on the community, and some type of advertising (not on TV!) would be my reasonable expectations for UT3. I would particularly like to see more custom meshes and materials coming from new content (i.e. more base materials for mappers to work with) and a new gametype. While a total UI overhaul is something I've never seen in a game, major changes to the UI are doable and I'm sure Epic is working on this.
As far as making content that people will universally like, that's not going to happen. Someone is going to hate it. I really wouldn't care too much what Epic makes in terms of bonus content, as long as it's new. Did anyone really ask for vehicles called Cicidas, SPMAs, and Paladins in their bonus content wishlist for UT2k4? No. It's not about what Epic makes, it's just that they make it and make it work.
Finally, I want to reiterate that it's far too early to discuss a new UT. Improvements to what's already here is a more prevalent subject.
For the record, I want to see UT3 being supported for a while. I don't want it to be dropped as soon as MSUC is over. Talking about UT4 is worth a thread of its own.
Mons, I too think that a UI overhaul is too much to ask for, but new content is certainly something to expect.
An Editor's Choice Edition, more focus on the community, and some type of advertising (not on TV!) would be my reasonable expectations for UT3. I would particularly like to see more custom meshes and materials coming from new content (i.e. more base materials for mappers to work with) and a new gametype. While a total UI overhaul is something I've never seen in a game, major changes to the UI are doable and I'm sure Epic is working on this.
As far as making content that people will universally like, that's not going to happen. Someone is going to hate it. I really wouldn't care too much what Epic makes in terms of bonus content, as long as it's new. Did anyone really ask for vehicles called Cicidas, SPMAs, and Paladins in their bonus content wishlist for UT2k4? No. It's not about what Epic makes, it's just that they make it and make it work.
Finally, I want to reiterate that it's far too early to discuss a new UT. Improvements to what's already here is a more prevalent subject.
Yeah I agree, Im just sticking with the topic which is repeating history which for me 2k3->2k4 just means a sequel which has the content from the previous game in there. It doesnt really mean a title one year apart from the first one 
More content is on its way Im sure, we have got one bonus pack already so it wouldnt surprise me if theres more in the way of maps and perhaps acouple of characters
The thing for me though is that its not even worth Epics time really, supporting a UI which is as useless as the current one, now that might be harsh but thats just the way I see it. Making mutator UI's of my own Ive had a **** time, the annoying thing is the community is like oh UI option this n that like its easy, its not and it gets my back up alittle. The current UI system is half done and Ive seen plenty of evidence to support this and Ive also said until the base system is completed any work put into it is kinda lost. It should be and will be alot easier so Im kinda of the opinion Epic should abandon the UI but not UT3, thing with that is its leaving alot of people out in the cold but from what Ive discussed the engine will not be upgraded only patched by maintenance crews at Epic.
Basically though the UI is in the worst shape we've ever seen, this is beating that horse but I dont do it often, its not just whats on the surface though its what people can do with it. Now sure SolidSnake is doing his thing and making a great UI replacement but there is a hit that uscript has over native code so no matter how much optimization is done the UI wont be as fast as what Epic could do with native code. With the engine being constantly upgraded and worked on and with the current UT engine build being locked down Epic basically screwed themselves, what they could do is get the latest UI and try to back port to the UT3 engine version but that could take more time than reworking it for a new title later on.
Knowing what I know about the UI though Im wondering is it even worth my time to support the current one at all for a MSUC TC entry since the ultimate prize is an UE3 license where you get access to the lastest builds. Whats it worth making a speccy UI just to have to re-write it "if" you win you know, thats where I stand. So unless Epic decides to backport the UI code or get a team of coders in to work hard at actually fixing something worth fixing in UT3, Im going to stay from UI work as much as I can
Trouble is any ECE or more content whatever is still going to be tied down by the same UI, we've heard the screams about it but Epic is the only one who can do a decent custom gametype menu as it stands. If they add a new gametype kewl but Id much rather see them work out things so modders can add custom gametypes properly. Going into a new game with this extra modder support, Epic can add whatever gametypes they want without worrying about mod support since its in place.
I dunno, more dead horse and war drums but Ive seen first hand in the source the limitations of the UI, Im not talking from a gamer perspective at all! The most annoying thing for a modder though would be to say oh you have to download this mod to use the UI correctly, its either that or support both and supporting one is bad enough as it is. Its certainly workable but I had this crazy thought that UE3 was about taking load off the coder not creating extra work for them
More content is on its way Im sure, we have got one bonus pack already so it wouldnt surprise me if theres more in the way of maps and perhaps acouple of characters
The thing for me though is that its not even worth Epics time really, supporting a UI which is as useless as the current one, now that might be harsh but thats just the way I see it. Making mutator UI's of my own Ive had a **** time, the annoying thing is the community is like oh UI option this n that like its easy, its not and it gets my back up alittle. The current UI system is half done and Ive seen plenty of evidence to support this and Ive also said until the base system is completed any work put into it is kinda lost. It should be and will be alot easier so Im kinda of the opinion Epic should abandon the UI but not UT3, thing with that is its leaving alot of people out in the cold but from what Ive discussed the engine will not be upgraded only patched by maintenance crews at Epic.
Basically though the UI is in the worst shape we've ever seen, this is beating that horse but I dont do it often, its not just whats on the surface though its what people can do with it. Now sure SolidSnake is doing his thing and making a great UI replacement but there is a hit that uscript has over native code so no matter how much optimization is done the UI wont be as fast as what Epic could do with native code. With the engine being constantly upgraded and worked on and with the current UT engine build being locked down Epic basically screwed themselves, what they could do is get the latest UI and try to back port to the UT3 engine version but that could take more time than reworking it for a new title later on.
Knowing what I know about the UI though Im wondering is it even worth my time to support the current one at all for a MSUC TC entry since the ultimate prize is an UE3 license where you get access to the lastest builds. Whats it worth making a speccy UI just to have to re-write it "if" you win you know, thats where I stand. So unless Epic decides to backport the UI code or get a team of coders in to work hard at actually fixing something worth fixing in UT3, Im going to stay from UI work as much as I can
Trouble is any ECE or more content whatever is still going to be tied down by the same UI, we've heard the screams about it but Epic is the only one who can do a decent custom gametype menu as it stands. If they add a new gametype kewl but Id much rather see them work out things so modders can add custom gametypes properly. Going into a new game with this extra modder support, Epic can add whatever gametypes they want without worrying about mod support since its in place.
I dunno, more dead horse and war drums but Ive seen first hand in the source the limitations of the UI, Im not talking from a gamer perspective at all! The most annoying thing for a modder though would be to say oh you have to download this mod to use the UI correctly, its either that or support both and supporting one is bad enough as it is. Its certainly workable but I had this crazy thought that UE3 was about taking load off the coder not creating extra work for them
All good things come in Moderation
Well, they're still working on the UI. It's one of the first things you see on the the UT3 forum.
As to whether this is abandoning the UI for a new one or trying to tweak the current interface to a better state is something only the people at Epic Games know and are able to do.
Agreed that making the UT3 more modifiable is a keystone that needs to be placed into the game.
Well, they're still working on the UI. It's one of the first things you see on the the UT3 forum.
As to whether this is abandoning the UI for a new one or trying to tweak the current interface to a better state is something only the people at Epic Games know and are able to do.
Agreed that making the UT3 more modifiable is a keystone that needs to be placed into the game.
Well they might be working on it but as I said Ive heard that there wont be engine upgrades only maintenance by the engine team or something to that effect since UT3's engine code was locked upon release. They can certainly add whatever they like to it but as long as they have an updated engine laying around... you know
I'm with ya there Mons. Making the UI work better for modders to integrate their mods/mutators into the game should be a bigger priority than making a "prettier" UI. This makes just as much sense from an end user's standpoint, as any upgrades in this area makes it easier to use custom mutators and gametypes to their fullest extent without INI hacking. Sure, I've said it before and I'll say it again, the only real UT player uses the INIs more than the menu. However, in the real world, only a small percentage of users go that route.
Personally speaking, I am with hope that Epic will publish an updated demo and eventually an updated "version" of UT3, perhaps called UT3 Extended or some such. They could include some of the better community made mods, mutators and maps, as well as an updated UI. (No, it wouldn't have to be UW2, but if THAT were perfected for the game and made to be the actual game UI it would make a lot of us very happy indeed.) Those two measures, new demo and release of the game, should give the PC community the jump start it appears to need. As a caveat, any new content should be downloadable free content to current owners of UT3 retail.
Personally speaking, I am with hope that Epic will publish an updated demo and eventually an updated "version" of UT3, perhaps called UT3 Extended or some such. They could include some of the better community made mods, mutators and maps, as well as an updated UI. (No, it wouldn't have to be UW2, but if THAT were perfected for the game and made to be the actual game UI it would make a lot of us very happy indeed.) Those two measures, new demo and release of the game, should give the PC community the jump start it appears to need. As a caveat, any new content should be downloadable free content to current owners of UT3 retail.
Yeah basically what I mean if I didnt make it clear, thought I would just elborate some of this incase people get me wrong, is in abandoning the current UI is getting a new updated system in place and then updating the UI on that. Theres no point adding to the top layer until the bottom layer is fixed up, I dont really care about the art or which ever features are missing at this point.
Getting the system in place at all costs should be priority and then fixing any bugs with said system. From there Epic can answer the calls of people for things like bot rosters or brightskin buttons on the UI, adding that to the current UI will only add complexity for porting the UI over to an updated system. Thats not to say it will make it much harder but for every additional feature theres more work involved so yes, added time, more wasted time. Thats kinda what Ive been trying to say all along, I guess I just didnt find the right words until now.
For one as of the 1.3 patch numerical edit boxes can be placed from the editor, so no one using the editor could have placed these even Epic I dont think. Any widgets that might have been of those types would have been something else like a slider (which I dont think support floats fully) so as you can see this is a prime eg of what Im talking about. Building on this will only bring more bugs or instabilities (or just plain subpar work) unless those are fixed first, I dont even think the Weapon Arena mutator menu works properly still in 1.3. I cant be sure because Im running 1.2 but I dont remember seeing it in the changelogs.
One of the biggest problem I see though is with the way datastores are accessed and the fact the datastore client is called in engine.engine, well thats not a huge problem but theres UT3 specific stores called from within there. For some reason you need a bit of code to go with your mutator, whats called a frontend bit of code, whys that even required? Is it not possible to manipulate the store from a kismet like script stored with the GUI? Maybe thats where the system was heading, maybe thats where its at and UT3 is living in the past, who knows.
One thing I do know is while UT2k4's hooks might have been messy or whatever atleast they worked! Right now the UT3 game settings menu is perfectly capable of generating a set of options from an ini and a small bit of source but it doesnt work. Also a similar system should be in place for mutators instead of making a whole GUI page outright, for simple mutators with acouple of checkboxes it takes alot longer than it should to setup, it is as simple as copy/paste for the most part but you got the size overhead as well.
Anyways, to say the base system has alot of potential and does not need to be replaced (like 2k3->2k4) is where Im at. It just needs to be complete and with Epic dedicating their primary resources to Gears 2 and UE3 upgrades I have little hope that we'll see any major advancements on the UT3 engine build in a hurry. It might sound alittle pessimistic but as long as Epic is bogged down with this "we need X feature on the UI" the real problem is going by under the radar with every patch we receive.
So with that I hope its made a few of you guys think about why Im so against certain things, its not necessarily because I disagree its because my priorities are a fair bit different
Getting the system in place at all costs should be priority and then fixing any bugs with said system. From there Epic can answer the calls of people for things like bot rosters or brightskin buttons on the UI, adding that to the current UI will only add complexity for porting the UI over to an updated system. Thats not to say it will make it much harder but for every additional feature theres more work involved so yes, added time, more wasted time. Thats kinda what Ive been trying to say all along, I guess I just didnt find the right words until now.
For one as of the 1.3 patch numerical edit boxes can be placed from the editor, so no one using the editor could have placed these even Epic I dont think. Any widgets that might have been of those types would have been something else like a slider (which I dont think support floats fully) so as you can see this is a prime eg of what Im talking about. Building on this will only bring more bugs or instabilities (or just plain subpar work) unless those are fixed first, I dont even think the Weapon Arena mutator menu works properly still in 1.3. I cant be sure because Im running 1.2 but I dont remember seeing it in the changelogs.
One of the biggest problem I see though is with the way datastores are accessed and the fact the datastore client is called in engine.engine, well thats not a huge problem but theres UT3 specific stores called from within there. For some reason you need a bit of code to go with your mutator, whats called a frontend bit of code, whys that even required? Is it not possible to manipulate the store from a kismet like script stored with the GUI? Maybe thats where the system was heading, maybe thats where its at and UT3 is living in the past, who knows.
One thing I do know is while UT2k4's hooks might have been messy or whatever atleast they worked! Right now the UT3 game settings menu is perfectly capable of generating a set of options from an ini and a small bit of source but it doesnt work. Also a similar system should be in place for mutators instead of making a whole GUI page outright, for simple mutators with acouple of checkboxes it takes alot longer than it should to setup, it is as simple as copy/paste for the most part but you got the size overhead as well.
Anyways, to say the base system has alot of potential and does not need to be replaced (like 2k3->2k4) is where Im at. It just needs to be complete and with Epic dedicating their primary resources to Gears 2 and UE3 upgrades I have little hope that we'll see any major advancements on the UT3 engine build in a hurry. It might sound alittle pessimistic but as long as Epic is bogged down with this "we need X feature on the UI" the real problem is going by under the radar with every patch we receive.
So with that I hope its made a few of you guys think about why Im so against certain things, its not necessarily because I disagree its because my priorities are a fair bit different
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If Epic really is working on a new UI I applaud them. I absolutely loved UT3 despite its problems, but lack of basic functionality is what killed it for me. Its such a chore to find a server or set one up..and it shouldn't be.
Where did you hear that they were making a new UI?
And btw, this still doesn't excuse Epic from their forum Nazism.
Where did you hear that they were making a new UI?
And btw, this still doesn't excuse Epic from their forum Nazism.
I never said they were working on a new UI! All I know is the engine is under almost constant development, you can see the latest versions in the Gears 2 clips. The UT3 build is a fair bit behind that one apparently and thats all I know. So what I said is in regards to the system not the end user level.
Epic just officially stated on their forums that they aren't going to release a new PC demo.
Sorry guys, they just don't care.
Sorry guys, they just don't care.
So i guess we pack up and move on just because they arent releasing another demo?
I guess they will stop working on the 1.3 patch as well seeing as "they just dont care."
heres an idea how about you packup and move on if your so unhappy with them, go play counterstrike or halo or something instead of continuing to spread your malcontent opinions throughout the forums.
I see now exactly why you would have been banned from the epic forums in the first place
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A Demo won't help UT3 so I agree with Epic that it's not worth the effort.
I just wish Epic could come out and admit that they screwed up and acknowledge the reasons why UT3 was a failure and then pledge to put out a spectacular UT4. However, I'm not sure Epic really understands why UT3 failed nor that they would be willing to make a UT4 that felt the way a PC game should.
I just wish Epic could come out and admit that they screwed up and acknowledge the reasons why UT3 was a failure and then pledge to put out a spectacular UT4. However, I'm not sure Epic really understands why UT3 failed nor that they would be willing to make a UT4 that felt the way a PC game should.
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Dark Pulse
Dolla, Dolla. Holla, Holla.
Oh go cry me a ****ing river. Seriously.
"Boo hoo hoo, they won't release an updated demo, they don't care!"
With all the **** they've heard in the last seven months, they've had more than enough time to know they messed up on some stuff. They KNOW this. There's lots of things they probably wished they didn't say or do, but nothing can take that back now. They're moving on.
Don't you think it's time for the community to do the same? It's been over SEVEN MONTHS since the game was released and people are bitching about things like THIS?
Damn, I'm glad they don't listen to the community for EVERYTHING. Otherwise we'd get a better demo that is only slightly less buggy and glitchy than the current one.
Whether they keep patching UT3 (which I honestly hope they will do) or end up doing a UT3.5, either way, it will be good for everyone in the end. It might not be what you want, when you want it, but if Epic can do it, they will do it. UT2004 became its own product pretty much because they had to break UT2003 to do it, along with a number of other small reasons. I don't foresee any "breaking" that would need to occur for UT3 for things to be perfect, but only time will tell.
In conclusion...
Now let's move the hell on already!
LOLOL VeHaklz etc.Oh go cry me a ****ing river. Seriously.
"Boo hoo hoo, they won't release an updated demo, they don't care!"
With all the **** they've heard in the last seven months, they've had more than enough time to know they messed up on some stuff. They KNOW this. There's lots of things they probably wished they didn't say or do, but nothing can take that back now. They're moving on.
Don't you think it's time for the community to do the same? It's been over SEVEN MONTHS since the game was released and people are bitching about things like THIS?
Damn, I'm glad they don't listen to the community for EVERYTHING. Otherwise we'd get a better demo that is only slightly less buggy and glitchy than the current one.
Whether they keep patching UT3 (which I honestly hope they will do) or end up doing a UT3.5, either way, it will be good for everyone in the end. It might not be what you want, when you want it, but if Epic can do it, they will do it. UT2004 became its own product pretty much because they had to break UT2003 to do it, along with a number of other small reasons. I don't foresee any "breaking" that would need to occur for UT3 for things to be perfect, but only time will tell.
In conclusion...
Now let's move the hell on already!
That's right.
Everything's wrong with UT3 is more ore less a bug that can be fixed with a couple o pathes.
Just add
- the bot roster,
- a better UI (that means: let it save the configuration, add new graphic options, remove confirmations, and expand the map name window - I like the design)
- fix bugs regarding AI (bots trying to shoot through walls or not hitting the node/turret, and not attacking the core, and not attacking Powersurge centre node)
And then I'm ok with it, UT3 will be my favourite game, 10/10, the best of the series.
UT2004 has added a whole new idea, the vehicles gametype. It was a revolution for a foot-based shooter.
What can they add in UT4 to make it worth being a game on his own?
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