Should all maps have path nodes?

[difool2]

[Rant mode on]

I realize I kind of started a sort of stink in the comments of this map:

http://nalicity.beyondunreal.com/map_hub.php?mid=8844

But I hope, as an offline player, that you can understand my viewpoint. Imagine
seeing great-looking screenies of a map, followed user comments which are
complementary if not estatic. You DL the map eagerly, load her up, only to
find your just bots standing around looking lost (if not lobotomized)-no path
nodes! After the umpteenth time this happens, you almost are ready to go
looking for a sharp axe with an evil intent in your eyes.

Understand that I have just about every UT99 bot model ever made, with
special emphasis on those which would be considered "humorous" (Bender,
Homer, Mr. Burns, Tom Servo, etc.), with voicepacks to match (and even
finished one last night, Tweety Bird). I usually play with non default weapons
(Rockets UT, Covert Ops 4, U4ET) and non-default gametypes (Carry the
Flag, Assassins, Jailbreak: Assassins is the mod I often use on sniper maps).
If it weren't for the often-hilarious bots, voice-clips, and sadistically perverse
weapons, I would have stopped playing UT years ago, but the humor keeps
the experience fresh.

Thus I have little interest in playing online, and given the limitations/
constraints involved in opening a dedicated server will all these mods (be it
me or some other lunatic-huge DL time before the game will start ya know) I
can't really without taking away the reason why I play UT in the first place.

While I haven't made any maps, I know what I like and have gotten familiar
enough with UE to know how easy (or not) something is. So the excuse
that "I couldn't be bothered to make pathnodes sorry online only!" just seems
really lame: I translate this to mean "offline players go &^*@ yourselves."
After you let UE make the nodes for you it doesn't seem all that hard to move
them around and optimize the bots' behavior-certainly it is easier than getting
all the lighting and shadowing right and eliminating pesky HOMs and so on.

[Rant mode off]

 

[ReD_Fist]

I agree with you, all maps should be finished, wich includes bot paths, but you changed it to a 1 so who cares.
People are not forced to send thier stuff, remember the gong show? hehe.

And wich bugs me is when people are selfrightous and say don't post a zero or whatever the issue, but they go on about it, but then they don't have any balls to put down a number , a score number.

oh, having ued make the pathnodes it as lame as leaving them out.hey go try my trenchdog map once, set the bots to adept, and let me know how they do.

 

[NeoNite]

No. Some maps are specifically created for online play.
Sometimes the lay-out just won't cater to botplay.

And you can't rate maps like these, if you don't play on sniper/whatever servers etc... can't comment on the gameplay.
So you can't fully rate it,imho.

On the other hand, there are countless of ok/good/nice maps which have bot support. And I mean countless...!!!

btw: I also modify my bots a lot. Sometimes there are more custom models present, or custom voices. Favourite models are Aramale (fox, dog and wolf), Jar gual, Conni and bug (this should've been a retail model...damn...)
I've been playing offline for quite a while. But online for 4 years.
(UT, that is)

Not everybody likes bots as much, or the creativity part. Some people just don't bother with getting custom content, no matter how hard you try convincing them hehe..
*shrugs* =) That's ok with me.

Got a little OT, but what the hell...

 

[Hourences]

Bots and things like music should always be in. Its more logic to try and reach an as wide as possible audience so therefor you need to support and include as many different things. If you worked weeks on a map and that 1 hour of extra work is too much for you youre just stupid. Sign of quality and of a mapper who can finish and stick to his thing.

 

[NeoNite]

Well, I was also targeting monsterhunt maps. Should've added this.
Besides,"online only" maps should remain on servers.

 

[Hourences]

Monsterhunt maps have monsters
Monsters need AI waypoints to function correctly

Only a small number of maps could go without bot paths, all others should have it. Its the same discussion with instagib maps. There is no such thing as an instagib map, theres only something like a mapper who is too lazy to place a couple of guns
Its impossible to rate stuff (review wise) if you start with "because this such type of map it doesnt need element a or b" and then review another map and substract 2 points because apperantly such map DOES need the things according to your own opinion and was lacking them, so -2 for that map..
Its not honest. Use 1 real standard...

 

[NeoNite]

Some people think all monsterhunt maps should have bot support. That's impossible.
I think I've played 7/10 of all excisting mh maps so far. "Sad" truth is that few maps do actually cater towards botplay. Sometimes it's "sad", sometimes it's a good thing. Imho.
But it's a world of difference with default UT maps, course. (and getting a little OT again..)

(I haven't run in that many maps which lacked pathnodes, tbh.
And I'm one hell of a mapwhore. Something in the likes of skaarjmaster, I think...)

Nevertheless, I realise it must be irritating to run into a map you'd love to play, and which has not bot support. But... you shouldn't let that get to you. I mean, there's no need to crap on the author etc and turn into a raging monster etc... exagerating a bit, you get the idea.
You can always nicely ask them to consider adding bot support to their map, so an offline_only player can enjoy his work as well.

I would have stopped playing UT years ago, but the humor keeps
the experience fresh.

Well, I wouldn't have stopped playing UT but the humour bit sure makes the game's appeal an everlasting one. And UT has large potential for humorous situations hehe =)

 

[Eyuva 'S' NRG]

Bots and things like music should always be in. Its more logic to try and reach an as wide as possible audience so therefor you need to support and include as many different things. If you worked weeks on a map and that 1 hour of extra work is too much for you youre just stupid. Sign of quality and of a mapper who can finish and stick to his thing.

Agreed, bots and music should always be included, period. Why is it that people who release sniper maps are too lazy to include pathnodes? LOL-Large Legos did this, and while I gave that map a generous 3 out of 10.

What I actually liked about LOL-Large Legos was the LEGOS, I thought they were cool... But then we have other maps such as Bloody Blocks or David M's 1 on 1 Lego level which are FAR superior to LOL Large Legos.

The faults in LOL Large Legos are too numerous to mention... But I'll mention the most glaring 3, frankly I'm suprised this map is overated by users to high hell.

1) Generic white lighting. (Default lights)
2) No Bot paths
3) No FLOW what SO EVER. Many of the sniper rifles were unreachable without the impact hammer... ****, if I have to impact jump to get a sniper rifle, there's a serious problem with the map.... Let alone, many of the LEGOS have no route to the top of the lego, at least include a ramp or mover to increase flow.

 

[Eyuva 'S' NRG]

No. Some maps are specifically created for online play.
Sometimes the lay-out just won't cater to botplay.

And you can't rate maps like these, if you don't play on sniper/whatever servers etc... can't comment on the gameplay.
So you can't fully rate it,imho.
.

I've played on sniper servers and believe me, I've seen maps that were terrible. I dont think I've seen one good map on a sniper server. I must have played through a couple of dozen of em too.

Sniping servers piss me off, because servers should be running real maps, I want to play REAL custom maps... Stuff by David M, Kami, or Paranoid for example. There are not enough REAL MAP servers and all too much jank IMO.

However, I did play a funny map that had rock music in it that was actually memorable because of that... The track was Ozzy Osborne or something, LOL. It had a horrible all too open layout though, but with the music track is was funny as all hell.

Look, I can go into the editor and pop out a big cube with a couple of hiding spots in 30 minutes tops, we've all seen maps like this, they have no flow and are general boring as all hell.

 

[IndySkyz]

First off let me say that I have played a few sniper maps that pull off good sniper play without losing the feel of a regular map. I agree MOST maps should have botpathing, but there are a few exceptions and thats usually Ueds fault and not the mapper is lazy, example is if the mapper really only wants the map for online play with his buddies and the design of the map does not allow for good bot play.

My opinion on playing bots in any map is its a waste of time, a bots ai although it may seem tough at first, is too predictable thus making playing a bot, wel lame, any smart person can goo the hell out of a few god bots but it gets boring after awhile, online play puts a human factor into games that you can never duplicate with a bot. What sense does it make to make a huge sniper map for online players and then try to botpath it only to find out that the maps design defeats the use of pathnodes, ok so I have botpaths but now you come back and say "these bots play like ****" hence the reason for not botpathing at all.

I do agree tho that if a map is made for online players only it should be stated in the maps description, then nobody should have anything to complain about as they should know already that bots are not going to play this map.

And as for there being no instagib maps just lazy mappers I have to disagree, in most stock maps if you play instgib you will see everyone ends up in the one biggest room of a map thus conncentrating all gameplay to that one room, this is why some insta guys make wide open large room maps for that purpose, would a wide open map thats one room be good for reg weaps play, hell no thats why they only put an insta gib rifle and state its for insta play.
I ont like instagib myself but the few times I did play it I got sick of spawning in a mile away in say Goyhic only to have to run to the minigun room everytime because thats the only place anyone was fighting. Maybe those guys are not lazy just smart, ponder that one for awhile Hourence.

 

[NeoNite]

I've played on sniper servers and believe me, I've seen maps that were terrible. I dont think I've seen one good map on a sniper server. I must have played through a couple of dozen of em too.

Sniping servers piss me off, because servers should be running real maps, I want to play REAL custom maps... Stuff by David M, Kami, or Paranoid for example. There are not enough REAL MAP servers and all too much jank IMO.

I'm not bothered with sniper servers, since I never play there...
And I know how easily you can run into crap maps on servers. It used to give me headache.

Look, I can go into the editor and pop out a big cube with a couple of hiding spots in 30 minutes tops, we've all seen maps like this, they have no flow and are general boring as all hell.

You've just given an almost truthful description of more than half of the custom Monsterhunt maps =(
(- the hiding spots...)

 

[ReD_Fist]

for me big fun is trying to make the bots act unorthadox, and do wierd things that you cant't believe they got you.
Or making them go places wich you wouldn't suspect and use all the movers and gravity zones WITHOUT the use of a translocator, and using the setting on skilled.
I watch the bots to see not only if they get the items or us the lifts or get in and out of cramped areas, but while watching they must be equaly dispersed in individual fights, not all in the areas you think they would propagate.

Making a "sniper" map the bots can act as human, but the geometry will have a nice influence over how they act, like a box map but a few bot gimmicks to suprise you.
And don't get all picky here, I mean by ,geometry, adding things to the box obviously.
I guess thats why I like to botpath because it's frustating, and fun, in ut04 one could make some astounding bot activety, but people rather go for eyecandy crap first.
But between all those scripts and other things allmost any map could pose a cool challenge playing the bots.
Also by using "skilled" as the base setup and making the bots work really snappy, praytell what will happen on adept and above.
Allthough ut04 programers seem to think adept is the normal default for them to work properly, yet another fault over good ol UT.

And if I had an official book on the editor my maps would be a hell of a lot better, I have questions, but people are concentrating on graphics so much that finding official help for really good bot actions is left out in the cold.Sure, pathnodes, liftexits, etc etc, but as in graphics the bot pathing can have creativety, not just connecting the damn lines and calling it good.

I guess I am one who says ALL maps NEED botpathing as a part of the whole picture, not just lighting or sounds or music, and music for me is useless most 99% of the time it erks me that I have to copy over a umx file. (unless the author says to plaese listen)

 

[Eyuva 'S' NRG]

for me big fun is trying to make the bots act unorthadox, and do wierd things that you cant't believe they got you.
Or making them go places wich you wouldn't suspect and use all the movers and gravity zones WITHOUT the use of a translocator, and using the setting on skilled.
I watch the bots to see not only if they get the items or us the lifts or get in and out of cramped areas, but while watching they must be equaly dispersed in individual fights, not all in the areas you think they would propagate.

Hey, if you have any bot pathing tips, send em my way. I know how to do the basics, that is path a level, set up lifts and teleporters, and get bots to impact jump & translocate... but I cant get them to hang out in certain areas... I mean certain map layouts just make killing bots easier than other layouts, and it's not easy because bots just like to hang out in certain areas of the map more than others,

I think adjusting the AI ratings of weapons and powerups can help steer bots, so I keep this in consideration.

 

[ReD_Fist]

well i believe most of my levels i try very hard to have them dispersed fighting, and was very difficult especialy my q1 redos.Of wich were very tricky to botpath, people assume ah it's so easy to add some paths but they are dead wrong.
Sure people can connect the nodes but that in itself is NOT going to make them do or act huminish.
Thanx man but I spend more time on pathing than other things, like weeks for one map,and even then they still arn't up to the way I want them.

 

[Twrecks]

Remember the old addage: "Time is Money". Don't rip the community off by releasing half-ass maps.

Some of the early UT mapping tutorials only had playerstarts and pickups, there was no mention of pathing.
Bot AI is an important aspect of gameplay, as many ppl still are limited to playing against the box due to being ping challenged. If someone chooses not to path... then leave the playerstarts out, otherwise you haven't finished and you are releasing incomplete work.
If you draw the anaolgy to a car, it has to have several basic items to function: it must start, change direction and speed, and stop. If you were to hold only those guidelines to auto maufacturers, there would be no-uniformity, a lack of safety and reliability. But we are lucky we live in a capitalist economy, competition for market share drives builders to cater to the public.
The same is true about maps, even if they are free. In the end, maps have consumers. To only sell to a selected niche does alienate the populus outside that niche, and they will complain/flame/spam.
If you were to give a friend the car you were peicing together and say you didn't have turn signals, a horn or brakes, well they might be a little upset you allowed them to drive it. Same is true of the game community, they are your friends as they share a common interest, however, let them download a map without providing an enjoyable experience and they will be angry because they invested their time without any return.

 

[Eyuva 'S' NRG]

well i believe most of my levels i try very hard to have them dispersed fighting, and was very difficult especialy my q1 redos.Of wich were very tricky to botpath, people assume ah it's so easy to add some paths but they are dead wrong.
Sure people can connect the nodes but that in itself is NOT going to make them do or act huminish.
Thanx man but I spend more time on pathing than other things, like weeks for one map,and even then they still arn't up to the way I want them.

Hey, dont sweat it. Look, in some of my maps, it just seems the bots wont go to certain areas. I think changing the AI rating for weapons might steer the bots better, I'll try that in the next map I make. However I have about 3-4 maps I want to cleap up/update first.

Remember one thing about bots, they KNOW the whole map and where everything is. I remember reading that from one of the original designers. Have you ever seen a bot pace back and forth to wait for a powerup like the leg pads or damage amp. I have. They know it's there, and I know what the bot is doing now. Before I was like what the hell... But now I know the bot isn't having a seizure it's waiting for the powerup, and when it spawns, it will go on it's way.

They do tend to hang out in certain areas, that's true, I suspect this has to do with the weapon/powerup placement.

What annoys me about bots is that sometimes they can glitch out and start walking into a wall, and just keep walking.

 

[IndySkyz]

Well like i said the bots are not human and its a flaw in the way the paths have to be built in Ued, IMO a way to record yourself running and jumping thru the map on your human path and then doing that a bunch of times would make botpathing so much ezier and get them to react more human like.

I have tried to make a couple maps an if you are trying to achieve a certian goal like lets say a tourny map with no health or power ups, this defeats the idea of I'll use a few viles to get the bot to go here, because you dont want any health, this is where the botpathing can become imposible, so you look at it this way, would I want you to make me a car with no turn signals to drive on the road, hell no, but if I was only going to race it at a track would I care if it had blinkers, LOL. Sure its nice to please the community but hell a guy waste 5 or 10 minutes downloading a map that he don't like big deal, the guy who made the map most likely spent alot more time than that and did it all for free.

 

[ReD_Fist]

or if you had an oval track you could have one blinker on all the time hehe,
just funnin.

 

[NeoNite]

Equal rights for bots.

(Name the map)

 

[difool2]

Well like i said the bots are not human and its a flaw in the way the paths have to be built in Ued, IMO a way to record yourself running and jumping thru the map on your human path and then doing that a bunch of times would make botpathing so much ezier and get them to react more human like.

That's a good idea! How hard would it be to build a mod program which does
this? For Nascar Racing 2003 that is basically what you do to make the AI cars
drive the optimal lines through the corners...