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Shield Time Pwnt?!?! W!T?F! Is there no end?

Discussion in 'Unreal Tournament 3' started by TraCK, Feb 10, 2006.

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Power-up timing. Stay or GO.

  1. Keep it the same, I hate change!!!11!!

    24 vote(s)
    40.0%
  2. WTF there is no other option.... N00B!!!11!

    8 vote(s)
    13.3%
  3. We need a new system, watching the clock is teh sukc.

    28 vote(s)
    46.7%
  1. -AEnubis-

    -AEnubis- fps greater than star

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    Goo is definately my leading cause of early round deaths.
     
  2. pine

    pine Official Photography Thread Appreciator

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    Going to reach back onto topic because I don´t have time to read this entire thread.....

    I suggested back when they were getting ready to release UT2004 a fix for the second-counting shield timing: Randomizing shield spawn times. The change would not have to be very big to make it a lot harder to time shields - make them spawn within a five-second interval would be enough; that is to say, give them the same spawn time (55 and 27.5) and randomize the moment when they actually appear within 2.5 seconds before or after the exact 55/27.5 seconds.

    Timing is something you just have to get used to. It´s not necessary to sit there watching the clock 100% of the time, and once you get the hang of it you won´t look at your clock more than once or twice in between each 100 shield. The thing is, as long as there are powerups, people are going to time them. Your only option then would be to take all the powerups out of DM, which would ruin it, and the top players would still probably time weapons. I suppose that´s why there is rocket arena and TAM though, for people that don´t like the resource-hoarding aspect of DM and TDM.
     
  3. HardcorexxX

    HardcorexxX (.)(.)

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    Yeah that was like page 2 of this thread people either dont understand your complicated solution or really jsut want to call themselves a DMer but can't handle timing so they are going to try and change the prefix of TAM to TDM
     
  4. -AEnubis-

    -AEnubis- fps greater than star

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    I don't even miss respawning.
     
  5. Bullet10k

    Bullet10k New Member

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    Goo, especially in TAM, is retarded and annoying and makes games random, especially when you die early just because some noob got a lucky shot where instead we could've used skill and got a nice battle going. kthx
     
  6. -AEnubis-

    -AEnubis- fps greater than star

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  7. BarneyGumball

    BarneyGumball Just Another User

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    I don't play DM (ping reasons) but i guess it would tick me off...

    btw what the hell is TAM...
     
  8. beyndtstng

    beyndtstng New Member

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    I don't remember playing you AEnubis, who were you playing for and what name did you use? I sure your description of our encounter is accurate. I have pretty good primary flak but that is about it from up-close. My movement is pure crap no doubt it, I also use my movement to aim instead of using primarily my mouse so it’s an even trade off I guess.

    Also for those of you who think great TAM players can't play TDM worth a crap I beg to differ. It takes a bit of getting use too but a great TAM player can thrive on TDM if he is put on a smart team who knows how to use him effectively (shout out to pure.gaming :) ).

    I can argue TAM vs. TDM for a good page on this board but I will basically summarize my thoughts here. You can be a great TAM player if you master LG and/or shock along with being at least efficient with some sort of up-close weapon like flak or rockets. To be a good TDM player pub wise you need to be efficient with all weapons, particularly your use of the Assault Rifle and secondary shield. Since you don't have your preferred weapon in TDM most of the time you have to improve your overall skill.

    With that said TAM has more to do with frag power then TDM does. I use to play TAM for 6-8 hours a day. It is very relaxing in a pub atmosphere and even competitively it’s not a drain on me. TDM on the other hand wears me not physically (hell if any game did that then I would be quite out of shape lol) but mentally it takes a lot out of me. This is especially true in the competitive scene where you have to worry about occupying positions, timing weapons and power ups etc.

    In conclusion TAM is great if you just have an urge to relax and play some UT. TAM pub wise basically focuses on an individuals frag power and allows someone to hide most of their weaknesses (like for me movement) by amplifying their strengths (for me aim).

    After playing both game types it’s pretty clear to me that TDM is the more skillful mod. As I mentioned before a great TAM player can thrive in a TDM environment but he has to be really lucky in finding a clan who can use his talents and again masks his weaknesses. While my TDM game is better then it use to be it is still not even near the level of the best TDM'ers out there. There is so much involved in becoming a great TDM player that it is overwhelming to the casual UT player or someone who picks up the game for the first time. Nobody wants to come online and get owned, that would be like going into a test trying to get a C. While some people go into a test hoping for a C they certainly don't try to miss a question on purpose. The point of the analogy is basically TAM has appealed to the casual gamer (which conservatively is about 80 percent of the people who purchase this game to begin with).

    While I do enjoy playing TDM I would much rather play some pub server TAM especially if I am just looking to blow off some steam and have fun without having to be uber serious.

    Oh and BTW to answer the originally topic I think the Shield and power up system is really well defined. I remember reading in the tips Lotus published a while back how if you practice timing enough it will become second nature to you. So players like Lotus, Gimix, and CC probably don't even look at that clock. They have been doing it for so long and so often that they just know where to go (so I am told). What I think would help some of us who haven't played the UT series for a while is actually changing the number between respawns. Say making the 100 shield respawn in 65 instead of 55. Its seems stupid but maybe it will force some of these leet players to recondition themselves. If you don't like power-up timing just play TAM, despite what some people think on these boards there is nothing wrong with liking TAM. In fact the point of a game is to have fun anyway.

    GG my summaries are like 2 chapters :)
     
  9. dXII][Pa

    dXII][Pa FABRICATI DIEM, PVNC

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    Very well put!
     
  10. -AEnubis-

    -AEnubis- fps greater than star

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    Glad to see others agreeing with the fragging skills bit. Objectively too, in that you can survive in tam, and be weak with weapons, whereas in TDM you have to be moderately efficient with everything. It's got it's ups and downs, but since the focus is more on fragging, I do feel there are some skills there that TDM less excercises. I also don't disagree that TDM is a more difficult mod.

    I'm in TçO, TçO«/Enûb¡s» is what I woulda played as. The only time I've actually every played you was in a scrim when you were in .51, which I guess was pretty brief.
     
  11. beyndtstng

    beyndtstng New Member

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    Yea AEnubis I play Assault for 51 and for a while I would play in TAM scrims with them. I play for pure.gaming now but 51 still has a really solid team.

    What I saw a lot of in the two TAM cups I help run over at ClanBase (OpenCup and NationsCup) was that most TDM'ers had a hard time initially adjusting to TAM. Most of the great DM players are use to controlling the important weapons like LG and shock so when they duel with someone they don't have to worry so much about their opponent's hitscan ability. However with TAM everyone starts out with all the weapons and that is why TAM is so frag power dependent. Some people are great with goo and I hate them for it but whatever gets the job done I suppose.

    The most difficult adjustment for hardcore DM/TDM players was their ideology about UT2004 in general. In almost every gametype with UT2004 its okay to die because you just respawn again. I think that is why you see a certain demographic who will ONLY play the UT series as far as the FPS genre is concerned. Games like America's Army and Counter Strike don't let you respawn right after you die, they make you wait until the round is completed. When you watch a great DM'er like Robbe from xTp! play TAM you can see how the traditional ideology for UT does not apply to TAM. DM/TDM players play way too aggressive and die within the first 30 seconds. The man advantage is so important in TAM especially in the competitive scene. No matter how much damage a DM player might dish out it still leaves your team underpowered (like a power play in hockey). This hurts your team because your opponent can do just as much damage with a weapon whether they have 100 health or 2 health. There are rare exceptions to this rule as some people can actually get away with playing like this. Of course once a DM player figures this out they excel in TAM.

    The point is a great TDM player does not make a great TAM player and a great TAM player does not make a great TDM player (wow saying vice versa would of been easier lol). Each game type takes a different set of skills and that is why I think you see people who are either staunch TDM'ers or hardcore TAM'ers. I get tired of people who put down TAM especially from the TDM community. They simply are hating something they really don't understand. You also see some TAM players who do the same thing to TDM. I play both game types and enjoy them both. Maybe the moderator should start with my first post and make this a separate topic as I feel we are a bit off track here. Always fun to talk about this though with people who argue logically instead of emotionally. :D
     
    Last edited: Apr 6, 2006
  12. hal

    hal Dictator Staff Member

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    Excellent posts, beynd.

    Good point, but I went back and looked... these posts are all too intertwined to break apart at this point. It's a hallmark of the BeyondUnreal forums by now. ;)
     
  13. nuttella

    nuttella Scare

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    They could start by getting rid of the pointless time-dilation that makes it 54.65473738 seconds instead of 60 like it's coded.
     
  14. Bullet10k

    Bullet10k New Member

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    dont disagree = agree
     
  15. -AEnubis-

    -AEnubis- fps greater than star

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    Reworded for potential expectation.

    A lot of that stuff, is stuff I've been trying to say from the begining, I knew someone would get it eventually :D

    The point is, the people that are good at both are simply good at UT, it has nothing to do with them being good TDMers. TDM was simply around first.
     
  16. lotus1984

    lotus1984 New Member

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    No if u are good in Tam and bad in dm it means u have good aim skill, good movement skill, nice cohordination but maybe u can't play 200 hours a week to learn to time everything. Pick ups allow a player with less aim and movement skill to defeat a better one. I know this is ok for most ut players so if u disagree ok,it is just my opinion and your opinion, but please don't say thinghs like "it means nwer are good and tamers are noob" or similar, it's just an opinion.
     
  17. Ninja Cat

    Ninja Cat New Member

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    I just read the first couple of posts and decided to put in my 2 cents, so I don't know if this has been said or not. Why the heck not just make a mutator that had the power ups randomly appear. That way whoever wants them to be random can play that way and if you don't like the change don't play with the mutator.
     
  18. MonsOlympus

    MonsOlympus Active Member

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    Agreed! I kinda dont get all the TAM talk in this thread considering it should be about pickups. I guess if people dont like pickups they'll play a mod that doesnt have them.

    I like having to work for my pickups which is why I like no weapon stay probably. It never gets so bad in a game where I cant find atleast one pickup, if I cant find any then I guess Id be camping :( I have gotten better with assualt grenades though.

    Im for moving pickups around the map a bit as well as randomising the spawn times, alot of the maps only have certain areas which get thrashed itd be good to see more movement happening.
     
  19. -AEnubis-

    -AEnubis- fps greater than star

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    That pretty much just sums it up.

    We did a pretty through discussion in this thread, and in a few others in the past that pretty much sum up why pickups are handled the way they are, and why it really can't be changed. Including discussing the evils or randomization.

    Most of us agree we could do without the onscreen clock, slightly difficult times to count as they are now (ie: 55 instead of 60 etc.), and maybe a couple other very minor tweaks but anything else would be too major.

    So if you have beef with the concept of powerup control, and timing sheild, your best bet is to find a mod where it's not present, because if it's there, it will inevitabley be a focus.

    The only way to really comprimise is to simply rid the game of the aspets that you don't like. Mutators like evenground, or nopowerups, allweapons, stuff like that. DM will simply stay DM.

    Though the more I think about it, the irony of how Team Arena Master is a seemingly more accurate description of Deathmatch, and the vice versa is true as well, is quite humorus.
     
  20. lotus1984

    lotus1984 New Member

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    replying to t2a it's possible to play both TAM and DM, i'm not saying TAM>DM, i like them both, simply they requires differents skills. TAM doesn't requires timing skill and needs less tactics.. but reguarding everything else a tamer is AT LEAST good in moving and using every weapon as a dmer. Tam is not all about hitscan, i'm quite a good tamer and i do most of my kills shock comboing or running into opponents with rockets and flack primary, and i spam a few as i do in DM1on1. TAM exist for people who prefere concentrate on using weapons instead of picking them up. But if player A defeats player B in TAM it means A is better in aiming and movements, so if B wins in DM it's quite obvious pick ups do the difference. It seems so clear to me isn't it?
     

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